Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[Prestige Worldwide]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

The video doesn't answer the question, as others have noted, but thank you for the 10 seconds.

The crossings of the arterials for this section will likely be at-grade to avoid costly grade separations. Wish there was a budget for a bunch of grade separations.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by Prestige Worldwide

The crossings of the arterials for this section will likely be at-grade to avoid costly grade separations. Wish there was a budget for a bunch of grade separations.

Well at least it will be able to move quickly out to 47th Ave before to transitions from the median to the North side. Once it's there, it'll have to move quite a bit slower.

[combusean]

This project looks like it's been delayed. They're a year late on a final recommendation as far as I can tell and even if they had that, it doesn't have the preliminary engineering done where these questions would be answered for certain.

That all being said, the most logical thing I see is an underpass under the Avenues on that side.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by combusean

This project looks like it's been delayed. They're a year late on a final recommendation as far as I can tell and even if they had that, it doesn't have the preliminary engineering done where these questions would be answered for certain.

That all being said, the most logical thing I see is an underpass under the Avenues on that side.

If an extension to the Maricopa County transportation tax is not passed in 2024, it probably won't happen at all. I believe the I-10 West project assumes some funding from that source. That won't break my heart. I think the I-10 west route is a misuse of light rail for a job better done by commuter rail or bus rapid transit. I'd be okay if light rail went only to the Capitol before looping back toward downtown. Nevertheless, the county tax extension is needed for any number of more worthwhile projects, so I hope something is worked out for the 2024 ballot.

[combusean]

I don't think the two are really comparable. Commuter rail will never serve, eg, Desert Sky, and at this rate it'll never happen at all. Even if it did, a commuter rail with bidrectional light rail frequency is pretty much unheard of.

BRT would be the wrong mode here too as a transfer would be inevitable and nobody seems to really be pushing for it.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by combusean

I don't think the two are really comparable. Commuter rail will never serve, eg, Desert Sky, and at this rate it'll never happen at all. Even if it did, a commuter rail with bidrectional light rail frequency is pretty much unheard of.

BRT would be the wrong mode here too as a transfer would be inevitable and nobody seems to really be pushing for it.

I'd be in favor of serving Desert Sky via light rail on Thomas Road, not 1-10. My concern about the proposed 1-10 extension is that it won't have enough stations within walking distance of transit dependent Maryvale residents and that it will primarily serve park-and-ride commuters from the suburbs, even though Phoenix residents will pay the greatest share of its construction and operating costs.

In terms of service hours and frequency, I've read quite a few proposals from other cities to re-imagine their commuter rail systems as regional rail in light of the pandemic's impact of work patterns. The idea is to move away from traditional schedules with service heavily clustered during the morning and evening rush hours and instead offer service throughout the day.

When Valley Metro was studying BRT as a possible alternative mode for I-10, I remember asking a staff member if the plan was to run BRT all the way to downtown, or if a transfer to light rail would be required at the Capitol. The reply was that the former scenario was what they envisioned. It's possible one reason for choosing light rail over BRT on I-10 was to avoid the redundancy that would happen with two modes between the Capitol and downtown.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

won't have enough stations within walking distance of transit dependent Maryvale residents and that it will primarily serve park-and-ride commuters from the suburbs

This is why the whole damn thing is a disaster of a non-starter for me. It's a gift to the rich to add some convenience to their lives while completely ignoring the poor population in the densest neighborhood in the city; people who need to get to grocery stores, doctors, work, etc.

The priorities are in the wrong place.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

This is why the whole damn thing is a disaster of a non-starter for me. It's a gift to the rich to add some convenience to their lives while completely ignoring the poor population in the densest neighborhood in the city; people who need to get to grocery stores, doctors, work, etc.

The priorities are in the wrong place.

The west LR expansion needs to be one thing or another: a way for commuters to get downtown rapidly or a slower moving train with plenty of stops along a normal street like Thomas. And since it doesn't sound like it's going to be the latter, it might as well be the former.

You can't afford to connect all low income neighborhoods with rail; frankly the bus service could be improved at a fraction of the cost and actually touch all the roads, not just 1 lucky winner, which would be the folks living within a quarter mile of the LR.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

The west LR expansion needs to be one thing or another:

That's my point. They chose the wrong option. Shit or get off the pot. Pardon my choice of words but this kind of stuff really irritates me, it's red state politics.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

That's my point. They chose the wrong option. Shit or get off the pot. Pardon my choice of words but this kind of stuff really irritates me, it's red state politics.

What's infuriating about your statement is that Salt Lake City has a very well built LRT system along with streetcar, BRT AND commuter rail. Surely Utah is much more red than Arizona. So why are they getting it right and yet, we can't?

Frustrating

[azsunsurfer]

Originally Posted by CrestedSaguaro

What's infuriating about your statement is that Salt Lake City has a very well built LRT system along with streetcar, BRT AND commuter rail. Surely Utah is much more red than Arizona. So why are they getting it right and yet, we can't?

Frustrating

Their governor uses preferred pronouns and they also elected Mitt Romney, Utah is a red state in name only lol

[combusean]

Thomas isn't as clearcut as it looks. There's not a lot of space on that road and problems bridging the railroad tracks.

And there's no done deal that it's going to stop at lights in the I-10 alignment. Even if it did it'd only cross a signal once a mile and could travel at its 55 MPH maximum speed unlike 35 on a surface street with lots of lights.

A streetcar on thomas would probably be better and cheaper and not need so much tearing up the streets which would harm the people it's trying to serve.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by combusean

Thomas isn't as clearcut as it looks. There's not a lot of space on that road and problems bridging the railroad tracks.

Crossing over the Grand Avenue freight tracks via Thomas would indeed be a challenge. Light rail would have to use a long, high bridge to pass over Grand Avenue, 27th Avenue, and the freight tracks because all three of those are close to one another.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by combusean

Thomas isn't as clearcut as it looks. There's not a lot of space on that road and problems bridging the railroad tracks.

And there's no done deal that it's going to stop at lights in the I-10 alignment. Even if it did it'd only cross a signal once a mile and could travel at its 55 MPH maximum speed unlike 35 on a surface street with lots of lights.

A streetcar on thomas would probably be better and cheaper and not need so much tearing up the streets which would harm the people it's trying to serve.

I kind of had the thought that maybe streetcar would work on Camelback to GCU. And if the day ever comes and Glendale gets out of yesterday and gets on board, a conversion could be done to full LRT.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

That's my point. They chose the wrong option. Shit or get off the pot. Pardon my choice of words but this kind of stuff really irritates me, it's red state politics.

Lol you think red state politicians are influencing the LR? Most of them don't want it at all or are even paying much attention to the details. I don't see them hanging out at MAG planning meetings influencing where the tracks go.

I would think LR advocates would want at least one high speed option driving traffic to downtown to increase daily ridership. I'm pretty sure at last count ridership is still struggling post covid.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

Lol you think red state politicians are influencing the LR? Most of them don't want it at all or are even paying much attention to the details. I don't see them hanging out at MAG planning meetings influencing where the tracks go.

I would think LR advocates would want at least one high speed option driving traffic to downtown to increase daily ridership. I'm pretty sure at last count ridership is still struggling post covid.

In Utah, the Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has been highly supportive of rail transit, just as it has been locally in Mesa. That factor makes a different in "red state" politics, carving out an exception to the hostility towards public transit that has taken hold among many other Republican elected officials.

I'm skeptical that a high speed option would increase ridership all that much. Since stations along I-10 would not be within walking distance of those who rely on transit the most, ridership would be high only during rush hour and special events. There wouldn't be the same steady level of baseline ridership throughout the week that characterizes the current light rail line.

I'm in favor of high-speed routes for commuters, but those needs are better served by commuter rail or express buses. Light rail is a mode designed more for short trips in denser portions of central cities and their inner rings of suburbs. Transit ridership in Phoenix took a big hit during the worst of COVID, but not nearly as much as in many other cities. I'm confident it will continue to recover with or without the I-10 extension.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

Lol you think red state politicians are influencing the LR?

Absolutely. Their constituents don't want them giving "hand outs" to the poor or needy but will vote for something if it benefits them directly. Supporting billions in spending in a poor area would be a death-knell for a lot of republicans careers, so they support something that makes their colleagues somewhat satisfied and at the same time doesn't alienate their voters. Politics is just a popularity contest.

If you want to continue that discussion I think we should do it over PM or in the general thread.

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

Absolutely. Their constituents don't want them giving "hand outs" to the poor or needy but will vote for something if it benefits them directly. Supporting billions in spending in a poor area would be a death-knell for a lot of republicans careers, so they support something that makes their colleagues somewhat satisfied and at the same time doesn't alienate their voters. Politics is just a popularity contest.

If you want to continue that discussion I think we should do it over PM or in the general thread.

This site is about construction not politics! Please spare us your "knowledge" errr "opinion" of the latter and stick to commenting about construction projects. We hear enough happy horse_ _ _ _ when we watch the news.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

This site is about construction not politics! Please spare us your "knowledge" errr "opinion" of the latter and stick to commenting about construction projects. We hear enough happy horse_ _ _ _ when we watch the news.

This discussion should probably be transplanted to the Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments thread. Some politics will always be a factor there because any transportation measures requiring voter approval or government funding will inevitably have a political aspect.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

This site is about construction not politics! Please spare us your "knowledge" errr "opinion" of the latter and stick to commenting about construction projects. We hear enough happy horse_ _ _ _ when we watch the news.

Do you think the last sentence of my post might signify I'm aware of people's lack of desire to have a political discussion?

And if you're going to pretend politics doesn't play a significant role in the light rail discussion you're just being disingenuous.