NEW YORK | Empire Station District | 9 Towers (18-20 msf)| FT | FLOORS

[Busy Bee]

These people...

[NYguy]

The person who wrote this article doesn't understand that part of the environmental review is to look at the alternatives - in this case there are 3 "options" - before moving forward with the preferred alternative. Everyone knows the expansion will be south, but the alternatives have to be looked at anyway. Only when the "preferred alternative" is announced will it become official.

Keep that in mind when reading through this. None of this is new.



https://nypost.com/2023/09/19/penn-s...-plans-reveal/

Penn Station expansion could balloon beyond single block, hit whopping $16.7B, new plans reveal


By Nolan Hicks
Sep. 19, 2023

The MTA’s controversial plan to demolish a block of Midtown to expand Penn Station has grown even larger and $4 billion more expensive — with a price tag that could now approach $17 billion, records show.

Newly revised schematics reviewed by The Post call for a terminal that would be far larger than the massive $11 billion one just dug under Manhattan’s Grand Central Terminal for the new Long Island Rail Road station — a project that ran so late and over budget it became a poster child for mismanagement.

The new Pennsylvania Station is being designed to fit extra trains to run under the Hudson River after the completion of the $16 billion Gateway Project. That project involves the construction of a new tunnel linking New York and New Jersey and refurbishing existing century-old Penn tracks that were badly damaged by Superstorm Sandy.

Originally, plans were to build an eight-track extension that would be largely confined to one block and carry an estimated price tag of $13 billion.

But the 200-plus-page revised Penn Station engineering document — developed in coordination with Amtrak and New Jersey Transit — lays out three new plans for the expansion.

The first proposal would dig a cavern to build a 12-track station that would be split across two levels — and be 50% larger than the LIRR’s Grand Central Madison station — at an estimated cost of $16.7 billion.

The project would be mostly contained within the block between Seventh and Eighth avenues from 30th to 31st streets.

But the proposed 12-track station would no longer fit with the connections that are supposed to link it to the new Hudson River tunnel being built as part of the Gateway project, forcing officials to spend more than $280 million to redo the work.

The second proposal calls for a new nine-track station that would be split across two levels. It would allow the MTA to use the existing tunnels linking the station to the Gateway tunnel.

But the document warns that the nine-track proposal would likely sprawl well beyond Seventh Avenue to the east — potentially a third of the way to Sixth Avenue.

“[The station] would be located primarily … between Seventh and Eighth avenues and between West 30th and West 31st streets,” it states. “The station area would extend under these streets and would also occupy [the block between 30th and 31st streets and Eighth and Ninth avenues] to the west and more of [the block between 30th and 31st streets and Sixth and Seventh avenues] east of Seventh Avenue.”

That plan would cost an estimated $12.3 billion.

The third proposal would build a 10-track terminal to the north of Penn Station, beneath Herald Square — contained in the block bound by Sixth and Seventh Avenues between 33rd and 34th streets, which currently contains a Target and an H&M.

It would cost an estimated $15.6 billion.

Officials are believed to favor the first two proposals, to the immediate south of Penn Station, over the Herald Square plan.

The project’s outside consultants and designers justify the station’s ballooning size with an extraordinary assumption: This modern multibillion-dollar facility will be less efficient than the current century-old Penn Station complex.

It assumes that trains will spend an average of 22 minutes at each platform, which is more than double the time currently needed by the LIRR or New Jersey Transit to board and disembark.

Increasing the amount of time a train spends at a platform increases the number of platforms a station needs to handle more trains to fit its schedule.

A schematic of a new Penn Station expansion plan includes a 12-track station at a whopping cost of $16.7 billion.





This second proposal for Penn Station’s expansion would have two levels as well, but not be stacked on top of each other, thus requiring more land.





The third proposal would build a 10-track station to the north and east of the current Penn Station between Sixth and Seventh avenues and 33rd and 34th streets. A portion of it would tuck in beneath the Herald Square Macy’s.






These renderings from the MTA show what the current Penn Station complex would look like after its current proposed $7 billion renovation of the facility. The plan, however, would not increase capacity through the current station complex.

[NYguy]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/n...son-river.html

New Phase of Gateway Tunnel Project in Hudson River to Begin
Work on the long-delayed rail tunnel is set to speed up this month, as Senator Chuck Schumer announces an additional $3.8 billion in federal funding.





By Patrick McGeehan
Nov. 3, 2023

Construction of the long-delayed rail tunnel under the Hudson River is about to speed up, as the project gets an additional $3.8 billion in federal funding.

Senator Chuck Schumer, Democrat of New York, announced the latest grant on Friday, just before he and Pete Buttigieg, the transportation secretary, proclaimed that work would start this month on the next phase of the $16.1 billion tunnel known as the Gateway project.

The new, early phase of the project involves building a concrete casing on Manhattan’s West Side for trains to pass through under Hudson Yards, between the river’s edge and Pennsylvania Station.

On the New Jersey side of the river, work is also scheduled to begin this month on the realignment of a highway so that the digging of the tunnel can start. Plans laid out by the project’s sponsor, the Gateway Development Commission, call for two giant boring machines to grind their way through the Palisades cliff, under the river and into the Manhattan bedrock.

Digging is expected to begin in 2025. The new tunnel is scheduled to open 10 years later.

On Friday, Mr. Buttigieg called the tunnel project “the largest and most significant infrastructure project” in the nation and likened it to “cathedrals of our infrastructure,” such as the Golden Gate Bridge and Hoover Dam.

The plan to build a tunnel between the station and New Jersey has been a political football for more than 15 years. But with the enthusiastic support of the Biden administration, Mr. Schumer, the Democratic majority leader, has lined up more than $10 billion in federal funds for the tunnel, which Mr. Buttigieg has called a national priority.

“With so much money already there, there’s virtually no chance it won’t be completed,” Mr. Schumer said on Thursday.

https://ny1.com/nyc/manhattan/news/2...in-new-funding

Gateway Tunnel project work begins as $3.8B in new funding is announced


By Erica Brosnan and Spectrum News Staff
Nov. 03, 2023

.....Schumer also announced Friday the allocation of an additional $3.8 billion in federal funding for the project, which is set to be the nation's largest public works project.

The announcement came on the heels of $6.88 billion Schumer unveiled in July, the largest such grant to a mass transit project in U.S. history.

Schumer said the newly secured $3.8 billion from the Federal Railroad Administration will be allocated toward critical elements such as track, signals and systems, while the July FTA funds will support the concrete core and shell of the Gateway Tunnel.

"This is huge for mass transit and transportation across New York," Schumer said at a news conference, calling the allocation a "major, major milestone" for the project. "With these new dollars, Gateway's future is assured. All systems go. There is no turning back."

The new rail tunnel under the river will serve Amtrak and New Jersey Transit. As part of the project, workers will also repair an existing tunnel damaged during Hurricane Sandy.

The existing tunnel is the only passenger rail tunnel between New Jersey and New York. More than 200,000 passenger trips are made on trains through it each weekday, according to the Biden administration.

Schumer said the project will also provide a large boost to the economy, predicting the creation of 72,000 jobs and $19 billion in economic activity.

The new tunnel will provide a vital artery in the northeast for rail traffic, where travel demand could rise as much as 32% more than pre-pandemic levels by the time the project is completed, according to estimates by the Regional Plan Association, a century-old nonprofit dedicated to the development of the New Jersey-New York-Connecticut region.

"For 30 years, Americans travelers, businesses, workers have been hoping for this day. But years of inaction, excuses, delays and the infighting are finally over," Gov. Kathy Hochul said at the news conference.

"We're now heralding in a new era of working not against each other, but working together to accomplish great things," she added.

https://www.audacy.com/1010wins/news...pleted-by-2026

[NYguy]

https://nypost.com/2023/11/08/metro/...aimed-records/

Penn Station revamp plan to cost $2B more than first claimed: records


By Nolan Hicks
Nov. 8, 2023

One of the two major renovation plans to revamp and operate Penn Station is likely to cost $2 billion more than its supporters initially claimed, The Post has learned.

Former MTA chairman Pat Foye and his new employer, Italian transportation conglomerate ASTM, have been claiming their bid to rebuild and privatize the station will cost no more than $6 billion – but records obtained by The Post show it will come in at more than $8 billion.

The newly surfaced estimates were included in a 200-plus page engineering analysis authored by the MTA and its consultants back in 2020 — when Foye was still helming the agency — as they examined a variety of plans for rebuilding the station.

The report was finalized a year before Foye departed the MTA and ended up on ASTM’s payroll as a top executive.

ASTM and the MTA are the only two parties now vying for the lucrative contract to overhaul the Midtown Manhattan transport hub.

Under the ASTM and MTA’s plans, both would spend $4.7 billion to tear apart the station’s warren of floors and narrow corridors and turn it into a new and easy-to-navigate structure that would consolidate all passenger-related functions on a single level.

ASTM’s pitch, however, would then build a grand new Eighth Avenue entrance by blowing out the west side of Penn Station and the Madison Square Garden’s Hulu Theater above it.

The MTA’s analysis considered a nearly identical proposal to ASTM’s plan, which found that it would cost another $1.2 billion to carry out that work, the records show.

And that’s before paying MSG’s controversial owner, James Dolan, for the land, which ASTM has publicly estimated would cost another $500 million.

The pandemic-era inflation bubble of 2020-2022 would push that $6.4 billion total up to $8.1 billion — assuming there’s not a drop of debt required to finance the proposal.

Foye and ASTM have gotten powerful Manhattan elected officials onboard with their pitch by claiming they could finance the overhaul, run the station and turn a profit by charging the MTA, Amtrak and New Jersey Transit a seemingly incidental annual fee of $250 million for 50 years.

However, the engineering docs and subsequent analysis by The Post show that would only generate $7.5 billion over three decades, meaning the operation would be deep in the red for years unless taxpayers and riders shell over larger payments.

“Press releases are not financial plans and are not comparable to a thorough analysis of cost completed by the MTA,” said Rachael Fauss, an MTA expert at watchdog group, Reinvent Albany. “Transit riders need more than a PowerPoint to explain how the costs are going to add up.”

“Trust us, ‘you’ll get a steal on the front end and you’ll just have to pay a bit over the years’ — it’s a gimmick,” she added. “We’re going to pay either way. What appears to be cheaper will likely cost more in the end. The amount of risk they’re asking taxpayers to take on is enormous.”

In comparison, the MTA’s plan swaps out the grand Eighth Avenue train hall proposal for a dramatic midblock entrance, which would replace the existing shuttered taxi way and require a complicated reworking of the skybridge that links MSG to a neighboring office tower.

The midblock proposal was estimated to cost approximately $750 million in 2020.

All in, the MTA’s proposal was estimated to cost $5.45 billion in 2020, a price tag that’s been pushed to $7.1 billion by inflation, the agency has said.

Dolan has fiercely opposed the MTA’s plan and claims it could interrupt operations at the MSG, potentially forcing the Knicks and Rangers to play elsewhere.

His company has provided engineering support and other assistance for ASTM’s proposal, which MTA insiders have viewed as a stalking horse to score a large property payout from demolishing the Hulu.

Government watchdog groups have flagged Foye’s involvement as a likely violation of state regulations that bar him from any interactions with his former agency for two years and impose a lifetime ban on matters he was personally involved with.

[Zapatan]

Yikes, that's some brutal inflation. Looks awesome though, hope they can still pull it off.

[NYguy]

Didn't realize until yesterday that Dolan had Knicks wearing the "Sphere" on their jerseys. If he's that in love with it (it is amazing), perhaps he should invest in building something similar on the MSG site. He could project whatever facade he wanted to on the downtimes.

[Charmy2]

Imagine the Las Vegas Sphere in the MIDDLE of Midtown Manhattan...that would be genuinely insane and something I would want to see. But it would SUCK for the residents in the area who have to look out their windows to blinding lights 24/7.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Charmy2

Imagine the Las Vegas Sphere in the MIDDLE of Midtown Manhattan...that would be genuinely insane and something I would want to see. But it would SUCK for the residents in the area who have to look out their windows to blinding lights 24/7.

The area is lit up now. People who move into the area know what they are getting. The downside to it is that it will be surrounded by new skyscrapers, being less visible than the sphere. The best space to view it would be from the Moynihan side, a building shich itself is lit at night.

But Dolan is very proud of it, and wants New Yorkers (and the rest of the world) become familiar enough with it. Imagine if it’s “the world’s most famous” arena.



https://apnews.com/article/sphere-ms...196aac84468f55

James Dolan’s sketch of the Sphere becomes reality as the venue opens with a U2 show in Las Vegas

It started as a crude sketch — a circle with a stick person inside. Seven years later, that drawing has been made real: A $2.3 billion massive spherical venue, standing 366 feet (111 meters) high and lighting up the Las Vegas skyline.

The drawing was initially made by James Dolan, the executive chair of Madison Square Garden and owner of the New York Knicks and Rangers. He and MSG Ventures CEO David Dibble were trying to create a plan to give the entertainment venue industry a facelift in Las Vegas.

Both experimented with different shapes for the structure — such as a muffin, a box and even a pyramid — until Dolan drew the circle and stick person on a notebook. At that moment, the Sphere was born.

I mean, the Knicks do play at the Garden…


https://twitter.com/krishabermehl/st...452015/photo/3

[NYguy]

Dolan should consider using some of that Sphere magic for the Garden.


https://youtu.be/_tsO-9Ec6-w?si=qA7Bfhs81MnV5gs-








Meanwhile, a look at sites 2....







And 6...

[NYguy]

Obviously the CB is still against it, but a few had reasonable takes on expected development...


https://www.amny.com/news/manhattan-...station-plans/


By Max Parrott
January 12, 2024

The board’s second resolution topic, the land use proposal that the state has designed for Penn Station, would override New York City zoning rules to redevelop nine blocks around the train hall. The plan would involve 10 new buildings on eight development sites, creating around 18 million square feet of office, retail and hotel space.

What the community board argued in its resolution was that the change in zoning would actually preclude the development of residential units on four of the 10 sites.

“Under city rule residential use is permitted. Under the [state’s general project plan] it is not. Given the housing shortage that the city is undergoing and especially acutely in CD5, we feel there is yet another reason to actually ask for the retiring of this proposal,” Law-Gisiko said.

The three community members who ultimately voted against the resolution agreed with Law-Gisiko’s premise that developing new housing stock should be a priority for the community board, but didn’t side with her conclusion about the Penn Station plan.

Board member Samir Lavingia argued that because of the height limits of the floor-area-ratio (FAR) in the current zoning, it wouldn’t be realistic to expect any developer to buy one of the sites and build affordable housing. If any parcels in the plan became residential housing, he argued, it would most likely be luxury housing because the land values in that area of the city are some of the highest in the country.

“We are not going to see any residential housing and zero units of affordable housing. Again, even if we build housing on these sites, zero them to be affordable,” Lavingia said.

Law-Gisiko responded that she thought a combination of real estate lending practices and tax exemptions could make residential development in the surrounding area appealing for developers.

“By saying we don’t like the [general project plan] we consistently hope not to be at war with anyone,” Law-Gisiko said. “But to tell them sometimes forcefully, please go back to the drawing board.”

[chris08876]

I wonder if the recent outlook on future office space demand will essentially transform this into a heavier residential component. When they say creating around 18 million square feet of office, retail and hotel space... if that instead will be geared more towards residential.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by chris08876

I wonder if the recent outlook on future office space demand will essentially transform this into a heavier residential component. When they say creating around 18 million square feet of office, retail and hotel space... if that instead will be geared more towards residential.

It was already transitioned to allow 4 of the towers to be residential. In fact, Vornado has stated that it's first tower would be a residential tower on site 4, where the closed Duane Reade is. The problem with housing is that it's limited in New York state to a FAR of 12. That's less than half of what office could get, and then you factor in for affordable housing. Governor Hochul has been and still is trying to get the legislature to change it, at least for New York City.

[NYguy]

https://nypost.com/2024/01/15/busine...ere-in-london/

James Dolan yanks plug on Vegas-style Sphere in London after mayor’s veto


By Steve Cuozzo
Jan. 15, 2024

Madison Square Garden Entertainment Corp. CEO James Dolan dramatically pulled out of a plan to build a Sphere in East London similar to the game-changing Las Vegas performance venue after the mayor of London blew a last-minute whistle on it.

“It’s a political football,” Dolan told us. “It looked to me like it was going to be a never-ending fight that could go on for years. We’ve been in a never-ending fight in New York [over Madison Square Garden]. We live in New York but we’re not stuck in London.”

“I’m going to be happy when it’s behind us,” he said of the London situation.

Dolan said MSGE would sell the five-acre parcel of land near the Olympic Park in Stratford, about six miles from central London, for which it paid $79 million in 2017, according to an SEC filing.

.....Dolan acknowledged that there were “definitely a couple of hundred residents” near the Sphere who might have objected to its lighting effects, “but every public project has some detractors, and they must be seen in the context of the economic benefits it would bring to the area.”

Publicly traded MSGE, with $851 million in revenue in 2023, owns the Garden, Radio City Music Hall among other premier venues as well as the NBA Knicks, the NHL Rangers and MSG network. The company hopes to replicate the Sphere in other cities. A possible site in South Korea has been rumored but “it’s still in negotiations,” Dolan cautioned.

What about in New York City?

Dolan chuckled, “I think New York City is not ready for a Sphere. It would be too difficult to get through the processes.

“I wanted to build a Sphere on Pier 76 on the Hudson, next to the Javits Center. It isn’t being used much. But when I looked at what it would take . . . just keeping Madison Square Garden in place and operating has been 20 years of struggle.”

Well Mr. Dolan, you can now focus on upgrading MSG and cooperating with the rebuilding of Penn Station.

[Sky88]

So why not build the Sphere in Chicago. The Sphere overlooking Lake Michigan would be beautiful.

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by Sky88

So why not build the Sphere in Chicago. The Sphere overlooking Lake Michigan would be beautiful.

I’m sure many people would hate living next to a bright ball of light and advertisements. Are there any apartments directly facing Times Square billboards?

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by UrbanImpact

I’m sure many people would hate living next to a bright ball of light and advertisements. Are there any apartments directly facing Times Square billboards?

There are apartments with views of Times Square, but even down here by Penn, the apartments overlook a bright 7th and 6th Avenues, and even MSG.

Dolan doesn't want to go through a whole approvals process for anything fancy, but if he would just cooperate with what they are doing now, he could get a lot more through than he would otherwise.

At the same time, it would be largely blocked by surrounding buildings, unlike the Sphere which is pretty much open.




ogmueller

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by Sky88

So why not build the Sphere in Chicago. The Sphere overlooking Lake Michigan would be beautiful.

I think these types of things belong in novelty glitzy cities like Vegas or Dubai, Chicago is too natural looking and normal of a city and it would probably be an annoyance to many people.

Although I don't know, many Chinese cities are comparable as some of their skyscrapers have light-shows covering the entire building which is pretty cool.

It would suck to be seizure-prone and live somewhere like that though lol.

[UrbanImpact]

MSG’s James Dolan and Harvey Weinstein accused of sexual assault in newly filed lawsuit
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/16/us/ja...uit/index.html

Perhaps these allegations will have some sort of positive affect on the future of MSG (i.e. selling of property to cover costs).

[Sky88]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

I think these types of things belong in novelty glitzy cities like Vegas or Dubai, Chicago is too natural looking and normal of a city and it would probably be an annoyance to many people.

Although I don't know, many Chinese cities are comparable as some of their skyscrapers have light-shows covering the entire building which is pretty cool.

It would suck to be seizure-prone and live somewhere like that though lol.

I agree with Nyguy, I don't think brightness is a real problem, you just need to know where the sphere could be built.

I believe Chicago can offer new possibilities for builders. Just look at the new casino you want to build. It was unthinkable just a few years ago. One possibility could be to build the Sphere above the Waldron Deck car park.

Possible Chicago Sphere

[NYguy]

^ We were discussing a possible "Sphere"-like development at MSG because of Dolan. Doesn't have anything to do with Chicago.

Originally Posted by UrbanImpact

MSG’s James Dolan and Harvey Weinstein accused of sexual assault in newly filed lawsuit
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/16/us/ja...uit/index.html

Perhaps these allegations will have some sort of positive affect on the future of MSG (i.e. selling of property to cover costs).

Doubtful. For one thing, we're talking allegations. But even proven, they can't take anything from the Dolans, meaning their rights to the site. He himself could be removed, but the family would still control it.