PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[crackpinky]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Gee, we're living in the major American city with the highest poverty rate which is experiencing exploding unemployment. Let's cut city services.

There aren't exactly good answers here. Some city services will need to be cut, taxes will have to go up. Hopefully the federal government will step up to fill in the gaps.

• Video Link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chMCU5VSuqw

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Cutting services isn't desirable, but it's actually feasible. You can't get blood from a stone. Let's all hope we can find a way out of this mess.

It is feasible to cut services. We agree, that's why I said they'll need to cut services. And the city agrees too, they're cutting services.

If you look at the actual tax increases, they're largely not even increases, they're a delay in a planned reduction of business and wage taxes. Beyond that, certain service fees are being increased and they're eliminating and early payment tax reduction. The blood from a stone doesn't really apply here, these are largely taxes people are already paying. The one group that is seeing an actual tax increase are out of city workers.

Again, it's a global pandemic and major economic disaster. There are no easy choices. Quibble with the decisions made, but hard to imagine a scenario where tax increases aren't going to be a piece of this puzzle. And while I'd like Philly to get it's taxes more in step with other comparable cities as much as the next guy, remember, this is going to be happening everywhere. Other cities, suburbs. Everywhere. This isn't a Philadelphia thing.

EDIT: There will be some easy choices. Such as posting relevant classic Simpsons clips whenever possible, but that's always been true.

[ScreamShatter]

Kenney proposed increase of Property Tax by 4% too, I believe.

People WFH outside the city now get to avoid the wage tax, pushing all the tax burden on city residents. How exactly is that fair either?

The tough reality Phillys poor are a major drain on city services. The middle don’t use city services as much. They can’t be responsible for shouldering all the tax burden either as they are also victims in this mess too.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Kenney proposed increase of Property Tax by 4% too, I believe.

People WFH outside the city now get to avoid the wage tax, pushing all the tax burden on city residents. How exactly is that fair either?

I heard about the property tax increase as well, though it is not included in the article you linked. Looks like they're starting with more low hanging fruit.

To be clear about the outside the city wage tax, this isn't a Philadelphia decision. That's how the laws work. If people aren't working in the city, Philly isn't entitled to tax their wages. It's unfortunate because the city already shoulders an extremely disproportionate burden of the region's tax burden. But it is what it is and gives more context as to why Philly finds itself in such a difficult position.

BTW. After linking the article that set off this discussion, I thought you were done talking about taxes because it always creates issues here? For future reference, I think tax discussions here would go a lot smoother if certain members didn't immediately use them as springboard to jump into needlessly inflammatory rhetoric like this :

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

The tough reality Phillys poor are a major drain on city services.

[ScreamShatter]

^ Don’t be offended by people stating reality. Be it pretty or not. The truth is the city’s poor consume more city benefits than they pay in taxes. And the only way to provide those benefits is by Philly attracting middle class and higher income people who consume less benefits to support those social programs. If the city pushes the middle out, so go the social programs we have.

Again, don’t be upset over the truth being stated. Be upset with the system all you like. It deserves due scrutiny.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

^ Don’t be offended by people stating reality. Be it pretty or not. The truth is the city’s poor consume more city benefits than they pay in taxes. And the only way to provide those benefits is by Philly attracting middle class and higher income people who consume less benefits to support those social programs. If the city pushes the middle out, so go the social programs we have.

Again, don’t be upset over the truth being stated. Be upset with the system all you like. It deserves due scrutiny.

1. If that is true, its true across the board, its not a "Philly issue"
2. Such simplistic analysis only looks at certain taxes, usually the taxes middle to upper middle class residents are most focused on like property and wage taxes. Philly has a LOT more taxes than that that are paid by all residents. And a flat tax is regressive so while lower income workers per capita pay less wage tax, overall it's likely a flat out lie to claim that middle class (and let's be honest, we are talking about college educated, above average middle class folks) are paying the bulk of taxes.
3. If you are low income, but working, the reality is you likely don't qualify for much of anything in terms of "free" services. The working poor are in the worst possible situation, they make too much to get full access to the safety net but make too little to live comfortably. Thats the situation a lot of people are in, the threshold for most poverty programs is extremely low.

[ScreamShatter]

It is true. It is a national issue, but it impacts Philly more bc roughly 30% of the city’s population is below poverty line compared to 12% nationally.

Regarding tax structure, “Philadelphia has the highest local wage tax in the country — and the city relies on it for about 44 percent of its annual revenue.” (See link). Most of this is generated from middle income workers since the wealthy avoid such taxes. The next largest bucket is property taxes, which are mostly being paid by the middle to upper classes (think Rittenhouse, Society Hill, NoLibs, Fairmount, Chestnut Hill, etc).

No part of my post is critical of the poor, I agree they need help. But we need to be factual that even with the highest taxes in the country, we don’t have enough to offset the cost of the programs used to help the poor. Given that middle income earners are the most sensitive to taxes, i fear Philly raises taxes and infrastructure continues to get worse and the middle flee the city, which ends up forcing deeper cuts to social programs for the poor. In short, we need a national solution bc localized socialism doesn’t work well since there are massive income inequalities between municipalities.

It’s not an easy situation. But we need to be realistic about the cause and effects of all these decisions.


https://www.inquirer.com/news/wage-t...-20190515.html

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/researc...n-poverty-2019

[Knight Hospitaller]

I take the blame for getting a tax discussion started, but I applaud the reasonable and polite discourse on the subject (which sometimes goes off the rails).

[reparcsyks]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

It is true. It is a national issue, but it impacts Philly more bc roughly 30% of the city’s population is below poverty line compared to 12% nationally.

Regarding tax structure, “Philadelphia has the highest local wage tax in the country — and the city relies on it for about 44 percent of its annual revenue.” (See link). Most of this is generated from middle income workers since the wealthy avoid such taxes. The next largest bucket is property taxes, which are mostly being paid by the middle to upper classes (think Rittenhouse, Society Hill, NoLibs, Fairmount, Chestnut Hill, etc).

No part of my post is critical of the poor, I agree they need help. But we need to be factual that even with the highest taxes in the country, we don’t have enough to offset the cost of the programs used to help the poor. Given that middle income earners are the most sensitive to taxes, i fear Philly raises taxes and infrastructure continues to get worse and the middle flee the city, which ends up forcing deeper cuts to social programs for the poor. In short, we need a national solution bc localized socialism doesn’t work well.

It’s not an easy situation. But we need to be realistic about the cause and effects of all these decisions.


https://www.inquirer.com/news/wage-t...-20190515.html

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/researc...n-poverty-2019

What's maddening about America, and Philly as a microcosm, is that the answer to all of our problems is education. If you can fix education, it will magically erase a host of other problems. How do we fix education?

• Starting salary for teachers is $150,000/year with amazing benefits
• Clean, modern school buildings
• Highly nutritious school food

Basically, if we devote the resources we spend going to war into an aggressive push to educate our children, we'll see a societal shift in 20-25 years.

[ScreamShatter]

Agree so much, Reparcsyks. It won’t solve everything, but it touches huge chunks of all the biggest problems in this country.

Knight, I’m guilty too. Ha. I love this topic and hope it doesn’t go off the rails. As long as everyone treats each other respectfully and though they are speaking with no ill-intent or bias, it could be a great and engaging exchange of info and ideas.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

^ Don’t be offended by people stating reality. Be it pretty or not. The truth is the city’s poor consume more city benefits than they pay in taxes. And the only way to provide those benefits is by Philly attracting middle class and higher income people who consume less benefits to support those social programs. If the city pushes the middle out, so go the social programs we have.

Again, don’t be upset over the truth being stated. Be upset with the system all you like. It deserves due scrutiny.

First off, the truth here is subjective. You're not going to have a productive discussion about anything if you think your perspective is the "truth." Second off, most of this city's poor are in a generational cycle of poverty that is incredibly hard to break and were largely placed in such positions through external measures such as redlining, poor education systems, systematic racism etc. They're people in unfortunate circumstances and describing them as a "drain" on city resources will be found by many as distasteful.

You can say what you wish, but you mentioned yourself you enjoy talking about tax policy, and I'm just letting you know that if you approach such discussions with a bit more tact, I think it'd go a long way in having actually productive conversations about the topic. Especially considering, policy wise, I don't think you'd actually catch much disagreement for most here and overall I think this discussion has been pretty respectful.

100% agree with you and reparcsyks that education is sort of the central issue at hand here and drastic improvement in that area in the long run will pay dividends like basically nothing else we could do. But as with so much, it's just so incredibly hard for Philadelphia to address on it's own without state or federal intervention.

With all that is going on right now, Philadelphia school children are already at such an extreme disadvantage as unlike a lot of suburban districts, kids didn't already have laptops and other tools that make distance learning possible. And so now, when arguably they need more funding then ever to try and close these gaps, instead, even though the city is clearly prioritizing other things first, if the economy doesn't rebound quickly, they're likely going to have cut the school district budget even further.

I don't see how things are truly fixed without fundamental changes to how school funding is accomplished. School funding should really be done at a much more regional level. Every suburb of Philadelphia enjoys higher wages and a higher standard of living because of their proximity to Philadelphia and its job market. But because of arbitrary lines drawn centuries ago those who live within the city limits pay such an extremely disproportionate price to keep the economic hub of this region functioning, while everyone else reaps the benefits.

Hopefully the one good thing about all of this, is that as we dig ourselves out of this rut there will be a unique opportunity to make some more fundamental changes that would have been impossible if the status quo just kept chugging along.

[ScreamShatter]

^ 100% agreed, especially on education and how the key to fixing it is through regional funding. I’ve thought that same thought many times, and I wish there were a new tax level aligned to MSA or CSA regions as a way to coordinate better across counties, towns, and cities. Will never happen. But a nice thought.

As for your first 2 paragraphs, my intent with the word “drain” wasn’t meant from a social commentary, rather as a large recurring expense to the budget from a programmatic standpoint; in my industry, terms like ‘budget drains’ or more colorful language like ‘time sucks’ are common place, and that’s perfectly fine that we all bring a different POV to the table. I respect your opinion about that wording choice. At the end of the day, no one here is expressing views with malice. I’m confident that we can find ways to express our thoughts without assuming the worst in others.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

^ 100% agreed, especially on education and how the key to fixing it is through regional funding. I’ve thought that same thought many times, and I wish there were a new tax level aligned to MSA or CSA regions as a way to coordinate better across counties, towns, and cities. Will never happen. But a nice thought.

As for your first 2 paragraphs, my intent with the word “drain” wasn’t meant from a social commentary, rather as a large recurring expense to the budget from a programmatic standpoint; in my industry, terms like ‘budget drains’ or more colorful language like ‘time sucks’ are common place, and that’s perfectly fine that we all bring a different POV to the table. I respect your opinion about that wording choice. At the end of the day, no one here is expressing views with malice. I’m confident that we can find ways to express our thoughts without assuming the worst in others.

I think it's abundantly clear, especially as the discussion has progressed, that there was no malice intended, so no worries there. And to be clear I wasn't accusing you of malice.

While not directly about development, this whole situation and how the city responds, which services they cut, which taxes they increase, is certain to effect development for years to come. So I really do think it's a worthwhile and relevant discussion here. But it is a hot button issue and throw in discussion of the city's poverty issues and we're all walking dangerously close to the third rail. Which is fine, but I think it's worth just being cognizant of that and choosing words carefully so we don't inadvertently devolve into a mess. That's all I was saying.

[ScreamShatter]

Agreed. Well said. :-)

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

It is true. It is a national issue, but it impacts Philly more bc roughly 30% of the city’s population is below poverty line compared to 12% nationally.

Regarding tax structure, “Philadelphia has the highest local wage tax in the country — and the city relies on it for about 44 percent of its annual revenue.” (See link). Most of this is generated from middle income workers since the wealthy avoid such taxes. The next largest bucket is property taxes, which are mostly being paid by the middle to upper classes (think Rittenhouse, Society Hill, NoLibs, Fairmount, Chestnut Hill, etc).

No part of my post is critical of the poor, I agree they need help. But we need to be factual that even with the highest taxes in the country, we don’t have enough to offset the cost of the programs used to help the poor. Given that middle income earners are the most sensitive to taxes, i fear Philly raises taxes and infrastructure continues to get worse and the middle flee the city, which ends up forcing deeper cuts to social programs for the poor. In short, we need a national solution bc localized socialism doesn’t work well since there are massive income inequalities between municipalities.

It’s not an easy situation. But we need to be realistic about the cause and effects of all these decisions.


https://www.inquirer.com/news/wage-t...-20190515.html

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/researc...n-poverty-2019

Everyone who owns a home or rents pays property tax, its just a matter of who gets the bill. Renters pay property tax via their landlords so its overly simplistic to say middle class homeowners pay "most" of the property taxes. Every rental property has a property tax bill- the owners can only make their payments because they collect rent. And many of the pricier rental properties are abated so they surely arent contributing much.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Everyone who owns a home or rents pays property tax, its just a matter of who gets the bill. Renters pay property tax via their landlords so its overly simplistic to say middle class homeowners pay "most" of the property taxes. Every rental property has a property tax bill- the owners can only make their payments because they collect rent. And many of the pricier rental properties are abated so they surely arent contributing much.

You are complicating a topic that isn’t that complicated. The city’s yearly budget is 45% wage tax, which mostly comes from middle income workers in the city and burbs. That’s a fact.

Regarding property taxes, most low income city dwellers are concentrated in certain areas with much lower property values that haven’t had a property reassessment in a long time, and are part of programs that forgive most the property tax. If you look up the data, you’ll see the majority of property tax revenue is being generated from Rittenhouse, Society Hill, Fairmount, NoLibs, Chestnut Hill, etc.

Pricier rental properties are tax abated, but they paid the 4% property transfer tax at buy and sell which offsets the tax abatements itself.

None of this is to say, low income people don’t pay taxes. They do (not disputing that or their economic impact). However, if you look at the amount they pay in city taxes and the cost of social services for them and their families, they are consuming more than they pay.

[Jayfar]

Note too that abated properties do in fact pay property tax on the assessed value of the land under their buildings. And the City's assessors have in many cases increased the proportion of a property's value assigned to the land in their more recent assessments.

[mcgrath618]

Did... did we just have a civil political discussion on SSP? In the year of our Lord 2020?

Am I dreaming?

[reparcsyks]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

None of this is to say, low income people don’t pay taxes. They do (not disputing that or their economic impact). However, if you look at the amount they pay in city taxes and the cost of social services for them and their families, they are consuming more than they pay.

Of course they do. Look at the diet of people in poverty. A lack of education about nutrition leads to a diet of convenience that is incredibly unhealthy, which drains city resources.

A lack of education leads to poor self worth, which results in litter. It results in hopelessness, which leads to crime. It results in ignorance, which allows them to be taken advantage of financially. All of these things consume and drain our resources.

If I could snap my fingers and change two things in Philly right now:

1. Fix our schools -- and when I say fix, I mean teach our children about Constitutional Law, how investing works, how the economy works, how to make your own food.

2. Create a massive urban farm initiative -- we should be growing food in the city in large quantities, both indoor and outdoor. I'd see Philly pioneer urban farming.

[Londonee]

Drove around the city a bit yesterday as I had to pick up some Vodka from Stateside - nice to see most of the large scale construction sites up that way were up and running. Construction seems to be slowly coming alive again.

One note, the amount of litter on some of the city's highways is appalling. I mean, Mumbai has cleaner major roadways. There are some pieces of trash that I've been taking mental notes of - don't judge - that have been in the same place for nearly 6months. How is it even possible to sweep this infrequently on main arterials in a 1st world country? Is this a classic city vs. PennDot pissing contest - where we all lose?