Atlanta: The Andrea Connector Thread

[RobMidtowner]

Realm, I dont think the idea is to make it more difficult to get into Atlanta (Correct me if I'm wrong Andrea). I think her idea is for the connector to serve people who's destination is Atlanta and not serve people passing through and anyone bypassing Atlanta will use I-285 (which it is designed for anyway). Is that unreasonable to consider?

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by realm0854

Andrea, I resent your implication that I have compared the connector to a piece of art as my principle defense for its existence.

Okay, my apologies. I only mentioned it by way of quoting your description of the connector as "a valuable piece of Atlanta's architecture" and your assertion that although "its conception and existence may be the result of flawed planning theory but now it actually functions as, dare I say it, a place-making enterprise."

I've provided a very detailed fact-based critique of the connector, both historical and modern, and have provided very detailed fact-based alternatives. So I actually wasn't too hot on your contentions that I was merely "moralizing" or tossing out scattered bits of historical data.

In any event, no, of course I don't expect the connector to disappear overnight. Frankly, I've just about come to the conclusion that you can't do anything involving the transportation system in this town without waiting many decades.

But it is a matter of setting goals and priorities, and the time to begin that conversation is now. Arguments that the connector is "just a fact of life" or that "it is the lifeline of downtown!" or that it is otherwise some sort of sacred cow are not only factually suspect, they also serve to reinforce the status quo. I appreciate your views about the connector being an important piece of architecture and a positive place-making tool, but in all candor I must respectfully disagree. There are far better means of creating an urban architecture and creating urban places, both from the aesthetic and functional standpoints.

I've lived with the connector for many decades, and can recall the days when it seemed like some super-duper newfangled invention from Disneyworld. Over the years, however, I've come to understand the damage it has done and the limitations it imposes on our city. We live in a very different world from the pre-WWII era in which planners envisioned downtown as the bustling hub of the city, surrounded by suburban workers who would commute in on modernistic concrete ribbons. To the extent that world ever existed here, it is long gone.

So let me put this plainly: It's not "moralizing" or historical snippets that form the basis for re-thinking the connector. It's the real world that we live in right now. It's also the world we're shaping for future generations. There are certainly many, many conversations that need to be had about how we will do this, but it doesn't help facilitate them when you treat them as trivial puffery. I have no interest in jousting over this, but I have a stake in this city and I won't be ridiculed, dismissed or silenced either. I'm more than happy to hear your views and to take them seriously, but I'd ask that you grant mine equal dignity.

[hoosier]

So what does everyone think about the cancelled freeways that would have gutted Atlanta even further?

Andrea, do you have any maps of the Atlanta highway system with the cancelled freeways shown?

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

Realm, I dont think the idea is to make it more difficult to get into Atlanta (Correct me if I'm wrong Andrea). I think her idea is for the connector to serve people who's destination is Atlanta and not serve people passing through and anyone bypassing Atlanta will use I-285 (which it is designed for anyway). Is that unreasonable to consider?

Rob, yes, that is certainly part of what I'm suggesting. No one can speak in terms of absolutes when it comes to transit, of course, for there will always be multiple destinations and pathways. I would never suggest that some people don't have a legitimate need to pass through Atlanta. And of course there will be reasons for people who live in suburbia to come into the city and for city dwellers to journey to the suburbs.

But what I'm talking about is designing our roads, our busways, rail systems, bike paths and pedestrian pathways with their primary purpose in mind. In some places old-style freeways may be just the ticket. But a "one size fits all" is not a sufficiently nuanced approach to bringing back a city like Atlanta.

Right now I see Atlanta at an important crossroads -- things are beginning to urbanize quickly within some intown districts, and even in some suburban areas. We can foster that, or we can simply follow the precedent that has made us the global poster child for sprawl. But to choose the former course means trying to grow roses, not kudzu. And that takes an experienced gardener's subtle eye and judicious hand. Why not do everything possible to make our city flower?

[holladay]

Well Andrea, I see no reason why this conversation can't continue. I am rather enjoying the on-going dialogue. I have my doubts that we'll ever see eye-to-eye on this but it is nonetheless beneficial to both have the chance to hear your arguments as well as the opportunity to clarify and elaborate on my I own. I do appreciate your commentary on the subject at hand so forgive me if I have slighted you with the judgment that you were moralizing. While I still see that you are indeed, by some stretch, a moralist (i.e. urban purist) I can now see that you have a more thoughtful understanding of Atlanta than some other forumers. I, on the other hand, am very interested in collisions, abruptions, disjoints, ambiguities, networks, transitions, mutations, etc. I do not share in your seeming desire to make Atlanta altogether more wholesome or "complete." Our interests are perspectives on Atlanta are quite different but I think we share the same type of attachment and connection to the city. That said, I welcome your thoughts and hope we can keep the discussion going, as I think it has proven to be very stimulating thus far.

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by Andrea

Covering the connector may make some sense, although I have serious reservations that it will actually be done. And of course any project to reconfigure the connector will not happen overnight. What is critical, however, is that we stop regarding it as a sacrosanct, untouchable thing which must be preserved at all costs.

The plans are in motion. Here is a pdf of the new plan for the Downtown side of the connector. Compared with the current mass of parking lots and neglected streetscapes and structures, the plan is really almost more than anyone could ask for. As you can see in the pdf, the connector is no longer dividing anything and that is only the first set of plans.

[Cosmoboy]

Originally Posted by hoosier

This might be slightly off-topic but I just recently learned that despite the large number of freeways in Atlanta currently, even more were initially planned!!

I did not know that the Lakewood Freeway was supposed to carry I-420 south of central Atlanta, nor did I know that U.S. 78 was intended to hook up to the downtown connector.

Does anyone have maps of the proposed Atlanta highway network with these routes included?

Would Atlanta have been better off with these additional expressways in your opinion?

Here are some pages you might like:
http://www.southeastroads.com/ga-010.html

http://www.southeastroads.com/ga-166.html

http://www.southeastroads.com/ga-013.html

[hoosier]

^Thanks a lot Cosmoboy.

[Toxostoma Rufum]

The connector is fine. We need to get interstate traffic away from Atlanta before it gets near 285.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by realm0854

I do appreciate your commentary on the subject at hand so forgive me if I have slighted you with the judgment that you were moralizing. While I still see that you are indeed, by some stretch, a moralist (i.e. urban purist) I can now see that you have a more thoughtful understanding of Atlanta than some other forumers. I, on the other hand, am very interested in collisions, abruptions, disjoints, ambiguities, networks, transitions, mutations, etc. I do not share in your seeming desire to make Atlanta altogether more wholesome or "complete."

Hm. Well, if that's what you think then you obviously haven't read my posts. I'd like to continue the discussion, too, but it would be a lot more productive if we were proceeding on the basis of what I've actually said rather than some concocted straw man projection of what I've supposedly said. If you want to talk about disconnects and such, then we have something in common. Remember, I grew up in this crazy burg and actually choose to still live here.

[sprtsluvr8]

Originally Posted by catlike

I posted a question concerning this a while back and didn't get a response. 75/85 Southbound at the north end of Midtown and beyond is jammed up just as much as the Northbound side during evening rush hour. Certainly all of these people are not headed downtown in the evening. Buckhead wouldn't produce this many reverse commuters from Midtown/Downtown. Where are they heading, then? Perhaps there is a substantial number of people cutting through downtown at certain times of the day.

Many of them are going to different destinations in the city. A large number of them are headed for I-20, then either east or west to either an intown exit or to their home in the suburbs. But are they coming from a suburb? I doubt it. Who would use the clogged connector to make a 40 mile commute from one suburb to another? People also drive around in town for other reasons besides commuting...

[RobMidtowner]

Does anybody have any actual evidence showing what percentage of traffic uses the connector to go to the city vs. passing through the city? If not, then it's really pointless to make assertions about where we think people are going.

[RobMidtowner]

Originally Posted by Andrea

From my post earlier in this discussion:

1. Check out the traffic counts.

2. Drive the connector and carefully note where people get on and off. You'll see with your own eyes that the vast majority of cars are passing through rather than heading to downtown as a destination. For example, if you're traveling northbound, you literally can't even get off the connector once you pass 5th Street until you get all the way to Buckhead. Or consider this photo and you'll note that almost all the southbound traffic is entering the Connector from I-75 and I-85 NORTH of Midtown. This is typical evening traffic -- these are not people commuting into work. They're commuters from the northern suburbs heading home to suburbs south, east and west of downtown.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/4...7010c321_b.jpg

The photograph is very telling. It shows typical EVENING traffic, which is composed primarily of southbound commuters coming from areas north of Midtown and Downtown, cutting through downtown on their way to suburbs south, east and west of the city. (I don't think anyone would seriously contend that these masses are people returning to their homes in Downtown after a day at work in suburbia).

The situation is reversed in the morning.

Andrea, the link isn't working...

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

Andrea, the link isn't working...

Try this, Rob. http://tinyurl.com/266aq2

I still think that if you really want to understand how the connector works, the best way is to study it with you own eyes -- i.e., drive it with a careful eye to where the majority of vehicles enter and exit. It will be readily apparent that most of them are cut-throughs. This is true of off-peak times as well as morning and evening rush hours. It's a bit of a pain, but worth it if you want to see what's actually happening.

Of course there are also abundant data in the form of traffic counts. The DOT website has extremely detailed information which you can download as spreadsheets, or you can view it in more abbreviated form at the STARS site.

http://www.dot.state.ga.us/dot/plan-...ts/index.shtml

http://www.dot.state.ga.us/dot/plan-.../GA_STARS.html

Another quick way to visualize it is to take a look at the traffic flow maps.

http://www.dot.state.ga.us/DOT/plan-...ne/index.shtml

I'd also suggest taking a look at this to help understand commuting patterns:

http://161.188.204.80/maps/charlotte...=349&map.y=143

Again, it's helpful read all this stuff and study it, but I still recommend doing your own first-hand empirical investigation.

[SteveD]

Andrea, that last one, which shows commuting patterns for Dubuque Iowa, is fascinating! Do you know if there's a nationwide source for such maps and data?

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by SteveD

Andrea, that last one, which shows commuting patterns for Dubuque Iowa, is fascinating! Do you know if there's a nationwide source for such maps and data?

Yeah, Steve, just re-center to Atlanta or wherever you want to go.

Also, if you want a quick take on Atlanta commuting patterns, take a look at the traffic flow map.

[Fiorenza]

It would be informative to study the trendline over time of cut-thrus vs. end-users.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

It would be informative to study the trendline over time of cut-thrus vs. end-users.

I haven't looked at the prior years data in some time, Fiorenza, but it is fairly consistent. As you know, 90% of Atlanta's growth in the past decades has been not only outside of downtown but outside the city limits (i.e., beyond Buckhead, Midtown, the airport and other intown centers) as well. Employment has become increasingly diffuse and the traffic patterns reflect this.

[RobMidtowner]

Originally Posted by Andrea

Try this, Rob. http://tinyurl.com/266aq2

I still think that if you really want to understand how the connector works, the best way is to study it with you own eyes -- i.e., drive it with a careful eye to where the majority of vehicles enter and exit. It will be readily apparent that most of them are cut-throughs. This is true of off-peak times as well as morning and evening rush hours. It's a bit of a pain, but worth it if you want to see what's actually happening.

Of course there are also abundant data in the form of traffic counts. The DOT website has extremely detailed information which you can download as spreadsheets, or you can view it in more abbreviated form at the STARS site.

http://www.dot.state.ga.us/dot/plan-...ts/index.shtml

http://www.dot.state.ga.us/dot/plan-.../GA_STARS.html

Another quick way to visualize it is to take a look at the traffic flow maps.

http://www.dot.state.ga.us/DOT/plan-...ne/index.shtml

I'd also suggest taking a look at this to help understand commuting patterns:

http://161.188.204.80/maps/charlotte...=349&map.y=143

Again, it's helpful read all this stuff and study it, but I still recommend doing your own first-hand empirical investigation.

Thanks Andrea, but I don't see how the traffic flow maps prove that the majority of people are driving through the city and not to the city. I mean it only shows daily volumes and nothing about the percentage exiting the interstate downtown. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't understand how these counts and traffic flow maps prove anything other than the connector having more daily traffic than any other highway facility...am I missing something?

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

Thanks Andrea, but I don't see how the traffic flow maps prove that the majority of people are driving through the city and not to the city. I mean it only shows daily volumes and nothing about the percentage exiting the interstate downtown. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't understand how these counts and traffic flow maps prove anything other than the connector having more daily traffic than any other highway facility...am I missing something?

Rob!

Where do you think all those people in that photograph are coming from and going to? Surely you don't suggest they're returning to their downtown residences after spending the day working in suburbia?

By the way, if you want a clearer picture of where the vehicles are actually going, check the detailed traffic counts at the ramps.