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  #561  
Old Posted May 14, 2022, 7:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
I'm pretty sure this: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bo...!4d-71.0588801 or this: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bo...!4d-71.0588801 or this: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bo...!4d-71.0588801 or this: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bo...!4d-71.0588801 or this: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bo...!4d-71.0588801 didn't exist three centuries ago.

Boston does have old towns that are now part of its urban area but it also has modern ultra-low sprawl. I don't understand this urge to make looking Boston perfect while bashing Atlanta over the same sins. Georgia is also an old state and I'm pretty sure Atlanta sprawls also has engulfed old villages, old farms as well.




All those old towns were already all built up by 17th century? They are linked together precisely by modern ultra-low density sprawl.

If Boston were located anywhere in the world aside the US east of Mississippi, its urbanized footprint would 1/3 of the current size.
absolutely - many of the suburbs within the sprawl of atlanta are historic small towns with their own downtowns - marietta, roswell, decatur, (which is older than atlanta) alpharetta, stone mountain, among many others. some of the nodes around boston are more substantial, like worcester but it's also an hour out. gainesville and athens are much bigger small cities both located in atl's CSA and not that much further out than worcester is from boston. would be interested to see the total number of ppl living in the denser census tracts around these old towns vs the total living in typical atl-type subdivisions. there doesn't seem to be much in-between.
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  #562  
Old Posted May 14, 2022, 7:57 PM
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many of the suburbs within the sprawl of atlanta are historic small towns with their own downtowns - marietta, roswell, decatur, (which is older than atlanta) alpharetta, stone mountain
I did not know this. Not like Houston then...
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  #563  
Old Posted May 14, 2022, 8:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
I did not know this. Not like Houston then...
I didn’t know either, but I imagined so as Georgia is very old and for most part of 19th century it was as populated as Massachusetts, so people had to live somewhere.
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  #564  
Old Posted May 14, 2022, 8:02 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Boston's isn't... real "sprawl". The towns were already there. They were settled 100s of years ago. Atlanta's suburbs didn't exist 70 years ago.

We need better language to differentiate what Boston is from what Atlanta is.
All the towns around Atlanta were there before the sprawl really got turned up as well. Atlanta is not as old as Boston, but it's pretty established with the other small cities and towns around it. Like someone mentioned before, Georgia was one of the 13 original colonies as well as Massachusetts.

The Southeast is more rural and has more of its urban areas being newer low density sprawl than the Northeast, nobody is arguing against that. But it does appear that even the areas outside of the small old towns in Boston's metro are as low density as those around Atlanta. Urban sprawl is still urban sprawl, whether it existed 400 years ago or was built within the last 70 years.


Either way, instead of arguing over BS semantics, this would be a good opportunity to talk about how Boston and other NE cities can continue to grow through building in the major cities as well as small towns in the periphery, rather than entertaining any form of large scale urban sprawl. Atlanta and the rest of the Sunbelt would benefit from following this as well.
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  #565  
Old Posted May 14, 2022, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jd3189 View Post

Either way, instead of arguing over BS semantics, this would be a good opportunity to talk about how Boston and other NE cities can continue to grow through building in the major cities as well as small towns in the periphery, rather than entertaining any form of large scale urban sprawl. Atlanta and the rest of the Sunbelt would benefit from following this as well.
That’s a good point. When the Census Bureau release their 2020 UA data late this year, for the first ever we’ll probably see an increase in density in several US urban areas, probably in Boston as well.

So yes, it would be even more interesting to discuss ways on how Boston (or Atlanta) could increase density all over its urban area than insisting there’s no sprawl there. The good thing is they’re apparently doing so as central areas are growing faster than the exurban belt.
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  #566  
Old Posted May 14, 2022, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
I didn’t know either, but I imagined so as Georgia is very old and for most part of 19th century it was as populated as Massachusetts, so people had to live somewhere.
It makes sense, it was around before the Civil War and GA itself was founded as a colony. Atlanta seems so 'new' compared to Boston though.
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  #567  
Old Posted May 14, 2022, 8:37 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I'm talking about Boston from the perspective of America. Not Boston from the perspective of the U.K.
This is the spectrum:
U.K. cities ------------ Boston -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Atlanta
There probably is a degree of difference in the form of sprawl between Boston and Atlanta; Boston has older regional centres and a more extensive commuter rail network and that tends to concentrate density. Yet the urban form of Boston is still far closer to Atlanta than what you’d find in the UK, because of seven decades of incredibly restrictive planning regulations. It’s why you can travel far shorter distances from the centre of British cities and end up in a completely rural landscape.
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  #568  
Old Posted May 15, 2022, 8:38 PM
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[QUOTE=JManc;9625278]It makes sense, it was around before the Civil War and GA itself was founded as a colony. Atlanta seems so 'new' compared to Boston though.[/QUO

In 1860 Massachusetts had 1.3 million. In 1860 Georgia had a population of just around 1,000,000 spread across a land area more than FIVE times the size of Massachusetts. In 1860 Georgia's economy was overwhelmingly agrarian and plantation based. Small towns in Georgia were usually little more than a crossroads with a few stores or perhaps a mill operation. This includes most of the small towns that are now part of the sprawling Atlanta metro. in 1860 Atlanta had a population of 9,500 people. Boston had a population of 177,000 in 1860. Comparing Boston and Atlanta development patterns is an interesting topic, but there are very significant differences that can't be overlooked.
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  #569  
Old Posted May 15, 2022, 10:47 PM
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For example, this is the edge of London -the exurbs 21 miles from the centre. It's density is 6,090 per sq mile inc large tracts of countryside.







Likewise Woking (23 miles) - 5,500 per sq mile





Knaphill - 27 miles -8,000 per sq mile



Guildford (33 miles) is about 13,000 per sq mile






Slough - (25 miles), 13,000 per sq mile



Redhill (21 miles) 8,300 per sq mile




Last edited by muppet; May 16, 2022 at 6:08 AM.
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  #570  
Old Posted May 16, 2022, 1:43 PM
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Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post

In 1860 Massachusetts had 1.3 million. In 1860 Georgia had a population of just around 1,000,000 spread across a land area more than FIVE times the size of Massachusetts. In 1860 Georgia's economy was overwhelmingly agrarian and plantation based. Small towns in Georgia were usually little more than a crossroads with a few stores or perhaps a mill operation. This includes most of the small towns that are now part of the sprawling Atlanta metro. in 1860 Atlanta had a population of 9,500 people. Boston had a population of 177,000 in 1860. Comparing Boston and Atlanta development patterns is an interesting topic, but there are very significant differences that can't be overlooked.
Atlanta also wasn't the largest city in Georgia in the 1860s. If Savannah had maintained its status as the primary city of Georgia then maybe it would look like Boston. Atlanta was effectively a clean slate.
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  #571  
Old Posted May 16, 2022, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Atlanta also wasn't the largest city in Georgia in the 1860s. If Savannah had maintained its status as the primary city of Georgia then maybe it would look like Boston. Atlanta was effectively a clean slate.
yep, charleston and savannah were the boston and NYC of the southeast way back in the day, but they lost their thunder to atlanta and charlotte in the 20th century.

imagine if boston and NYC were relatively small little mid-sized metro areas today and syracuse and burlington each had many millions of people instead.
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  #572  
Old Posted May 16, 2022, 6:48 PM
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yep, charleston and savannah were the boston and NYC of the southeast way back in the day, but they lost their thunder to atlanta and charlotte in the 20th century.

imagine if boston and NYC were relatively small little mid-sized metro areas today and syracuse and burlington each had many millions of people instead.
Savannah had 22,000 population in 1860, a little more than twice the size of Atlanta. Charleston had a little over 40,000 in the city. Comparisons with NY and Boston are not really on the mark. The Old South was not urbanized. New Orleans was the only city in the South with more than 100,000 residents at the time of the Civil War
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  #573  
Old Posted May 16, 2022, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post
Savannah had 22,000 population in 1860, a little more than twice the size of Atlanta. Charleston had a little over 40,000 in the city. Comparisons with NY and Boston are not really on the mark. The Old South was not urbanized. New Orleans was the only city in the South with more than 100,000 residents at the time of the Civil War
Charleston was a top 10 city in the U.S. pre-Civil War. Savannah was also on the larger side for a city in that era. Both were also capitals. So, to me at least, it's not hard to see a scenario where they become large cities.
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  #574  
Old Posted May 16, 2022, 8:06 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Charleston was a top 10 city in the U.S. pre-Civil War. Savannah was also on the larger side for a city in that era. Both were also capitals. So, to me at least, it's not hard to see a scenario where they become large cities.
Charleston dropped off the top 10 list after 1840. Interesting that Charleston's population remained fairly stagnant during the first half of the 19th Century. It kind of ran out of steam, especially in comparison to the cities in the Northeast which were exploding with population growth. Charleston and Savannah are beautiful little cities, but they were consigned to a lesser tier once the railroads started to develop. New Orleans benefited from being at the bottom of the Mississippi River, and it also developed as a major rail hub. Charleston and Savannah did not have that kind of dynamic connection with the interior of their region. Came across this list of largest southern cities (large towns for the most part) in 1860. https://brettcalleroartist.com/2012/...federacy-1860/

Last edited by austlar1; May 16, 2022 at 8:18 PM.
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  #575  
Old Posted May 16, 2022, 8:11 PM
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Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post
Charleston dropped off the top 10 list after 1840. Interesting that Charleston's population remained fairly stagnant during the first half of the 19th Century. It kind of ran out of steam, especially in comparison to the cities in the Northeast which were exploding with population growth. Charleston and Savannah are beautiful little cities, but they were consigned to a lesser tier once the railroads started to develop. New Orleans benefited from being at the bottom of the Mississippi River, and it also developed as a major rail hub. Charleston and Savannah did not have that kind of dynamic connection with the interior of their region.
It was because of the South wouldn't let go of slavery. The South was slow to industrialize, as the North was doing by the 1840s, because they were too tied to an agrarian economy and slavery.
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  #576  
Old Posted May 16, 2022, 8:44 PM
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I did not know this. Not like Houston then...
Yes, many of these downtowns have nice public parks, restaurants, shops, libraries, cafes, a city hall, and are all walkable. Gwinnett County has historic Norcross, downtown Duluth, downtown Suwanee (my favorite), downtown Sugar Hill, downtown Lawrenceville, Lilburn. Suwanee and Duluth's downtowns are close to numerous Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, and Indian stores/restaurants/cafes. Buford is in the process of building a huge downtown under construction.

Outside of Gwinnett, you have downtown Alpharetta (with Avalon nearby), Johns Creek is currently starting the process of building their own downtown, downtown Decatur (old video a lot more has been built up here), downtown Marietta, Vinings, Sandy Springs 1, and Sandy Springs near the new State Farm buildings and marta where a lot of new condos are going up, downtown Woodstock, maybe you can consider The Battery as a Cumberland downtown.

There are other downtowns both historic and that are under development that I didn't include here in Atlanta's core metro area.
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  #577  
Old Posted May 16, 2022, 9:01 PM
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Yeah, if the South was able to get its head out of its ass, abolish slavery ( or at least be less dependent on it and its post Civil War reincarnation, sharecropping) and developed its industry early on, things would be way different. Places like Savannah, Charleston, and New Orleans would have been bigger and more important. I would also say that the inland cities like Atlanta and Charlotte would still be important as railroad hubs, being more like their analogs like Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, and other Midwestern cities.
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  #578  
Old Posted May 17, 2022, 10:15 AM
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For example, this is the edge of London -the exurbs 21 miles from the centre. It's density is 6,090 per sq mile inc large tracts of countryside.
Exurbs are really low density sprawl/rural environments; the Surrey towns/outer reaches of London’s urban realm that you reference would fall outside of their higher densities. In the UK exurb-like population densities are only found in heavily protected areas (e.g. Green Belt, National Parks, etc…) or incredibly rural and remote parts of the country.

In England & Wales, just 6.8% of the population reside in such low density areas. 78.6% of the population reside in areas where the population density is above that of the Boston urban area. The Green Belt and extensive planning regulations have concentrated development and restricted the options for sprawl. Hence why you have a far clearer division between urban and rural in the UK.
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  #579  
Old Posted May 21, 2022, 6:00 PM
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As the late 1980's and early 1990's marked the period where the first countries started to see their population decline (all of them on Eastern Europe), I compiled the population evolution for the past 30 years. The year of reference might vary (1988-1991) from country to country. The list brings all countries that are already declining or about to:

LATVIA -------------- -29.0% ----- 1,893,223 ----- 2,666,567

BULGARIA ------------ -27.4% ----- 6,520,314 ----- 8,981,446

GEORGIA ------------- -26.2% ----- 4,019,400 ----- 5,443,359

LITHUANIA ----------- -23.5% ----- 2,810,761 ----- 3,674,802

BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA -- -22.0% ----- 3,415,752 ----- 4,377,033

CROATIA ------------- -18.7% ----- 3,888,529 ----- 4,784,265

ROMANIA ------------- -15.9% ---- 19,186,201 ---- 22,810,035

ESTONIA ------------- -15.0% ----- 1,330,068 ----- 1,565,662

UKRAINE ------------- -14.9% ---- 43,999,924 ---- 51,706,742

ALBANIA ------------- -11.1% ----- 2,829,741 ----- 3,182,417

ARMENIA -------------- -9.9% ----- 2,963,300 ----- 3,287,677

SERBIA --------------- -9.3% ----- 6,871,547 ----- 7,576,837

PUERTO RICO ---------- -9.3% ----- 3,193,694 ----- 3,522,037

BELARUS -------------- -8.3% ----- 9,349,645 ---- 10,199,709

HUNGARY -------------- -5.8% ----- 9,772,756 ---- 10,374,823

RUSSIA --------------- -2.5% --- 143,759,445 --- 147,400,537

POLAND --------------- +0.4% ---- 38,265,013 ---- 38,119,000

JAPAN ---------------- +2.1% --- 126,146,099 --- 123,611,167

CZECH REPUBLIC ------- +2.2% ---- 10,524,167 ---- 10,302,215

SLOVAKIA ------------- +3.3% ----- 5,449,270 ----- 5,274,335

GERMANY -------------- +4.3% ---- 83,155,031 ---- 79,753,227

ITALY ---------------- +4.4% ---- 59,257,566 ---- 56,778,031

GREECE --------------- +4.8% ---- 10,718,565 ---- 10,223,392

PORTUGAL ------------- +4.9% ---- 10,347,892 ----- 9,867,147

CUBA ----------------- +4.9% ---- 11,181,595 ---- 10,662,000

TAIWAN -------------- +14.3% ---- 23,561,236 ---- 20,605,831

SOUTH KOREA --------- +19.4% ---- 51,829,136 ---- 43,410,899

SPAIN --------------- +22.1% ---- 47,450,795 ---- 38,872,268

THAILAND ------------ +24.6% ---- 67,993,000 ---- 54,548,530

CHINA --------------- +24.8% - 1,411,778,724 - 1,130,822,993

UNITED STATES ------- +33.3% --- 331,449,281 --- 248,709,873






And some random regions, provinces/states, cities/metro areas that are either from those countries or also experience decline:

DETROIT (city) ------------------- -37.8% ------- 639,111 ----- 1,028,067

ALBANIA (sans Tirana & Durres) --- -35.4% ----- 1,625,522 ----- 2,514,659

BULGARIA (sans Sofia) ------------ -35.2% ----- 5,039,484 ----- 7,782,831

LATVIA (sans Riga-Pieriga) ------- -34.8% ------- 899,623 ----- 1,379,153

SAXONY-ANHALT (state) ------------ -27.5% ----- 2,180,684 ----- 3,008,000

CLEVELAND (city) ----------------- -26.3% ------- 372,624 ------- 505,629

CENTRAL-NORTH UKRAINE (region) --- -25.4% ----- 5,500,076 ----- 7,372,555

CROATIA (sans Zagreb) ------------ -24.3% ----- 2,817,379 ----- 3,723,450

DONBAS (region) ------------------ -24.1% ----- 6,221,602 ----- 8,195,129

ST. LOUIS (city) ----------------- -24.0% ------- 301,578 ------- 396,685

RIGA-PIERIGA (region) ------------ -22.8% ------- 993,600 ----- 1,287,414

THURINGIA (state) ---------------- -22.0% ----- 2,120,237 ----- 2,718,000

AKITA (prefecture) --------------- -21.8% ------- 959,502 ----- 1,227,478

BALTIMORE (city) ----------------- -20.4% ------- 585,708 ------- 736,016

EAST GERMANY (sans Berlin) ------- -18.8% ---- 12,499,707 ---- 15,394,000

PITTSBURGH (city) ---------------- -18.1% ------- 302,971 ------- 369,962

GENOA (city) --------------------- -17.7% ------- 558,930 ------- 678,771

ROMANIA (sans Bucharest) --------- -17.6% ---- 16,863,240 ---- 20,455,525

SOUTHERN UKRAINE (sans Crimea) --- -16.8% ----- 9,301,758 ---- 11,176,206

BELARUS (sans Minsk) ------------- -16.0% ----- 7,093,099 ----- 8,439,599

NAGASAKI (prefecture) ------------ -16.0% ----- 1,312,317 ----- 1,562,959

BUFFALO (city) ------------------- -15.2% ------- 278,349 ------- 328,233

SERBIA (sans Beograd) ------------ -14.6% ----- 4,995,513 ----- 5,846,281

SAN JUAN (urban area) ------------ -13.2% ----- 1,005,081 ----- 1,157,961

GENOA (metro area) --------------- -12.1% ----- 1,085,682 ----- 1,235,496

TURIN (city) --------------------- -11.9% ------- 848,196 ------- 962,507

SHIKOKU (region) ----------------- -11.9% ----- 3,696,171 ----- 4,195,069

TOHOKU (region) ------------------ -11.6% ----- 8,611,195 ----- 9,738,285

LIGURIA (region) ------------------ -9.9% ----- 1,509,805 ----- 1,676,282

HUNGARY (sans Budapest) ----------- -8.9% ----- 6,881,213 ----- 7,550,031

RUSSIA (sans Moscow) -------------- -5.0% --- 131,512,239 --- 138,435,315

PITTSBURGH (metro area) ----------- -3.9% ----- 2,370,930 ----- 2,468,289

SICILIA (region) ------------------ -2.5% ----- 4,840,876 ----- 4,966,386

SOUTHERN ITALY (region) ----------- -2.4% ---- 20,052,901 ---- 20,537,484

GALICIA (region) ------------------ -1.3% ----- 2,695,645 ----- 2,731,669

BUCHAREST (metro area) ------------ -1.3% ----- 2,322,961 ----- 2,354,510

TURIN (metro area) ---------------- -1.1% ----- 2,212,996 ----- 2,236,765

BUFFALO (metro area) -------------- -1.9% ----- 1,166,902 ----- 1,189,288

WEST VIRGINIA (state) ------------- +0.0% ----- 1,793,716 ----- 1,793,477

OSAKA-KOBE-KYOTO (metro area) ----- +0.6% ---- 20,541,441 ---- 20,414,233

ZAGREB (metro area) --------------- +1.0% ----- 1,071,150 ----- 1,060,815

CLEVELAND (metro area) ------------ +1.1% ----- 2,790,470 ----- 2,759,823

NAPLES (metro area) --------------- +1.4% ----- 5,410,526 ----- 5,337,254

BUDAPEST (metro area) ------------- +2.4% ----- 2,891,543 ----- 2,824,792

SOUTH KOREA (sans Seoul region) --- +3.9% ---- 25,787,831 ---- 24,826,761

ATHENS (metro area) --------------- +4.1% ----- 3,742,235 ----- 3,594,817

DETROIT (metro area) -------------- +4.5% ----- 5,325,319 ----- 5,095,695

BERLIN-BRANDENBURG (metro area) --- +4.6% ----- 6,195,159 ----- 5,925,000

ST. PETERSBURG (city) ------------- +7.2% ----- 5,384,342 ----- 5,023,506

BEOGRAD (metro area) -------------- +8.4% ----- 1,876,034 ----- 1,730,556

ST. LOUIS (metro area) ----------- +10.5% ----- 2,754,124 ----- 2,492,525

MILAN (metro area) --------------- +12.0% ----- 8,136,590 ----- 7,266,404

ROME (metro area) ---------------- +12.4% ----- 4,227,588 ----- 3,761,067

BERLIN (city) -------------------- +12.4% ----- 3,664,088 ----- 3,260,000

TOKYO (metro area) --------------- +13.3% ---- 43,653,441 ---- 38,543,517

WEST GERMANY (sans Berlin) ------- +13.4% ---- 66,991,236 ---- 59,064,333

KIEV (city) ---------------------- +13.8% ----- 2,962,180 ----- 2,602,754

LISBON (metro area) -------------- +13.9% ----- 2,871,133 ----- 2,520,708

BALTIMORE (metro area) ----------- +19.0% ----- 2,794,636 ----- 2,348,221

TAIPEI (metro area) -------------- +22.5% ----- 9,269,756 ----- 7,566,329

BARCELONA (metro area) ----------- +23.4% ----- 5,743,402 ----- 4,654,407

SOFIA (metro area) --------------- +23.5% ----- 1,480,830 ----- 1,198,615

MINSK (metro area) --------------- +28.2% ----- 2,256,546 ----- 1,760,110

MOSCOW (city) -------------------- +36.6% ---- 12,249,227 ----- 8,967,232

MADRID (metro area) -------------- +37.0% ----- 6,779,888 ----- 4,947,555

SEOUL (metro area) --------------- +40.1% ---- 26,043,325 ---- 18,586,128
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  #580  
Old Posted May 21, 2022, 6:18 PM
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I did not know this. Not like Houston then...

Think about all the little counties that dot metro Atlanta for one. each one needs a county seat so that's at least 20+ historic cores. then many of these counties had several small cities connected by railroad. a lot different than houston which mass annexed many of the small towns around it, then didnt care to help the old town areas (such as Spring), and others were demolished for flood control reservoirs like Addicks and Barker. on the flip side, this has made Houston's urban core one of the larger ones in the US that continues to connect and fill in every year.
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