Public Realm in Canadian Cities - Developments

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is Dundas West Station being renamed too? (I've always found it odd that Toronto had several distinct subway stations with the same core name but with East or West added on.)

Apparently they will but I don't think there have been any names proposed as of yet. Also the Jane/Dundas library which seems like a good call to me for the reasons mentioned above.

[kool maudit]

I like Sankofa. It has a ring to it.

You can do a lot worse with things like this.

[Acajack]

There is nothing wrong with the name Sankofa per se. But it is completely meaningless in the context of Toronto, Ontario and Canada.

It's as if NYC renamed Times Square "Chasse-Galerie Square" or "Jantelagen Square".

[Acajack]

The more I think about it, the more this decision for the biggest square in the biggest city in the country, is an absolutely perfect metaphor for today's Canada.

[someone123]

You can go shop at H&M there, get a burger at a chain store, and then not think about the foreign abstract concept behind the name of the place you're in and how it ties in with a cultural moment from another country that some people there really really want to be a part of.

[niwell]

It's definitely not the worst choice from a pronounceability / recognition perspective. Regardless of people knowing what it means aside. I could see teens referring to the area as Sankofa in 5 years with no issue.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

It's definitely not the worst choice from a pronounceability / recognition perspective. Regardless of people knowing what it means aside. I could see teens referring to the area as Sankofa in 5 years with no issue.

Oh I most definitely think they will. People always say that the old names will stick around forever (or at least for a long time) but that's not generally the case. Eventually the new names always impose themselves.

I still say SkyDome but I betcha the vast majority of younger people in the GTA say Rogers Centre, even as counter-intuitive a name as it is.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

You can go shop at H&M there, get a burger at a chain store, and then not think about the foreign abstract concept behind the name of the place you're in and how it ties in with a cultural moment from another country that some people there really really want to be a part of.

Oh you've definitely hit the nail on the head with how we are increasingly citizens of Zara, citizens of Starbucks and citizens of Taylor Swift as opposed to citizens of countries, much less bona fide cultural nations.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh you've definitely hit the nail on the head with how we are increasingly citizens of Zara, citizens of Starbucks and citizens of Taylor Swift as opposed to citizens of countries, much less bona fide cultural nations.

Aren't we all, though? And to be somewhat fair to Canada, "our" pavilion at the World's Fair that is the 21st century high street in a global city is Lululemon.

If downtown Toronto didn't have an area like Dundas square, something would be a little off.

I sometimes wonder if people overseas think of shopping at a multinational retail chain as an "American" thing, since, ironically, the only downtowns of big cities that don't have chain shopping are in the US.

[GeneralLeeTPHLS]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is nothing wrong with the name Sankofa per se. But it is completely meaningless in the context of Toronto, Ontario and Canada.

It's as if NYC renamed Times Square "Chasse-Galerie Square" or "Jantelagen Square".

While I want to say I understand where the city council was coming from in this name change, I just don't, and I'm lying to myself to sound agreeable.
I'm still struggling to see the reasoning in renaming Dundas at all, because it feels like an elaboration of a rushed decision made after the George Floyd "reckoning" three years ago.

A new name for the square is a good idea, even if it just makes sense to call it as its known now. While the proposed name sounds fairly smooth off the tongue and all, its lack of local, provincial, or federal relevance makes it feel detached from the physical environment, even if may seem fitting with the times socially in a sense.
I'm really hoping we don't see a TMU (Ryerson is what I'm still calling it out of habit, I doubt I'll ever fully start calling it the current name) subway station in the place of Dundas...but that would be very fitting with this city and reminiscent of the corporate naming legislation for GO stations announced by the province a number of months ago.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Aren't we all, though? And to be somewhat fair to Canada, "our" pavilion at the World's Fair that is the 21st century high street in a global city is Lululemon.

If downtown Toronto didn't have an area like Dundas square, something would be a little off.

I sometimes wonder if people overseas think of shopping at a multinational retail chain as an "American" thing, since, paradoxically, the only downtowns of big cities that don't have chain shopping are in the US.

Of course, it's far from being just a Canadian phenomenon.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is nothing wrong with the name Sankofa per se. But it is completely meaningless in the context of Toronto, Ontario and Canada.

All I am saying is that given the trends afoot in places like Toronto, a euphonic word connoting a vague sense of well-meaning foreign 'vibrancy' is an OK outcome.

These are situations where you can pretty easily end up with grotesque idols, unpronounceable phonics, illegible alphabets, abject apologies, or just total abdications of creativity like "People with AIDS Place".

So it's "Sankofa". It's from Ghana, like from this specific tribe there. Maybe you imagine some sort of scene where women are dancing in colorful fabrics in a marketplace for a second before wondering if it's OK to picture that. They could come here and do this!

It's not so bad.








Weirdly, according to a Google result from Berea College at least, "Sankofa is an African word from the Akan tribe in Ghana. The literal translation of the word and the symbol is “it is not taboo to fetch what is at risk of being left behind.” The word is derived from the words: SAN (return) KO (go)"


Which is pretty close to an argument against the renaming.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GeneralLeeTPHLS

I'm really hoping we don't see a TMU (Ryerson is what I'm still calling it out of habit, I doubt I'll ever fully start calling it the current name) subway station in the place of Dundas...but that would be very fitting with this city and reminiscent of the corporate naming legislation for GO stations announced by the province a number of months ago.

TMU or "Toronto Metropolitan University" Station as the new name for Dundas Station is already confirmed as happening, is it not?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

All I am saying is that given the trends afoot in places like Toronto, a euphonic word connoting a vague sense of well-meaning foreign 'vibrancy' is an OK outcome.

These are situations where you can pretty easily end up with grotesque idols, unpronounceable phonics, illegible alphabets, abject apologies, or just total abdications of creativity like "People with AIDS Place".

So it's "Sankofa". It's from Ghana, like from this specific tribe there. Maybe you imagine some sort of scene where women are dancing in colorful fabrics in a marketplace for a second before wondering if it's OK to picture that. They could come here and do this!

It's not so bad.








Weirdly, according to a Google result from Berea College at least, "Sankofa is an African word from the Akan tribe in Ghana. The literal translation of the word and the symbol is “it is not taboo to fetch what is at risk of being left behind.” The word is derived from the words: SAN (return) KO (go)"


Which is pretty close to an argument against the renaming.

I suppose that given that it's Toronto and Canada we should be thankful that it won't be Rogers Square, Canadian Tire Square or TD Square!

[GeneralLeeTPHLS]

Originally Posted by Acajack

TMU or "Toronto Metropolitan University" Station as the new name for Dundas Station is already confirmed as happening, is it not?

From what I heard in the UrbanToronto article, they're still discussing it. But, I imagine that's the leading contender, and mostly likely new name for that subway stop.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GeneralLeeTPHLS

While I want to say I understand where the city council was coming from in this name change, I just don't, and I'm lying to myself to sound agreeable.
I'm still struggling to see the reasoning in renaming Dundas at all, because it feels like an elaboration of a rushed decision made after the George Floyd "reckoning" three years ago.
.

I've read that the decision is at least partly born out of a desire to make a strong statement against slavery.

Now, no one is going to argue against motherhood and apple pie, and so standing against slavery is always going to be a good thing.

But is it worthy of being the main driver for the renaming of the busiest square in the middle of the biggest city of a country that only had an extremely peripheral relationship to the slave trade?

In most places in the world, important central squares in the capital or biggest city are named for national heroes like Place Charles-de-Gaulle (yeah, I know we're not doing that anymore) or other stuff significant to the country and its history (Place de l'Indépendence, Piazza della Repubblicca, Plaza de la Constitucion, Place des Martyrs, Pioneers Square, etc.).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

If downtown Toronto didn't have an area like Dundas square, something would be a little off.

I sometimes wonder if people overseas think of shopping at a multinational retail chain as an "American" thing, since, ironically, the only downtowns of big cities that don't have chain shopping are in the US.

Toronto is large enough to have specialized pedestrian storefront shopping districts and if you don't like the mall-like chains then this isn't the area for you. By and large I find malls just have nothing for me.

In Halifax the size of the city and economy were such that independent mom and pop stores could pay rent anywhere and some prominent storefronts were vacant in the 90's and 2000's. More recently some parts of downtown have now solidly developed this outdoor chain mall feel as rents have gone way up and there are more people doing higher-end shopping downtown. I notice that some locals bemoan this and some visitors, especially from smaller towns around the region, complain that downtown is generic (if you walk 5 minutes around uptown SJ you still see the mom and pops and quaint Victorian houses occupied by families and not Lululemon). But really what has happened is the independent stores were mostly pushed outward, in some cases to quiet or even bombed-out looking areas that previously had almost nothing interesting to offer. Overall I think the new situation is better and I'd be surprised if the 90's had more independent shopping options.

You can plot this trajectory just by looking at where certain businesses were. In the 90's, the local alternative weekly paper occupied a grand bank building downtown. Then they moved to a nice brick rowhouse in an adjacent neighbourhood and now they're probably in a more modest building somewhere. There used to be a record shop just a block or two from the bank towers, but it's now along a shopping street in the North End that used to be mostly vacant. There were a bunch of bars and clubs in landmark heritage buildings and that was fun but wasn't necessarily a sign the city was all that healthy.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But is it worthy of being the main driver for the renaming of the busiest square in the middle of the biggest city of a country that only had an extremely peripheral relationship to the slave trade?

Again, an incongruous nod to Richard Preston or Sophia Pooley would be a relief. High Anglo Decency in its current mode has a very demotic, literal streak. You don't want to exclude those who might not have had the privilege of learning who these figures were.

We could easily wind up with "Slavery Is Bad Square".

(...and the bus driver has to say it, and you end up needing to give directions to it, and obviously it's not as though slavery is good but still there is this little part of you know that knows that something stupid is going on, but why would you say it, why would you make that your thing etc.....)

It's late.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Again, an incongruous nod to Richard Preston or Sophia Pooley would be a relief. High Anglo Decency in its current mode has a very demotic, literal streak. You don't want to exclude those who might not have had the privilege of learning who these figures were.

We could easily wind up with "Slavery Is Bad Square".

(...and the bus driver has to say it, and you end up needing to give directions to it, and obviously it's not as though slavery is good but still there is this little part of you know that knows that something stupid is going on, but why would you say it, why would you make that your thing etc.....)

It's late.

The other "based" approach of course is they name stuff for the people they want and then subtly or not-so-subtly make you feel guilty or stupid for not knowing who it is.

Quebec is still kinda like that I find.

This train is named for Pau Casals... whaddaya mean you don't know who Pau Casals was?!?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

(...and the bus driver has to say it, and you end up needing to give directions to it, and obviously it's not as though slavery is good but still there is this little part of you know that knows that something stupid is going on, but why would you say it, why would you make that your thing etc.....)

I'm pretty sure the Dundas Street guy was actually an abolitionist and the complaint is that he wanted to amend the 1700's legislation to be more gradual. At the time he would have been a Scottish Enlightenment figure who would have registered as ultra progressive everywhere in the contemporary world. I'd make some modern analogy but I don't want to insult the Scottish Enlightenment. After George Floyd, some people in Toronto wanted to find somebody to cancel and the magnitude of his transgressions by themselves speak volumes. Canada's history of slavery is quite underwhelming and it never had much legal standing here. Uniacke was leading votes against recognizing it in the 1780's.