Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[McBane]

News about the region's grant awards for biking trails (see main philly thread) brought me to this site and this article about the regional rail realignment.. The main argument is that "the advantages made possible with the opening of a downtown tunnel in the 1980s will be passed over if SEPTA officials get their way."

It's a very interesting read; make sure to click on the links embedded within the article.

But be warned, if you buy into the article's opinion, you will come away wondering, why SEPTA is soooo inept at everything they try to do!

[banned]

Schuylkill River Trail – Manayunk Bridge

There goes hope of rail ever returning to the bridge.

[hammersklavier]

Pshaw, once you're across the bridge, you would have parallel competing lines to Ivy Ridge. Turning it into a rail-trail is not that big a deal.

Now, if you ask me, it's the Cynwyd Trail that's the real travesty. SEPTA should be looking to build a park-and-ride where their ROW crosses the Schuylkill Expressway--not turn it into another rail-trail. And think about it for a sec--a park-and-ride right before the most difficult parts of the expressway--don't you think that addition would triple or possibly even quadruple the ridership on the Cynwyd line?

[Phil_North]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Pshaw, once you're across the bridge, you would have parallel competing lines to Ivy Ridge. Turning it into a rail-trail is not that big a deal.

Now, if you ask me, it's the Cynwyd Trail that's the real travesty. SEPTA should be looking to build a park-and-ride where their ROW crosses the Schuylkill Expressway--not turn it into another rail-trail. And think about it for a sec--a park-and-ride right before the most difficult parts of the expressway--don't you think that addition would triple or possibly even quadruple the ridership on the Cynwyd line?

Now that's not a bad idea. I like it. It would be nice if commuters got off of the expressway near Belmont Avenue, parked and took the train. But it seems that most commuters that drive to a rail station drive to the one closest to where they live. Many of the commuters that take 76 into the city who would consider rail travel probably live closer to a station along the R6 Norristown or R5 Paoli/Thorndale lines. It would be hard to convince these individuals to get on 76 and drive past these stations to the R6 Cynwyd line.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Phil_North

Now that's not a bad idea. I like it. It would be nice if commuters got off of the expressway near Belmont Avenue, parked and took the train. But it seems that most commuters that drive to a rail station drive to the one closest to where they live. Many of the commuters that take 76 into the city who would consider rail travel probably live closer to a station along the R6 Norristown or R5 Paoli/Thorndale lines. It would be hard to convince these individuals to get on 76 and drive past these stations to the R6 Cynwyd line.

It's not as simple as that. There are many people who commute down 422 to the Schuylkill, so for them there's no really viable rail station until you get to Conshohocken (and that's why Montco wants that Wyomissing line really bad). And remember just how bad traffic jams on the Schuylkill can get. I've seen rush hours on occasion where the traffic is backed up (seemingly) all the way to the Blue Route; after you've spent half an hour in bumper-to-bumper traffic, knowing it'll only get worse from here, that park-and-ride starts to look mighty attractive.

Also, park and rides do work. There's one at Cornwells Heights (IIRC) that's even clearly signed from I-95, which according to Wikipedia had 1104 boardings as of their most recent sampling (second most, after Trenton's 1290 boardings). I've always that of that as a working experiment--put a park-and-ride next to an expressway and see what happens--and I wonder why SEPTA doesn't seem to have followed up on it at all. Of course they're just INEPTA that way, aren't they?

[Phil_North]

By the Wyomissing line, are you referring to a revised version of the SVM? This would be basically extending the R6 out to Reading, correct?

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Phil_North

By the Wyomissing line, are you referring to a revised version of the SVM? This would be basically extending the R6 out to Reading, correct?

Yes--I'm referring to the revised (greatly simplified) plan to run push-pull diesel service from Norristown TC to Wyomissing. Unlike the ill-fated SVM, this one has no bells and whistles attached--the minimal construction, equipment procurement, and line restoration costs necessary to introduce a viable service.

Originally Posted by SEPTA

This map looks somewhat slapdash in regards to the 15's incorporation. It neglects to inform us that there is a transfer between the 10 and 15 available at Lancaster and Girard, and one between the 15 and Market-Frankford Line at Front and Girard. A minor, easily correctable oversight on SEPTA's part--and doubtless one that will remain until 2030.

[Muji]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

This map looks somewhat slapdash in regards to the 15's incorporation. It neglects to inform us that there is a transfer between the 10 and 15 available at Lancaster and Girard, and one between the 15 and Market-Frankford Line at Front and Girard. A minor, easily correctable oversight on SEPTA's part--and doubtless one that will remain until 2030.

Good catch, I didn't notice that. God forbid SEPTA actually give us thorough and complete signage!

Though in all seriousness, I would recommend emailing SEPTA about this. Ever since Kim Scott Heinle took over customer service, I've been very satisfied with their responsiveness to complaints/suggestions. They've managed to convince me that no suggestion goes completely ignored for long.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Muji

Good catch, I didn't notice that. God forbid SEPTA actually give us thorough and complete signage!

Though in all seriousness, I would recommend emailing SEPTA about this. Ever since Kim Scott Heinle took over customer service, I've been very satisfied with their responsiveness to complaints/suggestions. They've managed to convince me that no suggestion goes completely ignored for long.

Done.

I also complained about the 132's ridiculous new schedule, aired my concerns about the R-line designation plans, and finally suggested the park-and-ride idea for the foot of the Pencoyd Viaduct I've been harping about for years.

[ardecila]

I hope you didn't put that all in one email... even the most helpful customer-relations people will often ignore the laundry lists. It's usually better to send them as several emails.

[Nexis4Jersey]

What about a Streetcar system in Center City and the South Neighborhoods is there any talk on that?

[PhillyRising]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

It's not as simple as that. There are many people who commute down 422 to the Schuylkill, so for them there's no really viable rail station until you get to Conshohocken (and that's why Montco wants that Wyomissing line really bad). And remember just how bad traffic jams on the Schuylkill can get. I've seen rush hours on occasion where the traffic is backed up (seemingly) all the way to the Blue Route; after you've spent half an hour in bumper-to-bumper traffic, knowing it'll only get worse from here, that park-and-ride starts to look mighty attractive.

Actually....those coming down 422 are quite close to R5 rail stations in Devon and Stratford once they get to the 202/76 interchange.

The problem with most SEPTA rail stations is that they don't have enough parking spaces. That is what hinders people from taking the train who aren't doing so already.

They finished the parking lot expansion here in Exton and it's made a world of a difference for the people using the station during the weekdays. If you want an example of SEPTA stupidity....come to Exton. SEPTA does not run the very late trains on Friday and Saturday past Malvern. Malvern is a small station that is hard to find to find from 202 if you don't know the area. The parking is limited as well. The late train service should end at Exton. The station sits literally next to the 30 bypass at the rte 100 interchange. It can be reached by a number of people in this area within minutes. SEPTA could market this service to people who want to go to the city but don't want to drive and pay the outrageous parking fees. Exton is the next station on the line from Malvern. It's not like it would take that much more time or money to extend the late night service one more stop.

[volguus zildrohar]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

What about a Streetcar system in Center City and the South Neighborhoods is there any talk on that?

There used to be an extensive streetcar networks thorugh those neighborhoodsd and other across the city. As you no doubt are aware, National City Lines saw to that decades ago. Streetcars would have very little benefit over what exists now if any. Philadelphia streets are not generous enough to allow for dedicated ROW's in those areas and there is already a very tight, concise bus network. There are places that would benefit from the expansion of rail transit, especially in those two areas, but streetcars wouldn't do it.

[hammersklavier]

There are, however, a few streets wide enough to locate LRV in the medians. Oregon, Washington, Lehigh, Erie, for example. A network designed to take advantage of the wider avenues and minimize the distance traversed on the narrower streets might still be successful--if ROW is separated from the traveling ways and grade crossings are reduced (but not eliminated, note).

And the issue of wide enough N-S streets west of Broad for a good loop remains.

[volguus zildrohar]

Hammer, that part - finding streets west of Broad, can be thoroughly frustrating. Even west of the river you more often get wide sections of streets instead of wide streets altogether. I think the current pattern of running northbound routes on northbound streets and southbound the same works but for light rail, traffic patterns would have to be altered as well as parking (about as fundamental and contentious an issue as there is in this city. Lest we forget Carol Campbell and how she held up the return of The 15 trolley for it).

Right off the top of my head, parts of 38th, 49th, 52nd, 57th, 60th & 63rd Streets fit the bill. Between Broad and The Schuylkill, however, it's a tighter toss.

[hammersklavier]

Well, 63rd is sorta kinda the last street heading west before you hit Cobbs Creek...

I know there was a proposal to use some of the old trolley tracks in West Philly (that aren't in use) as a circulator. I'm thinking more of a pair of circulators east of the Schuylkill--one between Lehigh and Washington and the other between Girard and Oregon, with the part where the two overlap (between Girard and Washington) used as a third loop. Parts of 11th are wide enough for LRV ROW--particlarly at the Hawthorne-Bella Vista border--but that's not good enough; American Street north of Girard is also quite wide; so Part 1 would be (from Broad and Lehigh) Lehigh-American-Girard-Frankford-Delaware-Washington- ...but then where?

And south of Washington has the same problem since AFAIK the only streets wide enough for LRV on the eastern side--Delaware and Weccacoe--are too far away from the residential catchments they need. Another issue is the standard-gauge switching line in Delaware, so that's completely out of the question.

The best bet, it seems, would be to use street pairings wisely. Front-Second from Washington to Oregon; 21st-22nd from Oregon all the way up to Lehigh (with the appropriate junctures at Washington and Girard, of course); traffic patterns along Girard between the College and Broad can be altered so as to redirect along Poplar, thus allowing the trolley/LRV to "eat" a lane there and the small section of relatively slow running through the Girard Avenue business district can be tolerated so long as the running speeds can be optimized elsewhere.

Just thinking about how it can be done.

EDIT: A spur--Washington-Grays Ferry-34th-University-Civic Center-33rd-Chestnut-Schuylkill-Market-34th-Civic Center (University Loop) would also allow for excellent connections between the LRV system and the rest of the transit network; vaulting the Powelton Yards to 34th (past the Zoo)-Girard-33rd-Lehigh may also be a good option--especially since the LRV loop is intended to be an outer feeder network.

[Phil_North]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Well, 63rd is sorta kinda the last street heading west before you hit Cobbs Creek...

I know there was a proposal to use some of the old trolley tracks in West Philly (that aren't in use) as a circulator. I'm thinking more of a pair of circulators east of the Schuylkill--one between Lehigh and Washington and the other between Girard and Oregon, with the part where the two overlap (between Girard and Washington) used as a third loop. Parts of 11th are wide enough for LRV ROW--particlarly at the Hawthorne-Bella Vista border--but that's not good enough; American Street north of Girard is also quite wide; so Part 1 would be (from Broad and Lehigh) Lehigh-American-Girard-Frankford-Delaware-Washington- ...but then where?

And south of Washington has the same problem since AFAIK the only streets wide enough for LRV on the eastern side--Delaware and Weccacoe--are too far away from the residential catchments they need. Another issue is the standard-gauge switching line in Delaware, so that's completely out of the question.

The best bet, it seems, would be to use street pairings wisely. Front-Second from Washington to Oregon; 21st-22nd from Oregon all the way up to Lehigh (with the appropriate junctures at Washington and Girard, of course); traffic patterns along Girard between the College and Broad can be altered so as to redirect along Poplar, thus allowing the trolley/LRV to "eat" a lane there and the small section of relatively slow running through the Girard Avenue business district can be tolerated so long as the running speeds can be optimized elsewhere.

Just thinking about how it can be done.

EDIT: A spur--Washington-Grays Ferry-34th-University-Civic Center-33rd-Chestnut-Schuylkill-Market-34th-Civic Center (University Loop) would also allow for excellent connections between the LRV system and the rest of the transit network; vaulting the Powelton Yards to 34th (past the Zoo)-Girard-33rd-Lehigh may also be a good option--especially since the LRV loop is intended to be an outer feeder network.

I absolutely love the ideas. Especially those here in the transportation forum. One note, Lehigh avenue is much narrower west of Germantown avenue. A right of way light rail would be very tight along Lehigh between Germantown and 33rd street. But I would still love to see it happen. It runs through a heavily populated area that relies heavily on public transportation. A Septa manager related to me that the 33 bus (which runs from Allegheny Ave to Center City via 19th, 20th, and 22nd streets) is the second most ridden bus in the city behind West Philly's 52 bus. These residents would love a faster way to get o Center City. A loop, whether it be light rail or some other mode would definitely be a plus.

I always thought American Street could be used for something more. It seems to large and empty and seems to be asking for a rail line running north and south.

[volguus zildrohar]

^I was always under the impression that the 23 was the most heavily used bus line in the city and has been for some time.

[hammersklavier]

American Street was originally the route by which the North Penn Railroad approached Philadelphia, so naturally industry developed along it, and when the Reading consolidated its passenger operations in the Reading Terminal, the sole track remaining in the middle of the street was used to switch the spurs there. It's much like Washington in that regard--except Washington, being a major street as well, was much, much busier.


http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...c886d51c7&z=13

One issue to note on that map is that 25th Street, while I'm pretty sure it's the widest street of its kind in South Philly, is covered by the elevated freight railroad I've thought for some time can be used for rapid transit as well. Would it be most beneficial to consolidate the light-rail and heavy-rail operations in that part of South Philly? Or to use a one-way pairing around 20th/21st?

Also, is it worth it to go out of the way to get to 30th Street, especially when you pass the 34th Street station? Or is 30th Street such a major transit hub, and the developments around there, so important that it is unquestionably necessary in normal operations to go there? And if it is, wouldn't installing flex-tracks along the unserviced segment of 33rd/34th still be a good idea? (Also in that regard: installing a track from 36th to 33rd/34th so that trains running the 40th Street Cutoff can access the loop?)

[Nexis4Jersey]

I like that plan i think Philly needs more streetcars , to touch the neighborhoods that are growing faster and need a bit of a boost. But why not throw a line down 611? Traffic wise its kinda jammed , but hey , replace the bus lines with a streetcar line and offer system that is attractive to tourists. And the subway below can be used for the fastest commute up & down 611. How come PATCO was never extended to 30th Street Station?