Cities that belong in other states

[PhillyRising]

Originally Posted by pj3000

So you're touting Philadelphia's influence on the rest of PA.... well, yeah we're all well aware of that strong influence... and it also has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The topic is in fact the opposite. Philadelphia is not nearly as strongly influenced by the rest of PA as it is by NY/NJ... but keep telling us about buying Amish goods at Reading Terminal, that's real cute. Great contribution. Oh yeah, and almost forgot, lol.

Stick to the social media apps. We're grown ups on here (sometimes).

I don't think we are influenced by just NY/NJ per se but that we just view the entire I-95 corridor as our peerage. DC/Baltimore/Newark/New York and Boston are more like us than Altoona, Johnstown, Pittsburgh and Erie.

I went to college in Western PA and never understood the outright contempt yinzers have for Philadelphia. It's like why? The only thing Philly did to Pittsburgh was when US Airways/American decided to ditch PGH as a hub and consolidate it into PHL..leaving Pittsburgh with this airport built for a hub half empty.

There is barely a sports rivalry...the Flyers have been bad for a while until this year so the only rivarly was with the evil Potbellied Snowchickens...and even that has waned. Nobody here cares or views the Steelers or Pirates like we would say New York or Boston. If the Steelers were in the Super Bowl and not playing the Eagles...we'd probably root for the Steelers.

It like Southeastern PA and Western PA are more like third cousins while Baltimore/New Jersey and New York are our first cousins. We just know them better....and they'll make a hoagie better than the rest of PA but not as good as you can get in Philadelphia.

[PhillyRising]

Originally Posted by summersm343

It's tough because I do both agree and disagree with your statements.

While modern day Philadelphia would probably be far more progressive and better off if it were in the state of New Jersey, and in many ways Pennsylvania holds Philadelphia back, I do think Philadelphia and it's surrounding suburban counties in the state are quintessential Pennsylvania. The reality is that Pennsylvania just needs to show Philadelphia more respect. Philadelphia is quite literally where the state was founded, was the first state capital, is home to a lot of the state's and country's early history, and is the de facto #1 economic region of the state today. The lack of transit funding, highway cleaning and funding, public education funding for the city, lack of common sense business laws and regulations, and lack of common sense gun laws are just some of the ways the state holds Philadelphia (and really all of it's cities) back.

Philadelphia is certainly tied to South Jersey, and Camden, Burlington and Gloucester counties are heavily tied to the city.... and the South Jersey shore towns are chock full of beach houses owned by Philadelphian's or residents of the surrounding PA suburban counties... but the undoubted center of the region is Philadelphia, lower Montgomery County, and inner-Delaware County. The city, the airport, places like Media and Upper Darby in Delaware County, the Main Line (the wealthiest and most prestigious suburbs in not only the Philadelphia region, but all of Pennsylvania), King of Prussia, Conshohocken, Willow Grove/Abington/Jenkintown/Glenside area...sort-of everything within the rough circle created by I-476, the Pennsylvania Turnpike, and I-295 in South Jersey is the center of the Philadelphia region. The majority of that is within Pennsylvania.

Furthermore, the 6 Philadelphia counties in Pennsylvania in the Philadelphia MSA/CSA are 6 of the 10 largest counties in the state of Pennsylvania. The largest county is the city of Philadelphia. Two more of the largest counties in PA directly abut the Philadelphia Region - Lancaster and Lehigh Counties. That's over 5 Million in total population in the state in those 8 out of 10 largest Pennsylvania counties. That's literally 40% of the states population.

So yes, I would say Philadelphia is absolutely quintessential Pennsylvania and really acts as the center of Pennsylvania. It's the #1 economic hub and the most populous part of the state.

Fun facts:

Southeastern Pennsylvania generates 42% of Pennsylvania's economic activity and is 38% of the State's Tax Base based on a 2020 report by Econsul Solutions based in Philadelphia.

That sounds about right. I mean three three richest counties are Chester, Montgomery and Bucks.

You figure the Pittsburgh metro puts in another decent chunk. It shows that the Conservative T of PA doesn't really pay for much of anything but they think they do.

[Crawford]

For me, the thing is that Philly is a quintessential NE corridor city, but PA is the biggest outlier among the NE corridor states. It's a bit of a weird fit.

Philly has the colonial history, the Uber-establishment Main Line, a big, badass core & transit system, an Ivy League university, and PA, as a state, is very purple, middle income, average education, not many immigrants, very white, very Americana, high school football and the like. In many ways PA feels closer to OH than a NY, MA or MD. This election season it will be grouped with the Michigans and Wisconsins of America.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

For me, the thing is that Philly is a quintessential NE corridor city, but PA is the biggest outlier among the NE corridor states. It's a bit of a weird fit.

Philly has the colonial history, the Uber-establishment Main Line, a big, badass core & transit system, an Ivy League university, and PA, as a state, is very purple, middle income, average education, not many immigrants, very white, very Americana, high school football and the like. In many ways PA feels closer to OH than a NY, MA or MD. This election season it will be grouped with the Michigans and Wisconsins of America.

Because the "northeast" has become (erroneously) synonymous with the east coast. Get more inland and away from the big urban centers and the northeast is typical of any other region outside of their urban centers.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Crawford

For me, the thing is that Philly is a quintessential NE corridor city, but PA is the biggest outlier among the NE corridor states. It's a bit of a weird fit.

Philly has the colonial history, the Uber-establishment Main Line, a big, badass core & transit system, an Ivy League university, and PA, as a state, is very purple, middle income, average education, not many immigrants, very white, very Americana, high school football and the like. In many ways PA feels closer to OH than a NY, MA or MD. This election season it will be grouped with the Michigans and Wisconsins of America.

I don't disagree with you but the center of locus in the state is changing rapidly. This is after decades of unequal growth within the state (SE versus the rest of the state). With the exception of Bucks County, all of the Philly collar counties are quite solidly blue now. Income and job growth are outpacing peer states and at historic highs for the region. In this part of the state, HHI and education far exceed national averages.

And this growth is extending beyond the Philly area to include the Lehigh Valley and SC PA (Lancaster, York, Cumberland Counties, etc). Being on the ground, it feels as though the area is quite dynamic.

Yes, what you say is true but there is a bigger divide than ever between this region and the rest of the state but given unequal growth rates, the rest of the state is losing power. It feels as though this dynamic finally has some velocity.

In our redistricting process, a number of districts (at the state level) were simply eliminating in the western and northern parts of the state and plopped into the SE. I think there were 3 of them. This trend will only continue. Future projections have the state's population stagnating through 2050 but Philly's population growing by close to 300k people. The trend will only continue.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by PhillyRising

I don't think we are influenced by just NY/NJ per se but that we just view the entire I-95 corridor as our peerage. DC/Baltimore/Newark/New York and Boston are more like us than Altoona, Johnstown, Pittsburgh and Erie.

Sure, and that just points to geographic location and history. With that peer influence comes more of a shared culture, more than Phildelphia has with most of its own state, like you mention. And that's why I was saying that it "belongs" in another state in the context of this particular thread. It's a complete hypothetical and not a slight on Philly at all, nor trying to suggest that Philly is somehow not "true" Pennsylvania. Again, it is obviously the very reason for the state's existence, just like NYC is the very reason for New York state's existence.

Originally Posted by PhillyRising

I went to college in Western PA and never understood the outright contempt yinzers have for Philadelphia. It's like why? The only thing Philly did to Pittsburgh was when US Airways/American decided to ditch PGH as a hub and consolidate it into PHL..leaving Pittsburgh with this airport built for a hub half empty.

There is barely a sports rivalry...the Flyers have been bad for a while until this year so the only rivarly was with the evil Potbellied Snowchickens...and even that has waned. Nobody here cares or views the Steelers or Pirates like we would say New York or Boston. If the Steelers were in the Super Bowl and not playing the Eagles...we'd probably root for the Steelers.

It like Southeastern PA and Western PA are more like third cousins while Baltimore/New Jersey and New York are our first cousins. We just know them better....and they'll make a hoagie better than the rest of PA but not as good as you can get in Philadelphia.

And my comments have never been a Philly-Pittsburgh rivalry thing, nor do I have any interest in expoloring that crap (mainly because to me and to most people that I've come into contact with in Pittsburgh and Philly... it doesn't even actually exist... except maybe kind of with hockey, but no one really gives a shit about hockey anyway).

But you find regional, tribal-ish, mainly perceived city rivalries all over the place. And it's really just a rather baseless distaste for the "other".

Cleveland and Cincinnati "hate" each other for no real reason other than that they are different because they are located in very different regions of the same state. This goes for Philadelphia and Pittsburgh as well. Dallas and Houston "hate" each other because Houston is more blue collar and Dallas is more uppity (Dallas and Ft. Worth also have a rivalry for the same reason). Though not in the same state, Chicago and St. Louis have a rivalry... not sure why, but seems like that. Everywhere else in Florida hates Miami and vice versa. New Orleans considers Shreveport and anywhere in northern Louisiana "yankees". Bay Area and Southern California "hate" each other. Philadelphia and New York have a city rivalry (though it's pretty much one-sided it seems)... etc. etc. etc.

But all in all, it's perfectly natural that Philadelphians don't really perceive Pittsburgh as a peer city or a rival, and it really goes both ways. If you're talking to some dumb yinzer who pretty much only watches sports and has barely ever left SW PA, then yeah, he probably will show contempt for Philly, but a yinzer like that has contempt for pretty much everything... and he definitely has a counterpart in Philly somewhere (probably Delco) Most well-adjusted people don't care or have the time or energy for this make-believe world.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Though not in the same state, Chicago and St. Louis have a rivalry... not sure why.

St. Louis was "supposed" to be the alpha metropolis of the interior, but then Chicago flashed outta nowhere like a lightning bolt and stole much of its thunder.

It was a much more palpable thing a century ago when that usurpation was fresher in the mind; now it's mostly just a silly baseball and hockey thing.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

For me, the thing is that Philly is a quintessential NE corridor city, but PA is the biggest outlier among the NE corridor states. It's a bit of a weird fit.

I don't think PA is that different from NYS in this regard, but you raise a good point about Philly being a NE corridor city. The NE corridor kind of functions like a de facto state. There's the historical and cultural aspect and also there's a lot of coordination between these cities and states on transit and road infrastructure. Although NYS also has a large population that falls outside of the NE corridor, Tthe population of NYS is so much tilted to NYC that the city just kind of drowns out everything else. OTOH, Philadelphia isn't as domineering over the rest of PA, so the divisions are more visible.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Bay Area and Southern California "hate" each other.

Clarification: many people in the Bay Area hate LA, particularly Giants fans. People in LA don't generally know that, however, and think of the Bay Area as a fun weekend getaway.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

St. Louis was "supposed" to be the alpha metropolis of the interior, but then Chicago flashed outta nowhere like a lightning bolt and stole much of its thunder.

It was a much more palpable thing a century ago when that usurpation was fresher in the mind; now it's mostly just a silly baseball and hockey thing.

Oh right, I now recall you guys talking about this in ther threads over the years. Interesting that it happened so quickly with the opening up of the country via water and rail, with Chicago being in the prime position for all east-west and north-south commerce... becoming THE hub, just like NYC did earlier.

It's basically the same situation between New York and Philadelphia, both vying to be the alpha throuhout the 19th century, with PA and NY being the two largest and most important states by far. Philadelphia was the nerve center of the nation during the Revolution under the continental congress and confederation, then trading national capital status with New York under congress prior to it becoming DC.

But in terms of importance and influence, once NYC built the Erie Canal the competition was all but over. We've discussed this on here before, but it's an interesting look at how certain efforts and decisions, as well as geography, shaped the two cities, their positions of importance, and the nation's history.

Overall, Philadelphia was the more parochial and conservative, while New York was the more objective and progressive. It hearkens back to philosphies of Dutch mercantilism focused on shipping, trade, and finance vs. Quaker domesticity focused on community agriculture and manufacturing. Or the later important marks of status difference in the two cities, Philadelphia: What is your family lineage?; New York: How much money do you have?

New York envisioned itself as the capital of the Empire, and planned and took setps into the interior to fuel massive growth, whereas Philadelphia reveled in its "greene countrie towne" and surrounding countryside. New York was incredibly successful in integrating its entire state into its progress from relatively early on, while Philly only reacted when it realized its port was going to suffer due to the Erie and Chesapeake & Ohio canals, with its Pennsylvania Railroad and canal system to Pittsburgh and into the Ohio Valley... but it was just too late and didn't make the connection to the Great Lakes until even later in the game.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I don't think PA is that different from NYS in this regard, but you raise a good point about Philly being a NE corridor city. The NE corridor kind of functions like a de facto state. There's the historical and cultural aspect and also there's a lot of coordination between these cities and states on transit and road infrastructure. Although NYS also has a large population that falls outside of the NE corridor, Tthe population of NYS is so much tilted to NYC that the city just kind of drowns out everything else. OTOH, Philadelphia isn't as domineering over the rest of PA, so the divisions are more visible.

Right, I think is kinda the gist of my original point. And I think NYC even has a bit of that same domineering effect over a decent chunk of eastern PA... area that would otherwise be Philly's "territory". While the rest of PA has nearly nothing to do with NYC, not influenced at all by it.

[AviationGuy]

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

This. You would not believe how many people I encounter who think Kansas City is in Kansas. And of course, there really is a KCK, but it's not what one usually means when one says "Kansas City."

I was really surprised at this when I moved here. Even when I was a kid I knew Kansas City was in Missouri.

Frankly, rather than move KC into Kansas, I think they should instead rename Kansas City (MO of course). There's a "Missouri City" not far from KC, and maybe they could merge, but I don't think the folks of Missouri City would take kindly to that.

A better idea I thought of would be to change the name of KCMO to "Truman." There's tons of Truman-this and Truman-that around here, so it would be a natural thing to use for a city name.

"Truman, Missouri."

So the Chiefs would become the Truman Chiefs and the Royals would become the Truman Royals.

Or maybe you use "Truman City." Then it would be the Truman City Chiefs and the Truman City Royals.

Since Truman was a democrat republicans might get upset. Too bad. There's all kinds of Lincoln-stuff in Illinois even though Lincoln was a republican and Illinois is dominated by democrats.

I was at a conference in downtown Kansas City (MO) about 20 years ago. One of the prominent speakers started out by thanking the people of Kansas for their hospitality. There was a chuckle among the audience, and she looked perplexed. Later on, someone told her, and she later apologized about her gaffe.

[jbermingham123]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

St. Louis was "supposed" to be the alpha metropolis of the interior, but then Chicago flashed outta nowhere like a lightning bolt and stole much of its thunder.

It was a much more palpable thing a century ago when that usurpation was fresher in the mind; now it's mostly just a silly baseball and hockey thing.

What really added to the bitterness on STL's end was the fact that it was St. Louis's own damn fault.

ALL the railroads wanted St. Louis, not Chicago, to be their central hub.

St. Louis is far more centrally located. The number of cities one could get to in a single day's train ride from St. Louis was greater than any other city in the US at that time, despite it being somewhat on the western periphery, because of its location at the intersection of the river and the flatlands. Even if you go around the appalachians to the east, the piedmont region from Virginia down to Alabama is still rugged enough that the fastest route from New Orleans to New York was via STL. Its straight and flat the whole way up and over until you get to basically Columbus, Ohio.

Chicago, which was also on the western periphery, was additionally on the northern periphery. The "big cities" we always think of as being close to Chicago, like Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Des Moines, Indianapolis, and even Detroit, were tiny at the time.

Anyway, in a spectacular example of good old American shortsightedness, the initial attempts by the big railroads to create a hub were sabotaged by St. Louis's leadership, because of lobbying by the riverboat companies.

They convinced everyone that the railroads would replace the employment of tens of thousands of workers, with just a few engineers who needed only to pass through (unlike boats, trains dont need to be loaded and unloaded except at their destination), destroy the city's living connection to its river heritage, all with NO benefit to the city itself, as the profits would just to go east coast railroad barons like Vanderbilt.

A large station and railyard was eventually built, but the critical few years of initial setback was enough to give Chicago the edge, and the rest is history. Indirectly, that initial setback is also largely responsible for the growth of Omaha, which would today look more like, say, Sioux Falls, if not for the northern rail route becoming the main line.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

St. Louis was "supposed" to be the alpha metropolis of the interior, but then Chicago flashed outta nowhere like a lightning bolt and stole much of its thunder.

It was a much more palpable thing a century ago when that usurpation was fresher in the mind; now it's mostly just a silly baseball and hockey thing.

It was because of the railroads. For a while the Mississippi River was too big to build a railroad bridge across, so Chicago got all the action. If you can still find it in a Barnes & Noble I'd recommend buying that edition of Rails magazine, if you're interested in Chicago and railroad stuff.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

It was because of the railroads. For a while the Mississippi River was too big to build a railroad bridge across, so Chicago got all the action. If you can still find it in a Barnes & Noble I'd recommend buying that edition of Rails magazine, if you're interested in Chicago and railroad stuff.

And the railroads came to center on Chicago because of its geographic location on the Lakes. Chicago had a much more advantageous location than St. Louis for the time period.

Because once the steel industry really started cookin' post Civil War, the Lakes-borne import of iron ore set up Chicago to be the hub of the interior... the main interior node for transportation and heavy manufacturing of steel... which in turn only expanded the railroads that much more.

Similarly, Cleveland blew by Cincinnati.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Similarly, Cleveland blew by Cincinnati.

Cleveland, like St. Louis, strikes me as a city that could have been a lot more today if a few pivotal decisions had been altered. It's maybe the early 20th century version of St. Louis?

Cleveland has these huge, sorta hollowed out legacy attributes. A necklace of Rockefeller parks, Shaker Heights was built with amazing amenities for the elite, a ridiculous art museum and symphony, Terminal Tower was the tallest building on earth outside of NYC, etc. It boomed a bit earlier than Detroit, a bit later than Buffalo, and really piled up on the bedrock City Beautiful-era legacy assets.

[FromSD]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Cleveland, like St. Louis, strikes me as a city that could have been a lot more today if a few pivotal decisions had been altered. It's maybe the early 20th century version of St. Louis?

Interesting, but what were the pivotal decisions that undercut Cleveland's future growth?

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

St. Louis was "supposed" to be the alpha metropolis of the interior, but then Chicago flashed outta nowhere like a lightning bolt and stole much of its thunder.

It was a much more palpable thing a century ago when that usurpation was fresher in the mind; now it's mostly just a silly baseball and hockey thing.

There would be a room for a massive St. Louis despite Chicago. If Dallas can have 8 million in our world, in an alternate one, there would be a room for a 7-8 million people St. Louis.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Yuri

There would be a room for a massive St. Louis despite Chicago. If Dallas can have 8 million in our world, in an alternate one, there would be a room for a 7-8 million people St. Louis.

Lots of things COULD have happened.

But what actually happened is what happened.

Chicago came outta relative nowhere in the latter half of the 19th century and blew past St. Louis and never looked back.

And a large part of the reason for that usurpation was "trains", but that was only a part of the story.

If anyone is really curious about the how and why of Chicago's meteoric rise in the 19th century, I can't stress the following book enough.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by Yuri

There would be a room for a massive St. Louis despite Chicago. If Dallas can have 8 million in our world, in an alternate one, there would be a room for a 7-8 million people St. Louis.

Dallas doesn't have 8 million. Dallas has 5 1/2 million AND Fort Worth has 2 1/2 million.

[Bailey]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

St. Louis was "supposed" to be the alpha metropolis of the interior, but then Chicago flashed outta nowhere like a lightning bolt and stole much of its thunder.

It was a much more palpable thing a century ago when that usurpation was fresher in the mind; now it's mostly just a silly baseball and hockey thing.

Chicago didn't flash out of nowhere...it was a strategically placed satellite city/ investment to serve the Northeast cities and their ports.

Once the Erie Canal was completed in 1821, the northeast cities needed a trading post to connect the Mississippi through the Great Lakes to the Atlantic.....hence, the boom of Chicago.

Yes, St. Louis was on the Mississippi but it's purpose quickly turned to serve Chicago which in turn would funnel exports to the northeast cities.