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  #701  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2011, 5:47 AM
djlx2 djlx2 is offline
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Originally Posted by JDRCRASH View Post
You know what? Let's just skip standard HSR and think ahead to evacuated Maglev technology everywhere in the US. It's quite apparent the Republicans don't have brains and are PURPOSELY trying to stall the HSR movement..... and, thanks to Obama's failure to tout it's advantages..... they've succeeded.

Might as well think WAY ahead, instead of investing in something only to have it viewed as outdated by the time it's completed. TGV steel wheel on rail technology likely isn't gonna get much faster than that French test in 2007. Maglev's potential FAAARR exceeds TGV.
The reasons on this one are confusing, because outside Maglev technology's advantages in terms of speed, it also needs to constantly be monitored for collision and has unstable nature, is this just politics or is this setting back the argument on either side?
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  #702  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2011, 9:20 AM
XtremeDave XtremeDave is offline
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I'm surprised the USA isn't more urbanized leading to more city/suburb votes. Really, how can it be that the rural vote can always be the deciding factor. Are we not seeing more urbanization in this country?
The US has a 77% urbanization rate, however the Constitution intended the Senate to be biased towards rural states, by granting 2 Senators to every state, regardless of population. New Jersey has the same representation as Alaska.

Besides, most suburbs and lean Republican anyways, and a lot of HSR opposition comes from these suburbs.
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  #703  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2011, 9:34 AM
djlx2 djlx2 is offline
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The US has a 77% urbanization rate, however the Constitution intended the Senate to be biased towards rural states, by granting 2 Senators to every state, regardless of population. New Jersey has the same representation as Alaska.

Besides, most suburbs and lean Republican anyways, and a lot of HSR opposition comes from these suburbs.
People are usually only really into one of their senators anyways even urban-based states, if something's off in terms of how representation is affecting getting HSR transit through, if we appeal to our one senator, can we get HSR through?
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  #704  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2011, 12:15 PM
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People are usually only really into one of their senators anyways even urban-based states, if something's off in terms of how representation is affecting getting HSR transit through, if we appeal to our one senator, can we get HSR through?
Huh? I studied political science in college and grad school and this is a new notion to me. People might be opposed to one or both of their senators for partisan reasons and one senator might be more effective than the other, but I am pretty certain residents of a state enjoy the representation of both their state's two senators. In CA, both Sen. Boxer and Feinstein have been effective advocates for transit, the 30/10 Plan, and high speed rail. Similarly, I think NY residents enjoy the representation provided by both Sen. Schumer and Gillibrand.

The problem, however, isn't the Senate even though you need sixty senators to get anything done in that chamber. There are 53 Dems and Sen. Kirk (R-IL) and the Maine twins could likely be counted on to support investment in high speed rail. Perhaps the Senate wouldn't pass Obama's $53B proposal for high speed rail over five years at this point but there are enough votes for $2B - $4B per year for high speed rail. The problem is the House of Representatives, with its large number of Ayn Rand-disciples. It is the House of Representatives where high speed rail funding got whacked in the Continuing Resolution budget compromise this past week.
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  #705  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2011, 2:43 PM
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Gov. Scott's attorney admits giving inaccurate figures arguing against HSR

To paraphrase the Honorable Sen. Jon Kyl (RepuB(P)lican-AZ), it seems like nothing the GO(B)P says is meant to be factual. I suppose when hundreds of millions of dollars in bribes (i.e. campaign contributions) from the Chamber of Commerce, Exxon-Mobile, Koch Industries, isn't enough to help you get your way, you can just blatantly make things up.

Gov. Scott's attorney admits giving inaccurate figures arguing against high speed rail money


Charles Trippe says he gave wrong figures on money spent on high-speed-rail project, says it was miscommunication with FDOT

Orlando Sentinel
4/15/2011

"TALLAHASSEE, Florida — Gov. Rick Scott's attorney has told the Florida Supreme Court that he was wrong about the money already spent on the state's high-speed rail project while defending the governor's right to kill it.

Scott's general counsel, Charles Trippe, sent Chief Justice Charles Canady, a letter Thursday. He acknowledged that he gave inaccurate figures during oral arguments last month supporting the governor's rejection of $2.4 billion in federal funds for the project linking Tampa with Orlando.

Trippe attributed the inaccurate information to a miscommunication with the Florida Department of Transportation...."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,1772945.story

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  #706  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2011, 10:18 PM
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is offline
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Originally Posted by djlx2 View Post
The reasons on this one are confusing, because outside Maglev technology's advantages in terms of speed, it also needs to constantly be monitored for collision and has unstable nature, is this just politics or is this setting back the argument on either side?
In all honesty, that's just Maglev critics. In NO way is Maglev any less safe than conventional HSR technology. If anything, the opposite might be true the higher speeds go.

Keep in mind that it is conventional HSR that was used in the 1998 Germany disaster, the worst in the history of HSR. I know technology has improved since then, but still.
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  #707  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2011, 3:07 PM
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Former Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt calls the rail plan — target of a coordinated attack by the Right — “a complete catastrophe,” and tells where the nation should focus.


April 21st, 2011

By Philip Langdon

Read More: http://newurbannetwork.com/article/h...E2%80%99-14561

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The time has come to candidly examine why President Obama’s high-speed rail proposal is in such terrible shape — and to figure out how passenger rail service could be expanded despite the serious recent setbacks. One leader well worth listening to is Bruce Babbitt — a thoughtful politician who was President Clinton’s Interior Secretary and, before that, governor of Arizona for nine years. Babbitt let loose his frustrations last week, identifying himself as “an advocate of high-speed rail” who views what’s happened over the past year as “a complete catastrophe.”

- With segments of the rail plan now cancelled in Florida, Ohio, and Wisconsin, and with some federal funding revoked by Congressional Republicans this month, Babbitt thinks we must approach rail planning much more strategically than the Obama administration did. Of the president’s stated aim — provision of high-speed rail service to 80 percent of the American population in 25 years — Babbitt declared, “It’s fantasy.”

In his view, the Obama plan suffers from these critical flaws:

• Routes were poorly chosen. The Orlando-to-Tampa line — 84 miles mostly in an Interstate highway corridor — would have run from one city that’s “not a model of transit” to another city with the same transit deficiency. Said Babbitt: “Frankly, it’s not surprising that the governor of Florida [when offered 90 percent of the funds to construct the line] turned it down.”

• Goals were defined vaguely. They were not hammered out through extensive discussion and political brokering — activities essential, in Babbitt’s judgment, to the program’s success.

• “The president didn’t help his visionary statement by holding up the transcontinental railroad as a model.” One-hundred-forty million acres were distributed to railroads through that post-Civil War enterprise, which led to the Crédit Mobilier scandal — “one of the largest government-sponsored fraudulent ventures of all time.”

---------------------------------------

- Rail proponents should emulate not the transcontinental railroad but rather the Interstate Highway Act of 1956, Babbitt believes. Like today’s high-speed rail initiative, the interstate highway proposal initially received a hostile reception in influential quarters. “The governors were largely opposed,” Babbitt said. Most came out against a raise in the gasoline tax or in excise taxes. Ultimately, the highway act owed its passage to “a lot of discussion, brokering, setting goals,” according to Babbitt. Negotiation over where the highways would be built “took place ahead of the act.” The same should hold true for any far-reaching rail program, he thinks.

- “Let’s start with something realistic, where the payoffs will be most real,” Babbitt urged. The nation’s biggest megaregion, the dense corridor from Boston to Washington, already “carries one-third of Amtrak’s traffic,” making it, in his view, a logical place to demonstrate that high-speed rail can work. The biggest difficulty, he indicated, is that high-speed rail requires a dedicated form of financing. Would the country as a whole be willing to pay for a system serving seven or so states? That’s highly unlikely, said Babbitt. “There are 43 states that will say no to an earmarked tax.” The way to overcome that obstacle is by establishing a gasoline tax that would be paid by residents of the Northeast corridor states, he argued. “That’s the lesson of the Interstate Highway Act. We need to get back to dedicated user fees. It should be focused on regional users.”

- Jerold Kayden, a Harvard professor of urban planning and design, asked why the governors of those states couldn’t get together and work out a deal themselves. “I was a governor,” Babbitt reminded Kayden. “This rail corridor is not going to work with seven governors [actually, probably eight or nine, plus the District of Columbia] going their own way.” In the case of interstate highways, “Babbitt maintained, the only way we got clarity was through federal legislation,” and that’s the only way to nail down a high-speed program for the Eastern seaboard. “It’s not going to happen this year,” he acknowledged, but it can be done, he thinks, if there is “a clear purpose,” if the leaders “strip the discretion out” of the legislation, and if they “do it through the political process.”

- “We do approach European densities in megaregions” such as the Boston-to-Washington corridor, said Todorovich. Megaregions — there are about 10 of them around the country, including the Great Lakes, the Texas Triangle (Houston-Dallas-Austin-San Antonio), the Front Range of the Rocky Mountains, and Cascadia (Portland-Tacoma-Seattle) — contain 75 percent of the nation’s population and are key to America’s economic growth, she emphasized.

- For companies that profit from the highway system and automobile-reliant means of transportation, the libertarian or conservative foundations have proven to be useful torch-bearers. SourceWatch, part of the Center for Media and Democracy, reports that Ford Motor, General Motors, DaimlerChrysler, ExxonMobil, Chevron, Shell Oil, and the Western States Petroleum Association, have been among the donors to the Reason Foundation. David H. Koch of Koch Industries, once described by the Center for Public Integrity as "the biggest oil company you have never heard of," is a Reason trustee.

- Nonetheless, Todorovich thinks rail projects can gain considerable support from the populace and some of it from Republicans who hold elective office. After the new governor of Florida, Rick Scott, rejected $2.4 billion in federal funds for the Orlando-Tampa rail route, 24 states, including 11 with Republican governors, applied for portions of the money that Florida gave up.

.....













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  #708  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2011, 8:35 PM
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I don't agree with former Secretary Babbitt that the Obama administration mishandled the HSR program that badly. I chalk it up more to a group of ideologues who oppose just about anything that the Obama administration is in favor of, except for military intervention and actions overseas. We are in a different political era than in the 1950s with much more heated rhetoric from all sides on just about everything. The push for and debate over HSR is just getting started.

One item I noticed was that HSR table from America2050. The numbers for the US are wrong. The NEC is 457 miles long for the electrified corridor from DC to Boston, not 362 miles. Wonder if they took an old number for the electrified portion which was from DC to New Haven up to 10 years ago. The US ridership number in that table of 3.2 million is obviously just the Acela FY2010 numbers. You can't talk Amtrak NEC ridership numbers without including the Northeast Regionals which travel at up to 125 mph which are HSR speeds by most measures. The Northeast Regionals carried 7.15 million passengers in FY2010 for a total of 10.375 million NEC spine passengers according to the Amtrak annual numbers. Those numbers don't include the Keystone service trains, the Carolinian, and the LD trains that operate on the NEC either. It irks me when I see articles on the NEC which focus only on the Acela and ignore all other Amtrak trains that run on it.
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  #709  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2011, 5:15 AM
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Nice... he didn't mention California AT ALL; nor did he talk about how the Northeast already has a head start on High-Speed Rail in Acela.
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  #710  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2011, 2:48 PM
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Nice... he didn't mention California AT ALL; nor did he talk about how the Northeast already has a head start on High-Speed Rail in Acela.
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I don't agree with former Secretary Babbitt that the Obama administration mishandled the HSR program that badly.
I think Babbitt's most important point went right over your heads.
That to build HSR in the USA you need a source of dedicated funding, much like the National Highway Act. Without that source, all rail programs including HSR, must rely upon "discretionary" funding on a yearly basis.

And I would like to add that I believe the last two years have proven his point.

Funding for Highways expired the year Obama took office, and yet programed renewal hasn't been his administration primary concern. Instead, continuing resolutions has been the order of the day, plus extra "stimulus" funds. No attempt has been made to place the Transportation funding back into the black. These actions have placed all Transportation funding basically into yearly discretionary funding column, subject to the will of Congress and the President on a yearly basis.

Last edited by electricron; Apr 22, 2011 at 2:59 PM.
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  #711  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2011, 9:33 PM
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I have an idea for raising money to build HSR--how about selling the Interstates?

1. Economically speaking, they're at or near peak sales value. Wait too long, and you'll lose a lot of potential money.
2. There's no reason why the free market can't handle highly-engineered roads. It happens all the time in Europe (in a regulated environment in France, and as PPPs in Central Europe).
3. Regulatory expenses are much less than direct maintenance and expansion expenses. The budget is consequently shrunk.
4. By using monies gained from the sell-off to invest in HSR, HSR investment becomes extra-budgetary...it would be funded not from the general fund but rather from a specific fund filled by the sell-off of the Interstates. Once the network is complete, any unused funds can then be recycled back into the general fund.
5. In like manner, a maturely operating HSR system can too be sold (or franchised) off.

...That's my idea...
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  #712  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2011, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
I have an idea for raising money to build HSR--how about selling the Interstates?

1. Economically speaking, they're at or near peak sales value. Wait too long, and you'll lose a lot of potential money.
2. There's no reason why the free market can't handle highly-engineered roads. It happens all the time in Europe (in a regulated environment in France, and as PPPs in Central Europe).
3. Regulatory expenses are much less than direct maintenance and expansion expenses. The budget is consequently shrunk.
4. By using monies gained from the sell-off to invest in HSR, HSR investment becomes extra-budgetary...it would be funded not from the general fund but rather from a specific fund filled by the sell-off of the Interstates. Once the network is complete, any unused funds can then be recycled back into the general fund.
5. In like manner, a maturely operating HSR system can too be sold (or franchised) off.

...That's my idea...
Almost an excellent idea. A better idea is to do what Texas has done on a few freeways, only lease them away for 50 years. Of course, only a few over capacity freeways are going to generate much interest by private parties. Even so, existing free lanes remain free.
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  #713  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2011, 12:45 AM
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Almost an excellent idea. A better idea is to do what Texas has done on a few freeways, only lease them away for 50 years. Of course, only a few over capacity freeways are going to generate much interest by private parties. Even so, existing free lanes remain free.
1. Elimination of free lanes altogether (unless the state is willing to pay for it) on limited-access highways is in fact a goal of mine. There is a difference between transportation necessity and transportation luxury and a freeway is just as much a transportation luxury as a fast train or a plane. The fact that we've socialized them here just means we don't see it. Yes the Interstate is an inherently socialist system.

2. There is only one region in France where the freeways are, well, free, and that is Brittany. Again, this is because the government of Brittany subsidizes them. Western Europe's population density is higher than the Intermountain West's, yes, but pretty much any highway east of the Mississippi, or within Texas' urban area, or in California or Cascadia or along the Arizona and Front Range urban belts is going to look pretty darn attractive.

One of the biggest issues is how to deal with those rural Interstates that are more than a hundred miles from the nearest midsize population center, out in the Great Plains, the Rockies, and up in Northern California. One possibility is to bundle these roadways with a more-congested highway elsewhere in the state and sell the two in tandem as a package deal. Another option is just to sell them and see what tolls operators will charge.
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  #714  
Old Posted May 6, 2011, 6:52 PM
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Thursday, May 05, 2011
Illinois receives $186 million in redirected Florida funds

The Illinois Department of Transportation will receive $186 million in high-speed rail funding that’s being redirected from Florida, according to a press release issued yesterday by Sens. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) and Mark Kirk (R-Ill.), and Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn. The money will be used to fund track and other improvements along the Chicago-St. Louis corridor between Dwight and Joliet.

The U.S. Department of Transportation has notified Congress that it has redirected a total of $400 million of the $2 billion in high-speed rail funds rejected by Florida Gov. Rick Scott, the senators said.

Illinois’ application for Florida’s funds included two other projects that are still eligible for funding: an $806.8 million multi-state application for new rail cars and locomotives and a $1 million application for preliminary engineering and environmental work for a new station in East St. Louis, Ill....

— Angela Cotey
http://www.hsrupdates.com/FloridasRe.../details/--877
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  #715  
Old Posted May 6, 2011, 7:05 PM
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This means Illinois has found funding to upgrade the tracks to 110 mph from Alton to Joliet. That leaves just the most urban sections in St.Louis and Chicago metros left, sections I doubt they wanted to upgrade up to 110 mph speeds anyways. Of course, improvements are also needed in these metro sections, if only to eliminate choke points.
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  #716  
Old Posted May 6, 2011, 8:52 PM
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
I think Babbitt's most important point went right over your heads.
That to build HSR in the USA you need a source of dedicated funding, much like the National Highway Act. Without that source, all rail programs including HSR, must rely upon "discretionary" funding on a yearly basis.

And I would like to add that I believe the last two years have proven his point.

Funding for Highways expired the year Obama took office, and yet programed renewal hasn't been his administration primary concern. Instead, continuing resolutions has been the order of the day, plus extra "stimulus" funds. No attempt has been made to place the Transportation funding back into the black. These actions have placed all Transportation funding basically into yearly discretionary funding column, subject to the will of Congress and the President on a yearly basis.
Agreed, I think Babbitt is spot-on. Without political brokering and consensus being achieved in the corridors considered, its just a free-for-all, with teabaggers (or anyone, really) free to politicize and wreck any planning that may occur. You can't allocate money to projects when the local powers-that-be aren't on board. Florida and Wisconsin provide obvious examples.

I think the American people deserve better than that. Nobody politicizes the freeway system today. Even environmentalists receive benefit from it.
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  #717  
Old Posted May 10, 2011, 12:26 PM
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Governor Walker Snubbed: Request For Passenger Rail Funding Denied


http://wiscoprogressive.wordpress.co...senger-rail-d/

Quote:
.....

US Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood happily took back the money allotted to Wisconsin and redistributed it to other states who actually desired to enter the 21st century, provide transportation alternatives and create jobs. Governor Walker then touted the loss of the money as a huge win for his administration, and the taxpayer.

Fast forward a couple of months when our inept governor realized that the Milwaukee to Chicago Hiawatha line actually needs improvements, new train sets and 8 locomotives that would have been provided for with the original $810 million rail grant. So what does he do? He applies for $150 million in federal funds to, well, buy new train sets, replace locomotives, and upgrade the tracks. You can’t make this stuff up.

.....



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  #718  
Old Posted May 10, 2011, 12:37 PM
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Hahaha, what a moron. If $150 Million would've been an improvement, I can only imagine what $810 Million would've done.

BTW, love the Thomas Tank Engine derail photo, Mark. So funny.
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  #719  
Old Posted May 10, 2011, 1:19 PM
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You haven’t seen the trainshed at Milwaukee Intermodal.

Also, the Hiawatha’s brimming with passengers right now—not surprised at this, but as a regular Hiawatha rider I’m a little disappointed.
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  #720  
Old Posted May 10, 2011, 1:36 PM
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
Almost an excellent idea. A better idea is to do what Texas has done on a few freeways, only lease them away for 50 years. Of course, only a few over capacity freeways are going to generate much interest by private parties. Even so, existing free lanes remain free.
Japan has had Electronic Tolling for ages now. It costs about $7 to cross a city. Of course, these highways are built over "free" roads which you are welcome to take... however, they're much much slower.

I'd put tolls on ALL interstates within city limits. Keep intercity travel socialized (still paid for by your taxes). There's no reason to provide free interstates within city limits when there are local alternatives. These roads are also the most congested and the most expensive to maintain.

The revenue goes towards upkeep of the highways which frees up tax dollars to fund rail. Let's face it, people will never go for tolled highways that pay for rail alternatives. It's just not in the American psyche. However, billing the highways as too expensive to maintain necessitating the need for tolls to help offset the costs can work.
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