PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Radio5

Going anywhere west is more expensive, I've found... Austin, LA. It was about $100 more to go from Philly than EWR or JFK.

Who's going to Newark (or even worse JFK) to save $100? You have to be bonkers to think it's worth getting all the way to JFK to "save" $100.

I'm only going to Newark to save a minimum of $300 and even then I'd be pressed. The reason I'm going to Newark is to fly direct to international destinations. I'm only going to JFK if I have a gun to my head or flying Cathay to Asia.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by cardeza

To me savings need to be in the hundreds of dollars to justify going north and my understanding is EWR is hardly a nice airport. My brother lives about 30 minutes north of BWI and still flys out of Philly half the time because of limited options from BWI and the distance and hassle of going to Dulles isn't worth it.

Historically not nice, but EWR has improved A LOT in recent years. The new terminal A opened last year, and Terminal C (United's primary terminal) is fine. Terminal B is a hole, but its days are numbered.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Who's going to Newark (or even worse JFK) to save $100? You have to be bonkers to think it's worth getting all the way to JFK to "save" $100.

I'm only going to Newark to save a minimum of $300 and even then I'd be pressed. The reason I'm going to Newark is to fly direct to international destinations. I'm only going to JFK if I have a gun to my head or flying Cathay to Asia.

Makes sense, and also going through the time inconvenience of going up there for anything less than a transatlantic flight makes little sense to me. I'm not spending 2 hours in a car each way for a 2-5 hr flight. I can be at PHL in 30 min if its off peak and traffic is moving.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Historically not nice, but EWR has improved A LOT in recent years. The new terminal A opened last year, and Terminal C (United's primary terminal) is fine. Terminal B is a hole, but its days are numbered.

got you. Again, nothing that would entice me to travel 2 hrs. Terminal A west and F at PHL are nice and the food and B-C retail area have been upgraded as have many of the terminal bathrooms. Baggage claim area needs work but bathrooms are being renovated there now and the Airport line stops are all being upgraded along with the entrances. I heard new seating will be installed in preparation for 2026.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Not sure where you are flying, but it is not always more expensive. I tracked flights for months to Punta Cana and Newark and JFK were more expensive. Ive compared other times as well and even if they were cheaper it was hardly enough to justify the travel cost and time. PHL is very competitive to major destinations in the US and Carribean- maybe less so to Europe due to lack of flight competition.

My partner is in aviation and we travel a lot to other US cities and internationally. In the past year or so, I’ve done Cape Town, Mexico City, Puerto Vallarta, Ibiza, Amsterdam, Charlotte, Myrtle Beach, and headed to London in a month.

PHL has quite a markup on the ticket prices. So we always look up prices in DC and NYC because often directs out of there are cheaper. Example, for London, out of Philly it’s like $950 roadtrip economy and $7500 for first class. Out of NYC, it is like $600 roadtrip economy and $5500, and out of Boston there’s deals on first class for 25k miles + $1200 round trip. Philly is consistently the most expensive and has limited routes. And god help you if you want to fly first class out of Philly, the costs are outrageous.

Philly has competitive fairs for budget locations like Orlando, Miami, Vegas, Myrtle Beach, the Caribbean, etc though. It’s just rough for frequent flyers who want to use miles to travel, fly direct, or interested in upgraded classes. And not many lounges in Philly either…which does make a difference when you are doing long flights (15-24 hours).

[Mr Saturn64]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Baggage at PHL travels a substantial distance and some has to be placed on vehicles and driven underneath the main terminal to be moved to the conveyor belts, but I have not had consistent long waits for baggage- sometimes it takes a while, but other times its been on par with other airports. At larger airports I think you can consistently expect inconsistent waits. I would say we waited about 10-15 minutes for baggage to show from the time we arrived at baggage claim the last time I checked bags back in December.

You got lucky then. I was waiting 25 minutes at the baggage claim at Terminal D last October at 10 at night. After that the luggage was delivered to the wrong carousel. It was miserable.

Originally Posted by cardeza

Also, people need to remember the capital plan is approved by the airlines and this is one reason why the prior capacity enhancement project died- the airlines did not support the proposed cost because of what they would end up passing on to customers and they were not convinced of the ROI.

I don't recall this project. Can you tell me more about it/provide links if you have any?

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by jaysb

My fam of 4 usually trips to Europe twice a year, I cannot recall the last time we flew out of Philly. EWR/JFK are usually half the price. PHL->Europe serves a lot of connecting flights while EWR/JFK serve their home market.
Competition is real, I lived in MIA for two years, there were like 80 airlines serving that airport (pre-pandemic- I didn't think there were that many airlines period haha); flights to LATAM were so cheap, even on American.
Newark is a great 2nd airport at a little over an hour by car. JFK sucks. (not trying to sound braggadocios, just my anecdotal experience with PHL).
It's cool American is serving some smaller markets from here, Copenhagen, Dubrovnik, etc. And yes, the Caribe isn't too bad from PHL.

Agreed. Newark is a decent option. Unfortunately, we have to deal with JFK bc it’s an American hub. But honestly, we just started flying some out of Dulles. Renting a car and driving there can save a good bit and get a direct. It’s a good backup to Newark.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

My partner is in aviation and we travel a lot to other US cities and internationally. In the past year or so, I’ve done Cape Town, Mexico City, Puerto Vallarta, Ibiza, Amsterdam, Charlotte, Myrtle Beach, and headed to London in a month.

PHL has quite a markup on the ticket prices. So we always look up prices in DC and NYC because often directs out of there are cheaper. Example, for London, out of Philly it’s like $950 roadtrip economy and $7500 for first class. Out of NYC, it is like $600 roadtrip economy and $5500, and out of Boston there’s deals on first class for 25k miles + $1200 round trip. Philly is consistently the most expensive and has limited routes. And god help you if you want to fly first class out of Philly, the costs are outrageous.

Philly has competitive fairs for budget locations like Orlando, Miami, Vegas, Myrtle Beach, the Caribbean, etc though. It’s just rough for frequent flyers who want to use miles to travel, fly direct, or interested in upgraded classes. And not many lounges in Philly either…which does make a difference when you are doing long flights (15-24 hours).

I will restate the obvious- if you primarily fly to Europe (which seems to be everyone on here but me) its not ideal. Most people are not flying to Europe- those are just the facts. We all know why there are far more international flights out of NYC metro and that is to be expected- it's probably the top region in the US for international flights- or at least flights to Europe. Business travel is slow so most travel (especially out of PHL) is leisure travel and there are plenty of flights to areas where folks vacation.

I have an AA card- you can definitely use points out of PHL- maybe not if you need to go to Europe many times per year though.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by cardeza

I will restate the obvious- if you primarily fly to Europe (which seems to be everyone on here but me) its not ideal. Most people are not flying to Europe- those are just the facts. We all know why there are far more international flights out of NYC metro and that is to be expected- it's probably the top region in the US for international flights- or at least flights to Europe. Business travel is slow so most travel (especially out of PHL) is leisure travel and there are plenty of flights to areas where folks vacation.

I have an AA card- you can definitely use points out of PHL- maybe not if you need to go to Europe many times per year though.

It’s not just Europe though; it’s anywhere international outside of the Caribbean. PHL simply doesn’t have a lot of international flights (Asia, Africa, South America) and bc they have limited other carriers, their prices are higher. This isn’t bc NYC is bigger with more flights. The real issue is American sold off its older Boeings during Covid bc they were expecting Boeing to deliver new planes, which are now delayed. This is why Americans overall international flight footprint is dwarfed by United (mostly) and Delta.

Philly is fine for domestic unless you are flying to another AA hub. Example PHL to CLT is outrageous, and will set u back $350-600 rt instead of the $150-250 if we had more airline competition at the airport.

Overall, PHL is consistently more expensive than other airports on many flights.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

It’s not just Europe though; it’s anywhere international outside of the Caribbean. PHL simply doesn’t have a lot of international flights (Asia, Africa, South America) and bc they have limited other carriers, their prices are higher. This isn’t bc NYC is bigger with more flights. The real issue is American sold off its older Boeings during Covid bc they were expecting Boeing to deliver new planes, which are now delayed. This is why Americans overall international flight footprint is dwarfed by United (mostly) and Delta.

Philly is fine for domestic unless you are flying to another AA hub. Example PHL to CLT is outrageous, and will set u back $350-600 rt instead of the $150-250 if we had more airline competition at the airport.

Overall, PHL is consistently more expensive than other airports on many flights.

For super long distances I think many people are used to needing a connecting flight, even if it costs them in terms of time. The international menu needs to be improved (and it is improving as they recover from COVID and add more Euro flights) but that is not the primary vacation destination for most people. Considering how often the average person (not business) travels to Europe, most can probably deal with going to NYC area for such flights. PHL is busy and is getting closer to its pre covid peak- I think they project that will be next year- so a lot of people are using it and Frontier has added tons of flights there which should help with pricing. My point is in spite of the fact that almost no one here flies out of PHL, many in the region do and my understanding is competition at American airports is generally on the decline and many non top 10 cities have it far worse than we do in terms of lack of direct flights and/or lack of competition. And as someone else said, "cheaper" is relative. $50 or $100 dollars cheaper from an airport 70 miles away is barely cheaper when you factor in all other costs.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

It’s not just Europe though; it’s anywhere international outside of the Caribbean. PHL simply doesn’t have a lot of international flights (Asia, Africa, South America) and bc they have limited other carriers, their prices are higher. This isn’t bc NYC is bigger with more flights. The real issue is American sold off its older Boeings during Covid bc they were expecting Boeing to deliver new planes, which are now delayed. This is why Americans overall international flight footprint is dwarfed by United (mostly) and Delta.

Philly is fine for domestic unless you are flying to another AA hub. Example PHL to CLT is outrageous, and will set u back $350-600 rt instead of the $150-250 if we had more airline competition at the airport.

Overall, PHL is consistently more expensive than other airports on many flights.

Just did google flights and checked EWR to CLT for 4/7 to 4/12- nonstop is $637, JFK is $693 on delta and from PHL its $268 on Frontier and $537 for AA

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Mr Saturn64

You got lucky then. I was waiting 25 minutes at the baggage claim at Terminal D last October at 10 at night. After that the luggage was delivered to the wrong carousel. It was miserable.


I don't recall this project. Can you tell me more about it/provide links if you have any?

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...pact-statement

It was a massive proposal for billions to redo the airport and add capacity. The Airlines did not support moving fwd with the debt service required to make it happen based on travel levels at that time and told PHL to focus on more nuts and bolts improvements to buildings and the airfield. Essentially, American and others felt that the surcharge costs would have chased away too many passengers and been counterproductive. Also, some said spending that kind of money to enhance capacity made no sense considering the airspace limitations PHL faces.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Just did google flights and checked EWR to CLT for 4/7 to 4/12- nonstop is $637, JFK is $693 on delta and from PHL its $268 on Frontier and $537 for AA

Just bc you pull up one instance doesn’t make your point true for the whole. I fly PHL to CLT about 3 times a year, and usually the cost out of PHL is more expensive.

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by cardeza

American is adding 3 or 4 more european destinations this year. If Europe is the primary place you fly, I'm sure Newark is better- but thats not where most people are flying from PHL and for domestic flights I haven't seen much evidence going to Newark makes sense. Hour drive? Maybe in the middle of the night. Tolls are probably $30-$40k plus fuel, time and traffic. To me savings need to be in the hundreds of dollars to justify going north and my understanding is EWR is hardly a nice airport. My brother lives about 30 minutes north of BWI and still flys out of Philly half the time because of limited options from BWI and the distance and hassle of going to Dulles isn't worth it.

Correct, I'm speaking about Europe only. I can get a flight out of JFK to Madrid for 700, it's easily 1200 from PHL. Times 4 ppl that adds up quick. EWR is fine as an airport, security can be a zoo but it's not a hole like LGA was pre-reno.

Philly domestic is fine. the crowding around B/C gates while boarding is annoying but other than it's fine, 15-20 mins from Center City can't be beat.

[Mr Saturn64]

It's also really inconvienent for us that Newark and BWI are hooked up to the Amtrak. That probably does a lot for luring people away from PHL, especially with Amtrak fares getting lower and lower.

[BroadandMarket]

Beautification would go along way, both inside and out. PHS had plans to improve the surrounding area a while ago but to my knowledge, none of it happened.

https://billypenn.com/2018/03/09/flo...-surroundings/

https://whyy.org/articles/phs-looks-...ic-landscapes/

The terminals that have been fully renovated look great. The mural on the front parking garage is one of the mistakes Mural Arts ever made. It's too dark and detailed to be seen from so far away. It should be bright and colorful, maybe even just clad the parking garages in screen/living wall.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Just bc you pull up one instance doesn’t make your point true for the whole. I fly PHL to CLT about 3 times a year, and usually the cost out of PHL is more expensive.

So much so that you're gonna travel 2 hours each way to "save" a few dollars? GTFOOH. If you do that you're time must not be very valuable.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

So much so that you're gonna travel 2 hours each way to "save" a few dollars? GTFOOH. If you do that you're time must not be very valuable.

I fly to Charlotte from Newark when I’ve been working in NYC or JC. But if I’m in Philly, I fly to CLT from there. Enough times that I’ve noticed i get cheaper flights out of Newark than Philly.

The only time I drive to DC or NYC is for some international, bc they have more flight options and cheaper prices. Makes a huge difference when you are trying to get upgraded, stretch miles, or reduce layovers. For me, those things are very important. Prime example was Cape Town trip I just did. I drove to DC to get a 14 hour direct that cost 55k miles + $200, then I got upgraded to first class for free in the lay down beds. If I had flown out of Philly, flights would be $1000-$1300 for economy and would have taken 20-24 hours. So that move saved time, money, and allowed me to get sleep to make the most of my trip. Plus, once you drive down there with an upgrade, you get free food in the lounge. Totally worth it.

[FtGreeneNY]

Originally Posted by WilliefromPhilly

PHL's expansion should be modeled after LGA's expansion.

Having watched and endured LGA's "replacement" as it really wasn't much of an expansion per se, and certainly wasn't a renovation, I've often thought that PHL could/should do something similar.

Not coincidentally, progress was made a lot quicker at LGA as a function of dramatically lower passenger activity during the pandemic. And there were definitely periods during which it was excruciatingly painful to get in and out of LGA with people getting out of taxis/Ubers on the GCP and walking to the terminals because the access road(s) were shut down so they could move beams across, etc., but the final result is so worth it.

I also hope they won awards for engineering: it was extraordinary to watch them essentially build a new airport over an existing airport while it was still a functioning airport.

[mja]

I fly to Europe every summer with my family - my wife is European. We don't fly out of PHL anymore because we can fly out of Newark for about half the price, and at 5 tickets, that adds up. The train is dirt cheap and drops you off directly at the airport.

My wife will fly direct out of PHL to Europe for short stretches of time for her job, though.