PHILADELPHIA-CAMDEN-WILMINGTON-ATLANTIC CITY-READING | Metro Development Thread

[soynog]

Damn it, try this link and click the plus sign 3 times:http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...8,0.042915&t=k

[Joey D]

Anxiously awaiting the crane, MGlan. I had almost forgotten the Residences was once so small.

So, is Kevin Kelley related to Gerry Kelley? I know there are lots of Irishmen in Wilmington, but I would figure they are related being both politically inclined.

[soynog]

Gerry's last name only has one "E".

So where is the parking garage going versus the 2nd tower at Christina Landing? The renderings on their web site, http://www.christinalanding.net/ , don't seem consistent unless my perspecive is off.

[Joey D]

^Aah. Well, that would explain it

[mglan80]

I generally like Kelley, but he's pretty simple minded on some issues; this one in particular. Requiring a developer or potential developer to renovate homes in a neighboring neighborhood is exactly the kind of special interest nonsense that keeps projects like this away from the city. What exactly is Kelley asking for? Does he want BPG to just pick people's homes at random and do a complete renovation for free? If they did buy up a few of the vacant homes and renovate or put up some new units on a few of the vacant lots, should these be sold at a stiff discount because it benefits the community? They should suck it up and take a loss on a home because they want to build near a neighborhood where most people make less than their potential buyers? That is not what a public company is there to do. BPG gives a lot money to the non-profit groups in the city that do build homes for the working poor, and that's acceptable.

The problem with people like Kelley is that he wants it both ways: a safe and stable neighborhood with well-kept homes for working people, but he doesn't want gentrification, which is necessary for a safe and stable neighborhood with well-kept homes. When a project like Justison Landing comes along, people like Kelley talk about how their neighborhood is being threatened with becoming the next Trolley Square where working people can't afford to live. Well, I'm sure the people that own their homes in Browntown are glad to have a new highend project close to their neighborhood because that spill over of more affluenent people may just happen and improve the quality of the neighborhood. Those that rent will be priced out, but that happens to everyone, not just the poor. If my building went condo and I had to buy my unit for $250,000, I'd have to move. I wouldn't cry about it to my council woman, I realize that the owner wants to make his money and I need to find another place to live. That's business.

Sorry to ramble.

Soynog: Welcome to the thread, it's nice to have some people to discuss this stuff with. I couldn't agree with you more about the site of the new Public Works yard for the City. The DuPont site is a horrible choice. It's decisions like that the should anger a neighborhood, not new construction. The City should have put it out by the port or the treatment plant. The parking garage will go on the river side of the condo tower, between the apartment tower and Market Street. Here:

[Kitchen Guy]

Mglan80,

that wasn't rambling, that was well reasoned.

BP's Justisons Landing is going to be a big boost to Browntown.

the shops will have more customers and people who come to look at JL but can't afford it will look over at Browntown and think "wow I can get a fixer-upper here for a song and be next to this cool new neighborhood".

Also, I got the impression (maybe wrong) that the site of the maintenance yard was temporary, until the next big development deal comes along.

[Kitchen Guy]

the townhouses at CL look Dutch to me. I don't know why, since I have never been to Holland.

[Kitchen Guy]

I think that the city maintenance/truck yard and the septa depot should be moved to higher ground. (remember New Orleans)

Perhaps the old Slocum window plant on the east side or out near 23rd and Get Shot (N Market).

[mglan80]

Originally Posted by Kitchen Guy

the townhouses at CL look Dutch to me. I don't know why, since I have never been to Holland.

Well, they do have the gable end out pointed out to the street like old Dutch row homes.

[Kitchen Guy]

Mglan80

I met With the Preservation Initiatives folks, nice people, big plans for your neighborhood. I hope the city gets some parking built down there soon.

Interesting appartment layouts for that tan and green bldg (#300?)

[greggpow]

Kitchen Guy-

What was the area you referenced in the above post? What are the apartments you mentioned?

G

[greggpow]

Drove by the Justison Landing site over the weekend. The size of the lot really is much bigger than I realized...it's the entire space between AAA and Kahuna. The Riverfront units should have great city skyline views.

Also think the retail aspect is great. Hope they put at least a small grocery store in there somewhere, the area really needs one.

G

[mglan80]

Originally Posted by Kitchen Guy

Mglan80

I met With the Preservation Initiatives folks, nice people, big plans for your neighborhood. I hope the city gets some parking built down there soon.

Interesting appartment layouts for that tan and green bldg (#300?)

They are pretty interesting, although I've only seen the floor plans. No renderings or actual materials list. Don is good guy; he always has ideas and vision. Don't worry about the parking (except the price!), the garage is still going to be built. Since the closing was pushed back into November, EDiS decided to wait until early spring before starting work. The steel, which was in Oklahoma for five years, was delivered to Wilmington in November. The garage will take at least a year to build though.

Originally Posted by greggpow

What was the area you referenced in the above post? What are the apartments you mentioned?

Preservation Initiatives is redeveloping four buildings in the 300 block of Market Street into 15 apartment condominiums. The yellow, green, and grey buildings here:

[soynog]

I think like a Trader Joe's or similar small grocery store would do well down there. (And save me the drive up 202.)

Does BPG have any sketches yet of what the project will look like? They must have some ideas if they're able to give square feet for commercial and retail and the number of residential units.

[Kitchen Guy]

soynog

here are some numbers for Justisons landing

12 acres is slightly less than 522,000sf
now for the assumptions:
1) 50% lot coverage net after roads, sidewalks and green stuff
2) 1,500sf per condo

700 condos x 1500 = 1,050,000sf (assumed)
offices per the NJ = 300,000sf (reported)
retail = 75,000sf (reported)

1,425,000sf / 261,000sf bldg foot print gives us 5.5 storys plus parking levels.

Now that's just math and opinion, I have no inside information. (yet)

[Kitchen Guy]

"700 new units"

This can't be good news to the speculators who are sitting on Christina Landing townhouses or who were expecting to flip their tower condo's for big bucks.

[mglan80]

Originally Posted by Kitchen Guy

This can't be good news to the speculators who are sitting on Christina Landing townhouses or who were expecting to flip their tower condo's for big bucks.

Hell with 'em. They bloat the market for buyers and make money without producing anything.

The market is generally pretty confident in the Wilmington market. Don't forget Brian O'Neill is still looking at 500 or so units over by Bancroft Mill in the Highlands.

Oh, and the tower crane is being erected over at Christina Landing.

[greggpow]

I think Justison Landing is actually a good thing for Christina Landing. The more people we get down on the river, and the more retail, the more demand there will be to live down here.

I don't look at it as there are just 500 people out "there" who want to live on the river and if you build more at Justison Landing it will be taking away from Christina Landing. I think what's going to happen is that this new larger development is really going to tip us into that "critical mass" zone where city living takes on a completely different feel and attracts much more demand then there currently is.

Remember too, Justison Landing won't be livable for close to 2 years, and the River Tower at least a year. The only place to buy and live for the next year are the Townhouses at CL, so I think they'll do fine, resale wise (as long as sellers are realistic with asking prices).

G

[mglan80]

^That's exactly right. It's an example of the much over used phase, "critical mass."

BPG would not be gambling hundreds of millions of dollars on a large project like this just to chase the same buyers who might be looking at their own project across the river.

It's strange to imagine how much has changed in just the three years I've lived in town now. There was no AAA, no Barclays headquarters under construction, no Christina Landing, and the Residences at Rodney Square were just opening, and the Ships Tavern Mews was only partially complete. Wow, three more years like that and we'll have something.

[Kitchen Guy]

hurah for the crane!

O'neill has a 1000 units planned for the Bancroft mill site. the buildings were more contaminated than first believed, which has raised his land cost and makes it unlikley he will downsize the number of units.

look for at least a year of clean-up and demolition at the site before construction begins.

the first units will probably deliver around june 2008.

check out the O'Neill Properties website, they have an amazing number of projects planned for the Greater Philly region!