When did it become apparent that Toronto would surpass Montreal...

[kool maudit]

Longtime forumers will know that I am someone who is pretty sensitive to the many ways in which Montreal offered a more promising basis for metropolitan splendor than Toronto, but we can't understand Montreal without being realistic about what happened to its relative economic position within Canada and North America. The blows it absorbed from 1920-1995 were devastating, and the circumstance that gave it the prewar built environment we all love was eviscerated.

[acottawa]

What large company was based in Toronto before the 1970?

CN, CP, Air Canada, BMO, Royal Bank, Seagrams, were all based in Montreal. If you travelled to Canada in either the steamship era or the early jet era you were almost certainly arriving in Montreal. When Canada hosted a centennial world’s fair it was in Montreal. When Canada hosted its first Olympics it was in Montreal. When Canada got its first baseball team it was in Montreal.

Toronto was a Milwaukee.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by acottawa

What large company was based in Toronto before the 1970?

TD, CIBC, Bank of Nova Scotia, Manulife, Barrick Resources, George Weston, Dominion, Multimatic International (Magna), Hudson's Bay Company, Canadian Tire, Carling O'Keefe, Eaton's, General Motors Canada, Avro Canada, Sam The Record Man, Zeller's...

There were a lot of major companies based in Toronto before 1970. It was also the home of essentially all US branch facilities, which was a major factor in vaulting Toronto past Montreal.

Toronto 1930-70 was more like a Chicago than a Milwaukee.

[kool maudit]

Montreal's present zeitgeist of focusing on design, infrastructure and general urban maintenance is the city's best option for the moment, and it is good at it. It can put together a square, a street or even a transit system better than anywhere else in Canada by some margin. It has a talent for infrastructure and self-optimization. But I wonder whether the question of its destiny will at some point come back. It's great to be a North American Copenhagen, but there is a point at which it matters that Copenhagen is the capital of Denmark, and that Denmark has a per capita GDP of USD 68,000 (vs. about 38,000 for Quebec).

Jane Jacobs thought that independence would ultimately be good for Montreal.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Montreal's present zeitgeist of focusing on design, infrastructure and general urban maintenance is the city's best option for the moment, and it is good at it. It can put together a square, a street or even a transit system better than anywhere else in Canada by some margin. It has a talent for infrastructure and self-optimization. But I wonder whether the question of its destiny will at some point come back. It's great to be a North American Copenhagen, but there is a point at which it matters that Copenhagen is the capital of Denmark, and that Denmark has a per capita GDP of USD 68,000 (vs. about 38,000 for Quebec).

Very much so. Just got back from a weekend in Montreal for the first time since 2017 and there's a surprising amount of change. It really excels at the small things that Toronto (and every other city in Canada really) can struggle with.

Interesting question about the future though. Especially since one of my takeaways wasn't so much that "Montreal is just better at this" rather than "damn, it wouldn't really be *that* hard for us to catch up if people put their mind to it".

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by niwell

Very much so. Just got back from a weekend in Montreal for the first time since 2017 and there's a surprising amount of change. It really excels at the small things that Toronto (and every other city in Canada really) can struggle with.

Interesting question about the future though. Especially since one of my takeaways wasn't so much that "Montreal is just better at this" rather than "damn, it wouldn't really be *that* hard for us to catch up if people put their mind to it".

What's surprising is how Toronto keeps squandering its lead, especially given how Montreal was slightly run-down in the 80-90s. Despite being Canada's wealthiest city, everything in the central city feels uncared for, broken or torn up. Water features in the parks are almost never turned on, with garbage littered everywhere. There's now potholes on my work commute that's worst than anything I've seen on Montreal island, and Montreal's infamous for their giant potholes. Luckily the highways in Toronto are still pristine (the only infrastructure that's decently maintained).

The city is as ugly as ever (but now they're increasing the ugly vertically with atrocious spandrel), and there doesn't seem to be anyone in power who cares. Riding the TTC feels more precarious and dangerous than the STM these days. The constantly rising COL just amplifies these drawbacks.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

What's surprising is how Toronto keeps squandering its lead, especially given how Montreal was slightly run-down in the 80-90s. Despite being Canada's wealthiest city, everything in the central city feels uncared for, broken or torn up. Water features in the parks are almost never turned on, with garbage littered everywhere. There's now potholes on my work commute that's worst than anything I've seen on Montreal island, and Montreal's infamous for their giant potholes. Luckily the highways in Toronto are still pristine (the only infrastructure that's decently maintained).

The city is as ugly as ever (but now they're increasing the ugly vertically with atrocious spandrel), and there doesn't seem to be anyone in power who cares. Riding the TTC feels more precarious and dangerous than the STM these days. The constantly rising COL just amplifies these drawbacks.

Toronto has its share of challenges, but I think that every city in the Western world is worse off than it was in 2019, Montreal included.

Toronto has always been unkempt and somewhat dysfunctional. The TTC aside, all the other things you're mentioning haven't gotten noticeably worse.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Toronto has its share of challenges, but I think that every city in the Western world is worse off than it was in 2019, Montreal included.

Toronto has always been unkempt and somewhat dysfunctional. The TTC aside, all the other things you're mentioning haven't gotten noticeably worse.

When I was young, Toronto definitely didn't feel like that to me, compared to Montreal. But maybe it's just because I was a kid.

Today they feel a lot more similar when it comes to general "messiness".

But back then Toronto was more prim and proper, and newer. Even "shinier" though people have shown grimy photos from the 1980s but I think everywhere was like that due to air pollution levels.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Toronto has its share of challenges, but I think that every city in the Western world is worse off than it was in 2019, Montreal included.

Toronto has always been unkempt and somewhat dysfunctional. The TTC aside, all the other things you're mentioning haven't gotten noticeably worse.

Growing up in Toronto, I did not recall Toronto being so dirty and poorly maintained, with somewhat of a shiny factor to it that Montreal didn't have. It wasn't pretty but at least it was cared for.

The potholes especially, I used to brag to my relatives in Montreal how much better our roads here were. Never would have I pictured myself driving a pothole obstacle course just to get on the Gardiner. But that's the reality today.

Though I would say the city still showers a lot of money in the older suburbs, at the detriment of the central city (because megacity politics). My old neighbourhood in North York is still relatively pristine and well maintained. Now thinking about it more, perhaps what we're seeing is a full manifestation of the Megacity nightmare foisted by Mike Harris on Toronto.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Luckily the highways in Toronto are still pristine (the only infrastructure that's decently maintained).

This is because the Ontario transportation ministry is very good at maintaining and updating its assets. Its very notable in Ottawa just how much better the provincially-owned 417 highway is than the municipally-owned 174 highway.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Montreal's present zeitgeist of focusing on design, infrastructure and general urban maintenance is the city's best option for the moment, and it is good at it. It can put together a square, a street or even a transit system better than anywhere else in Canada by some margin. It has a talent for infrastructure and self-optimization. But I wonder whether the question of its destiny will at some point come back. It's great to be a North American Copenhagen, but there is a point at which it matters that Copenhagen is the capital of Denmark, and that Denmark has a per capita GDP of USD 68,000 (vs. about 38,000 for Quebec).

Jane Jacobs thought that independence would ultimately be good for Montreal.

That book by Jane Jacobs (not that easy to find but my university library had it) was almost a seminal work for me when I first read it because I had always assumed that Quebec independence, if it ever happened, would come at the sacrifice of Montreal's prosperity. The convincing evidence being its decline from the late 70s up until the start of the 2000s. Plus this was written by a respected anglophone urbanist who lived in Toronto. (Though she was American by birth, so maybe this allowed her to see things in a more detached way.) But anyway it wasn't written by some wide-eyed Québécois separatist dreamer.

Later on in life I thought about Jacobs' book when I visited the very dynamic metropolises (often also the capital but not always) of smaller countries or newly independent countries, and saw what kind of oomph they got from that status.

That being said, "Montrealism" these days isn't really even conscious of the possibilities (whether realistic or not) evoked by Jacobs, and even the people in the city who are for independence don't really see it or portray it as a potential huge plus for Montreal. It's never couched in those terms, and if anything it's about Quebec needing to become independent so that Montreal doesn't become another Toronto (or a big Ottawa or even Un Gros Sudbury!), as opposed to it becoming an equivalent to Toronto... but for Quebec.

Quebec independence is still a very defensive reflex. I mean, I fully understand why that is, but that's not a very compelling dream to pursue.

"Survivre" nest pas un objectif - René-Daniel Dubois

[samne]

I think it had a lot to do with de-industrialization in North America in general that was happening from the 70-90s. Montreal was more of a manufacturing centre while Toronto was more service based. Bill 101 has less effect in a manufacturing based economy, but doesn’t help service based. So making the transition wasnt straightforward. Unlike many of its counterparts parts in NA, Montreal has made the transition and now thriving.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by samne

I think it had a lot to do with de-industrialization in North America in general that was happening from the 70-90s. Montreal was more of a manufacturing centre while Toronto was more service based. Bill 101 has less effect in a manufacturing based economy, but doesn’t help service based. So making the transition wasnt straightforward. Unlike many of its counterparts parts in NA, Montreal has made the transition and now thriving.

This is a very interesting point that is almost never mentioned.

Montreal has bounced back in large part because it's in Quebec, and not in spite of it.

It's the be-all-end-all metropolis for Quebec and even for French-speaking Canada.

In that sense it has a largish, captive hinterland that doesn't have anywhere else to go in terms of a metropolis.

Guy Laliberté, not a Montrealer, even if he is a citizen of a country whose largest city is Toronto, would never have put the Cirque du Soleil HQ in Toronto.

I can't think of any Quebec-based or controlled corporations that have their HQ in Toronto.

Québécois and francophones who create companies don't do so in Toronto, and don't move the HQ to Toronto either when they become larger. (Though they may open a branch in Toronto.)

[Rico Rommheim]

I've got a request for the mods: Please rename this thread "The Great Canadian Bi-monthly thread of When did it become apparent that Toronto would surpass Montreal... Feat. the same old arguments made by the same old forumers"

-Rico

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

I've got a request for the mods: Please rename this thread "The Great Canadian Bi-monthly thread of When did it become apparent that Toronto would surpass Montreal... Feat. the same old arguments made by the same old forumers"

-Rico

And there’s always the inevitable “joke thread” that will follow up. It’s so overdone it’s not funny at this point. It was just done 500 times before.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by le calmar

And there’s always the inevitable “joke thread” that will follow up. It’s so overdone it’s not funny at this point. It was just done 500 times before.

as for the inevitable joke thread, let me jump the gun to state that Toronto had the population sweepstakes wrapped up once Montreal became landlocked in the late 1960s and 1970s

[MolsonExport]

When did it become apparent that Dallas would surpass New York City...

all jokes aside, Montreal is finally ascendant after years of relatively slow growth. Woot Woot times have returned.

[kool maudit]

It's just something that's going to come up periodically. It's an aspect of Canada's urban history. I don't see why it's so exasperating.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

It's just something that's going to come up periodically. It's an aspect of Canada's urban history. I don't see why it's so exasperating.

Every thread on here is easily avoided if one is not interested.

[Denscity]

Wait the Cirque HQ is in Toronto??
Even here in zero French BC I think that's totally wrong!