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  #381  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2007, 10:25 PM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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New condo project in the works downtown...two towers, one at 36 stories and 360' and the other at 23 stories.



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  #382  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2007, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewkfromaz View Post
It's the two I left in there. Sky Harbor isn't really a major factor in downtown Phoenix, the FAA has shown that buildings far taller (700' and up) are permissible in the urban core, the freeway system literally revolves around downtown, I don't know what more transportation infrastructure you need other than light rail. People's mentality has been that downtowns are not places they want to be. This goes for potential residents as well as businesses.
A factor you missed is that the big multinational businesses that tend to build and occupy high-rises are notably absent from Phoenix. Much smaller cities have more Fortune 500-level corporate headquarters, which directly translates into more high-rise commercial buildings, which translate into more interest in living downtown. We'll see what the future brings, but I doubt we'll see a lot of high-rise commercial structures downtown in the coming years. We'll see...

hmmm, i've always wondered why the phoenix skyline doesn't match the metro's position as one of the largest and fastest growing in the us.

since i moved here from atlanta, that's always my basis for comparison - interestingly phoenix and atlanta are both characterized by ever-expanding sprawl and a growing suburban landscape know as much for office space and retail as residential. still, atlanta has a decent downtown and a fairly remarkable skyline for it's size. as far as fortune 500 presence, most of atlanta's F500 companies aren't located in highrises (home depot, ups, rubbermaid, cox communications, etc...are all lowrise suburban) even coke's hq is roughly 30 stories and is located in an unremarkable building outside of downtown or midtown.

anyway, not sure what has 'held back' the phoenix skyline. i will say this, of the top 10 cities, phoenix by far has the most opportunity to take off with a few signature towers.
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  #383  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2007, 1:41 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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There are a number of factors. Let me touch on a few of the highlights:

1. Atlanta is much older and was much larger than Phoenix (and still is, today).

1860:

Atlanta: 10,000
Phoenix: zero

In 1900:

Atlanta: 90,000
Phoenix: 5,000

In 1950:

Atlanta: 331,000
Phoenix: 106,000

Back then, Phoenix was nestled between Allentown, PA and Corpus Christi, Texas, in terms of total population. It was essentially a dusty agricultural community in the middle of nowhere, far from the centers of power or industry in the United States. Atlanta was in much bigger city company and was the leading city in the southeast - bigger than anything else at the time. Denver and Dallas were each four times bigger than Phoenix in 1950, San Diego three times bigger and Houston almost six times larger.

2. Phoenix's growth came too late to develop a dense core of pre-war housing. Phoenix's first decade of real substantive growth was in the 1950s, and what were they known for? Yep, cars, highways and suburbia. Inner cities all over America began a long decline and many of the G.I.s coming to Phoenix after WWII were looking to start families and bought single-family homes.

1960:

Atlanta: 487,000
Phoenix: 429,000

As you can see, Phoenix began to sprawl into the desert during this time. Although the city populations were close, the metro populations (using today's definitions) were hugely far apart:

1960 metro populations:

Atlanta: 1.64 million
Phoenix: 678,000

By 1970, Atlanta's sprawl was going full-bore. Phoenix was exploding as well, but Phoenix was working off of a much smaller population base.

1970 metro populations:

Atlanta: 2.3 million
Phoenix: 975,000

It was also in the 1950s and 1960s that large corporations (driving a lot of business, finance and law firms before them) began to coalesce into the larger cities. Atlanta was a logical choice. She had a fairly large population base by 1970, and there were no other major cities nearby to siphon off development. In contrast, Phoenix was a lot smaller, still backwards with no freeways or mass transit. A lot of businesses thus went to Los Angeles or San Diego (and possibly even to Denver, Dallas and Houston) instead of Phoenix.

To use a planetary analogy, Atlanta was like Earth and Phoenix like Mars. Phoenix was too small to hold on to her atmosphere, like Mars, so to speak, and most of it was lost to space. Earth/Atlanta, being bigger, was able to hold on to her atmosphere and attract businesses.

By 1980, the differences were cemented.

1980 metro populations:

Atlanta: 3.2 million
Phoenix: 1.5 million

1990 metro populations:

Atlanta: 4.2 million
Phoenix: 2.3 million

2000 metro populations:

Atlanta: 5.2 million
Phoenix: 3.3 million

2007 metro populations (estimated):

Atlanta: 6.1 million
Phoenix: 4.1 million

As you can see, even today Atlanta is fully half again as large as Phoenix. Phoenix has virtually no major company presence - I think we have three fortune 500 companies, compared to something like 15 or 20 for Atlanta's metro area. And even if those companies don't build high-rises themselves, the activity they attract does. It fills downtown CBD skyscrapers like there is no tomorrow. I think Atlanta has something like three to four times as much office space and workers downtown than Phoenix.

3. Phoenix is more traditional and people and governments here tend to like their buildings (and governments) small. There is a distinct anti-urban, anti-highrise mentality that affects people here. They came here to escape "big city ills" and they don't want to replicate that in the desert. People here like their "views of the mountains" and get cranky when developers start talking about big skyscrapers. As a result, development here tends to be of the lowest common denominator type - low-slung and boring homes, because it's easy to get sprawl approved here. Don't build tall - that's been the mantra of Arizona development for almost 50 years. Don't rock the boat, build safe and low-density stuff.

Phoenix is slowly changing but it takes time, much like weaning a crack addict off the juice. Atlanta is more progressive and less conservative. Developers there take risks and getting tall projects approved appears to be much easier, at least based on their respective skylines.

4. Phoenix does have some height limitations because of the airport. We will never have 1,000 foot towers (unlike Atlanta) because Sky Harbor is too close to downtown. We could have taller towers further north but those are adjacent to residential neighborhoods with lots of NIMBYs. They get bent over 20-30 story projects "killing their views," so you can imagine the kind of shitstorm that erupts if someone starts talking about 40 and 50 story projects. And frankly, there's little demand for high-rises here.

5. Most of the population that filled Phoenix during her early development years came from the upper midwest - small towns and cities with little urban mindset. People don't typically move to Phoenix and live in high-rises. They want horses on a 40-acre parcel of desert, or at least a private pool to thrash around in.

I guess this all makes Phoenix unique amongst large American cities - the shortest skyline of all. Knowing these historical factors might help explain why Phoenix is they way it is today.

--don
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  #384  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2007, 3:48 AM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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Bump/test, since my last post didn't move this thread up, and I see more responses after mine not showing.

--don
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  #385  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2007, 4:35 PM
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sundevilgrad sundevilgrad is offline
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Here's a link to the Phoenix Development thread. This page has some great pics of all the activity DT. 5 tower cranes!

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...120676&page=87

Projects underway:
44 Monroe (34-story condo tower)
Sheraton Hotel (32?-story Hotel)
ASU Dorms (2 13-story student living buildings)
ASU Cronkite School of Journalism (6-story 100+ ft)
Alta Phoenix (5 or 6 building up to 8? stories)
Summit at Copper Square (22-story condo tower)
Phoenix Convention Center
Light Rail Construction (almost finished DT)

PHX forumers, please correct any thing I listed incorrectly.
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  #386  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2007, 4:51 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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Here's a photoshopped image showing what Phoenix might look like toward the end of 2009, if both Central Park East and CityScape join 44 Monroe and the Sheraton hotel which are both under construction now...


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  #387  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2007, 1:51 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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Twin 45-story residential project proposed by SW Development Group LLC. The project will be located Between Central and First Streets on Willetta. That is right between the Library and the Phoenix Art Museum (in the parking lot just to the south of the CVS). The Blue Fin will stay but the other building will be demolished.

Thanks to Archdevil for the find, and some of the text above.

Rendering:


Tempe has a lot of stuff in the pipeline:


--don
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  #388  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2007, 11:05 PM
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Philly-Drew Philly-Drew is offline
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I would like to see some more high rise development in Phoenix. I think that the mentality that some people have who would like to keep the skyline low sucks. Philadelphia had that same mentality for over 300 years!
Don B. That is a cool comparison between Atlanta and Phoenix. I’d be really interested to see those same stats but instead of comparing the metro areas compare both the city proper population and the city proper square mileage.
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  #389  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2007, 4:37 AM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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I revised the Tempe skyscrapers list. Pretty amazing for a suburb of only 170,000 people:



--don
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  #390  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2007, 3:09 AM
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PhxPavilion PhxPavilion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. View Post
Twin 45-story residential project proposed by SW Development Group LLC. The project will be located Between Central and First Streets on Willetta. That is right between the Library and the Phoenix Art Museum (in the parking lot just to the south of the CVS). The Blue Fin will stay but the other building will be demolished.

Thanks to Archdevil for the find, and some of the text above.

--don
One can only hope. They're pretty nice looking as well.
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  #391  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2007, 5:19 PM
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sundevilgrad sundevilgrad is offline
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New Tallest!

It doesn't look like any of the Phoenix forumers posted here about this, so I guess I will...

The City Scape project (4 towers, $900 million investement privately/publicly funded) has announced that Phase I, scheduled to breakground in a few months, will include a new tallest for Phoenix. The tower will be 525 ft, which is 40+ ft taller than the current tallest. Here's a low-resolution rendering of the project:


It will be built in the middle of DT, just north of the US Airways Center and provide DT with some much needed density and a new tallest!

P.S. - for more info, see the CityScape thread:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...117961&page=26
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  #392  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2007, 2:01 AM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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Three 32-story, 400-foot skyscrapers proposed as part of One Phoenix:





Location: NW Corner of McDowell and Central Avenue, between downtown and uptown/midtown Phoenix skylines (will help fill in the gap nicely).

--don
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  #393  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2007, 2:22 AM
FireMedic FireMedic is offline
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Smile

They look awesome, I hope they really happen :)
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  #394  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2007, 2:54 AM
Dale Dale is offline
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Very nice. Do I see aluminum ?
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  #395  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2007, 4:15 AM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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^ I'm not sure.

Their website said 32 stories, but I count 42 stories, which makes more sense for a 400' building. ???

We know 400' is correct because that is the zoning height they are seeking.

--don
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  #396  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2007, 6:31 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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What is their website?

www.one-phoenix.com doesn't have any information up, just says that an announcement will be made Fall 2007.
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  #397  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2007, 10:32 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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Regards Omega:

He's planning 34 stories, and hopes to break ground in 2008.

--don
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  #398  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2007, 6:56 AM
Azndragon837 Azndragon837 is offline
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WOW Don, good find. Those towers will definately fill that large, angry gap between Downtown and Midtown! Those towers look awesome for being tall, thin rectangles!

-Andrew
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  #399  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2007, 7:02 AM
Azndragon837 Azndragon837 is offline
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For those outsiders not familiar with Phoenix's famous skyline gap: Phoenix's skyline actually stretches out for several miles north and south (up to 5 miles) along it's main drag, Central Avenue.

Back in the 1960s, the city decided to zone that northern stretch of Central Avenue for high-rises. The result is a weird double skyline, one clustering around Downtown, and one Midtown. If Phoenix had not proceeded with the biggest planning mistake in its history, we would have a skyline almost similar to Portland's or even Vancouver's (well, a bit smaller than Vancouver's huge skyline).

The One Phoenix project will locate itself on a large parcel of land at the NWC of Central Avenue and McDowell Road, next to a future light rail station, and across the street from the Phoenix Art Museum. McDowell and Central is sort of the epicenter of the gap between Downtown and Midtown, and will fill in and top the gap off with a lovely 400 footer.

Don, if you have any images or maps to show...please do, because I don't have any on file right now.

-Andrew
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  #400  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2007, 6:52 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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Renderings courtesy Callison Architects, Seattle, WA







Older rendering, but shows more of the total scope:



WHAT: Cityscape (mixed-use project), which at build-out is planned to consist of four towers:

Tower 1: 388' and 31 stories
Tower 2: 400' and 32 stories
Tower 3: 450' and 40 stories
Tower 4: 525' and 44 stories

http://www.downtownphxrising.org/project_vision.asp

FEATURES: 800,000 square feet of office space, 1,200 residential units; restaurants, grocery stores, and retail space. Total footage: 2.5 million square feet.

WHERE: Downtown Phoenix, covering three city blocks in the heart of the city. The boundaries are: 1st Avenue to the west, 2nd Street to the east, Washington Street to the north, and Jefferson Street to the south. The project is adjacent to the US Airways Center and within two blocks of Chase Field. The Light Rail Transit System (LRT) runs on three sides of the project with two nearby rail stations providing convenient access.

TOTAL INVESTMENT: About $1 billion USD.

WHO: CityScape involves the financial strength and entrepreneurial vision of several local and national development partners, all commited to downtown Phoenix.

RED Development, LLC - Shopping center development, multi-use projects and master-planned communities; Scottsdale, Arizona/Kansas City, Missouri

CDK Partners, LLC - Creates, develops, leases, owns and manages innovative mixed-use commercial, residential and hospitality related urban spaces.

Barron Collier Companies - Real estate development, agriculture and minerals; Naples, Florida/Phoenix, Arizona

Novare Group - High-rise real estate development including condominiums and office; Atlanta, Georgia

Callison Architects - Commercial and mixed-use project design; Seattle, Washington

MAJOR RETAILERS: A.J.'s Fine Foods will open a grocery store in the project, and P.F. Chang's will open a restaurant as well.

WHEN: Breaking ground now (site prep underway), substantive ground-breaking in a few months (late fall 2007) with first phase opening in 2009, completion slated for 2011 to 2012.

APPROVAL: Formal Phoenix City Council approval came on 10-5-06:

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/sp...evote1005.html

Phoenix City Council members on Wednesday approved a blockbuster deal that clears the way for the single largest private investment project ever in the downtown area. The 2.5 million-square-foot mixed-use venture, known as CityScape, is estimated to cost as much as $900 million, and could open in early 2009.

"Today is a really huge day for our downtown's development," Councilwoman Peggy Bilsten said shortly before the council's vote. "(This project) complements everything we've done so far."

Phoenix officials believe CityScape is the last remaining piece in their ongoing effort to rebuild the city's core. It will bring more residents, housing and office space to the area, plus a much-anticipated AJ's Fine Foods, the first downtown grocery store in nearly 25 years.

The project had initially raised the ire of many community groups and activists after they learned that plans called for it to be built, in part, on downtown's only real open space, Patriots Square Park. But under the agreement approved Wednesday, the project's developers and the city will have to work with the public to redesign the park. Phoenix will also retain ownership of the open space.

That news came as a relief to many residents and groups, who are asking that the developers abide by design recommendations recently set forth by the city's Parks and Recreation Board. That panel has stated that the park contain at least 2 contiguous acres of space, among other things.

Attracting people

"The park redevelopment process must begin with a clean piece of paper and not a series of artists' concepts rendered without citizens' input," said Steve Weiss, spokesman for the Downtown Voices Coalition, a community group. Mike Ebert, managing partner for RED Development, which is building the project, said he is looking forward to working with the parks board.

"This will be a place that attracts people," Ebert said. "Not just for staged events, but for the unstaged events that happen in every day life."

Plans call for CityScape to include 250,000 square feet of retail and restaurant space, about 1,260 residential units, a boutique hotel, two office towers, and 3,000 parking spaces. Phoenix will invest financially in the project, purchasing an underground parking structure and paying for repairs on an existing parking garage at a cost of $96.5 million. In addition, the city will waive the property taxes on the development's key components for eight years, a financial incentive that is worth at least $26 million, according to official estimates. But the project's developers will have to meet a host of requirements to receive the city money, including adhering to the parks board design guidelines for Patriots Square Park and providing a $13 million letter of credit to cover any revenue shortfalls during the first few years the project is open.

Ebert said he is looking forward to getting started. "It's been a challenge to get here today, but you can view challenges as roadblocks, or they can be viewed as an opportunity to showcase your creativity," he said.

Wednesday's vote came after nearly 90 minutes of discussion, most of it in favor of the project. But not everyone was happy with what he or she saw.

'Downtown for everyone'

C.R. Vavrek, who lives in downtown Phoenix, said he was concerned because many area residents can't afford to shop at high-end retailers. "I know a lot of people who live downtown, but we're low income," he said. "I'm not sure we can afford to shop at AJ's." I was wondering if there is going to be any low-income sales or medium-income sales."

Mayor Phil Gordon assured Vavrek and others that the development would accommodate all residents, not just the wealthy or business elite. "This is a downtown for everyone, and we're going to make it work for everyone," he said.




--don
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