California High Speed Rail Thread

[hammersklavier]

Look, if somebody wants to build a Maglev line they believe can turn an actual profit, then I would say let them go ahead and DO IT.

Most HSR throughout the world has, however, been a direct government investment, and I would not want to see the government directly investing in Maglev as an infrastructure option, so long as it remains a (relatively) untested technology.

This is why I also say to DX: If you think you can build HSR and operate it at a profit, then go ahead and DO IT.

[afiggatt]

Originally Posted by Beta_Magellan

Well, we’re straying quite far from California, but DC-Baltimore maglev makes absolutely no sense—it’s part of the NEC, and all signs point to upgrades of the existing corridor plus some new stretches to allow for true HSR and solve capacity issues. Why invest in DC-Baltimore maglev, which would only go from DC to Baltimore, when you use rails and go DC-New York, Baltimore-Boston, or whatever combination your want. Should DesertXPress eventually link up with CAHSR, it’s the same thing—why invest in a technology that can only be used along one corridor when you could use another which offers much more flexibility?

I could see maglev working in some isolated corridors that demand high speeds and don’t need to link up with the larger rail network (Colorado comes to mind—I think maglev’s been studied for various north-south corridors there), but it really doesn’t make sense to make an intercity network using incompatible technologies. It doesn’t matter whether this is the only serious maglev proposal in the country—the only thing that matters is whether or not it makes sense to use the technology in this corridor.

I agree. My take on Maglev is that it is an expensive solution in search of the application where steel wheel rail is not the more cost effective and better option. In the case of the proposed DC-Baltimore maglev, the NEC between DC and Baltimore can be upgraded to four tracks with increased overall speeds and MARC can be expanded to 7 day service for a lot less than the cost of the Maglev line.

[JDRCRASH]

Originally Posted by Beta_Magellan

It doesn’t matter whether this is the only serious maglev proposal in the country—the only thing that matters is whether or not it makes sense to use the technology in this corridor.

How can you have a technology "proven" then? By examples. Right now there is only one.

[Gordo]

The advantages of any current maglev technology simply aren't high enough to support any use in the US. It's a much better use of dollars to build conventional HSR and more intra-urban area transit, and likely will be for the next 100 years.

Now, if we start talking about maglev that can achieve 500+ mph speeds in operation (at decent levels of energy usage), maybe there could be some use. To me, maglev is the same as supersonic filght - cool, yes, but never likely to be very useful because the additional relatively small increase in speed isn't worth the HUGE increase in energy usage and cost.

[JDRCRASH]

Well there's no rolling resistance associate with Maglev technology, so energy efficiency could be higher than steel wheels.

[zilfondel]

Japan's building their Chuo line. So, in abut 10+ years, we'll see. It is highly expensive to both build and operate, but shouldn't require as much maintenance - there are no rails to wear out. But who knows.

Starting from the ground up, would make no sense to build maglev. Most other countries have extensive normal-speed rail lines that move lots of people, which we barely have in the US.

[OhioGuy]

The Florida Supreme Court upheld this morning the governor's right to reject the high speed rail money allocated to the state by the Federal Government. Presumably a sizable chunk of this money will be reallocated to California. I'll be anxious to hear whether it enables the initial line to be constructed any further beyond the Bakersfield to Fresno portion. Will they be able to extend to to Palmdale and maybe even potentially Sylmar for the first phase?

[JDRCRASH]

Originally Posted by OhioGuy

The Florida Supreme Court upheld this morning the governor's right to reject the high speed rail money allocated to the state by the Federal Government. Presumably a sizable chunk of this money will be reallocated to California. I'll be anxious to hear whether it enables the initial line to be constructed any further beyond the Bakersfield to Fresno portion. Will they be able to extend to to Palmdale and maybe even potentially Sylmar for the first phase?

I doubt it, since the Bakersfield-Palmdale segment involves boring a tunnel.

[afiggatt]

Originally Posted by JDRCRASH

I doubt it, since the Bakersfield-Palmdale segment involves boring a tunnel.

Multiple tunnels at that. Looking at the CHSRA Preliminary Analysis staff report document for the Bakersfield-Palmdale segment (http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/Ba..._Palmdale.aspx) , the Tehachapi subsection alternate alignments that are being carried forward in the preliminary study have total tunnel lengths ranging from 10.7 to 16 miles and elevated length of 5 to 10.9 miles. The various alternative routes carried forward keep the grade slope under the maximum design of 3.5% with average sustained slopes of 2.5% to 2.75%. The route from Bakersfield to Palmdale will be expensive and with 10 to 16 miles of dual tunnels to bore out, is going to take some years of construction work. The sooner they can make the decision on the final route, get started on the detailed design and ROW acquisition the better.

The Florida HSR funds are in 2 pots: around $1.6 billion of stimulus funds and $800 million of FY2010 funds. If CA gets $800 million to $1 billion of that, combined with some matching state bond money amount, that might allow them to complete the build from Bakersfield to Merced along with the heavy maintenance facility if that is the approach the CHSRA decides to take.

[202_Cyclist]

High-speed rail line environmental data delayed


Mar. 04, 2011
By Tim Sheehan

"Reports on the environmental effects of high-speed trains in the Valley will be delayed for several months as engineers seek less costly ways to build the project.

The delay will not postpone the anticipated start of construction in late 2012, the California High-Speed Rail Authority said. But it will push the environmental assessments beyond a fall deadline in the state's agreement for billions in federal dollars.

"Only the estimated schedule for environmental milestones has changed," authority CEO Roelof van Ark said this week. "The schedule for construction has not."

A 120-mile stretch of high-speed tracks between Fresno and Bakersfield is tabbed to be the first portion built for California's high-speed train system..."

http://www.fresnobee.com/2011/03/04/...rail-line.html

[electricron]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

High-speed rail line environmental data delayed. The delay will not postpone the anticipated start of construction in late 2012, the California High-Speed Rail Authority said. But it will push the environmental assessments beyond a fall deadline in the state's agreement for billions in federal dollars.

Doesn't not meeting the deadlines in the state's agreement with the Feds place this whole project at risk? I can forsee some Congressmen using this excuse to push for rescinding Federal funds.

CHSR planners should work triple time to meet this fall's deadline if that is required. Meet your promises, or loose all credibility. HSR projects around the country are falling like dominoes, and I'm afraid CHSR is next.

[JDRCRASH]

I'm afraid electricon is right. No longer can people afford to take their time trying to study and build infrastructure projects across the nation (even in California and the NE states, both places where support is strong). The political climate has changed, unfortunately. We have an insane political movement of truly unprecedented proportions, with daftarses in Congress bent on wasting everyone else's time by cutting the limbs of civic services. The bottom line is if you're the CHSR Authority, it's time to put up or shut up.

[Beta_Magellan]

Before we go all chicken little, let’s first note that this is happening with the FRA’s approval. From the end of the article:

The new timeline won't jeopardize the federal funds because the state has the blessing of the Federal Railroad Administration, said Rachel Wall, the state authority's press secretary.
"Everything we do is in partnership with FRA," Wall said. "They're aware and they're involved in planning progress."

And the cause of the delay is:

A ground-level track originally was among the options being considered, but was abandoned because engineers believed it would not be feasible, a state official said.
"A number of the aerial structures that were proposed in the Central Valley now can be eliminated," Umberg said. "That track can be at grade rather than on aerial structures."
Over the past couple of months, van Ark said, engineers have been looking at route options "to identify opportunities to minimize environmental impacts and also to take a hard look to see if there are reasonable ways to reduce project costs."
The exact savings aren't known, but reducing the amount of elevated tracks could shave tens of millions from the price of the Fresno-Bakersfield section, estimated at about $5.5 billion.

I’d argue that they were mistaken to not investigate the at-grade option before (which could have avoided this deadline extension), but seeing that they didn’t do that I’d rather they take the time to reduce the cost and complexity of the project down the road than going ahead with a project that’s more expensive than it needs to be.

[fflint]

^Good post.

[Godwindaniel]

I had an doubt whether it have all the features like japanese and chinese trains. Whether it contains all the luxuries and comfort as other trains.


________________________________________________________
gps tracking | gps fleet tracking

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Godwindaniel

I had an doubt whether it have all the features like japanese and chinese trains. Whether it contains all the luxuries and comfort as other trains.

Can you elaborate? I don't know Chinese trains, but Japanese trains vary, depending on the series.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Beta_Magellan

Before we go all chicken little, let’s first note that this is happening with the FRA’s approval. From the end of the article:



And the cause of the delay is:



I’d argue that they were mistaken to not investigate the at-grade option before (which could have avoided this deadline extension), but seeing that they didn’t do that I’d rather they take the time to reduce the cost and complexity of the project down the road than going ahead with a project that’s more expensive than it needs to be.

Just for clarification, the CAHSR project won't have any level crossings, right?

[northbay]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Just for clarification, the CAHSR project won't have any level crossings, right?

that is correct

[electricron]

No level at grade crossings are in the plans now, but who knows how many there will be after this new delay causing review trying to save money? Grade separated crossings cost $10 to $20 Million each. You can save significant amounts of money if you're willing to have at grade crossings, especially in cities near train stations where the HSR trains have already slowed down.

[fflint]

Motor vehicles and pedestrians will NOT touch the HSR tracks regardless of the eventual design.