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  #2441  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2022, 1:37 PM
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A quick reminder of the options:



Both Gold and Purple connect Phibbs to Park Royal. Gold benefits downtown commuters, but Purple benefits the region in general... and doesn't leave half of Metro Van overdependent on one big Expo. At any rate, the eventual solution will likely use some of both.
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  #2442  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2022, 6:31 PM
cganuelas1995 cganuelas1995 is offline
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
A quick reminder of the options:



Both Gold and Purple connect Phibbs to Park Royal. Gold benefits downtown commuters, but Purple benefits the region in general... and doesn't leave half of Metro Van overdependent on one big Expo. At any rate, the eventual solution will likely use some of both.
The purple line ending at Metrotown could also be extended into a line along 41st to UBC.
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  #2443  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2022, 6:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
A quick reminder of the options:



Both Gold and Purple connect Phibbs to Park Royal. Gold benefits downtown commuters, but Purple benefits the region in general... and doesn't leave half of Metro Van overdependent on one big Expo. At any rate, the eventual solution will likely use some of both.
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Originally Posted by cganuelas1995 View Post
The purple line ending at Metrotown could also be extended into a line along 41st to UBC.
With respect to the Gold option, it seems like a missed opportunity to have the two ends of the line relatively close (downtown/Park Royal) and not connect them to create a circular line.
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  #2444  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2022, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Tvisforme View Post
With respect to the Gold option, it seems like a missed opportunity to have the two ends of the line relatively close (downtown/Park Royal) and not connect them to create a circular line.
That little bit of tunneling would add at least eight figures to the price tag.
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  #2445  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2022, 11:51 PM
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Even if off-centre loops (e.g. original Millennium Line) didn't kinda suck, how would they even make one? Gold is another Expo extension; the west end of the line heads to Surrey.

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Originally Posted by cganuelas1995 View Post
The purple line ending at Metrotown could also be extended into a line along 41st to UBC.
Meh, I still think it could go off to the River District.
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  #2446  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 1:00 AM
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That little bit of tunneling would add at least eight figures to the price tag.
I'm presuming you meant nine figures, since even at $99,999,999 it would be a bargain. Even if it were an extra billion - and yes, that's a lot, but not a lot-lot in SkyTrain terms - it is still arguably worth it. Connecting Park Royal and Capilano Road directly to downtown makes the line far more attractive to commuters in the western part of the District and in West Vancouver. Otherwise, if you're west of Lonsdale and looking to go downtown, there's little incentive to take the train when the SeaBus or bus network will get you there as fast or faster than a route crossing near the IWM.
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  #2447  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 1:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Even if off-centre loops (e.g. original Millennium Line) didn't kinda suck, how would they even make one? Gold is another Expo extension; the west end of the line heads to Surrey.
Why does it have to be an extension of the Expo Line? Expo can end as it currently does; passengers transfer to the new line and go west for the West End, Stanley Park and western North Shore destinations, north (via SeaBus) for Lonsdale, and east for Hastings and eastern North Vancouver stops.
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  #2448  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 1:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Tvisforme View Post
Why does it have to be an extension of the Expo Line? Expo can end as it currently does; passengers transfer to the new line and go west for the West End, Stanley Park and western North Shore destinations, north (via SeaBus) for Lonsdale, and east for Hastings and eastern North Vancouver stops.
Because there's no space at Waterfront for a parallel line without major upgrades? Dragging the Expo all the way to Lonsdale may or may not be excessive, but it does allow TransLink to use existing SkyTrain infrastructure instead of building a completely new OMC and depot, both of which would definitely require nine figures.

And again, loops kind of suck. Better to extend the Gold/Purple/etc to Dunderave and have the (eventual) First Narrows-West End connector be its own line.

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Originally Posted by Tvisforme View Post
Connecting Park Royal and Capilano Road directly to downtown makes the line far more attractive to commuters in the western part of the District and in West Vancouver. Otherwise, if you're west of Lonsdale and looking to go downtown, there's little incentive to take the train when the SeaBus or bus network will get you there as fast or faster than a route crossing near the IWM.
Sure, the plan mostly benefits anybody east of Lonsdale and/or Clark Street, but that's where everybody's coming and going from anyway. West Van doesn't even want a RapidBus at the moment.
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  #2449  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 1:36 AM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Even if off-centre loops (e.g. original Millennium Line) didn't kinda suck, how would they even make one? Gold is another Expo extension; the west end of the line heads to Surrey.

Meh, I still think it could go off to the River District.
Although they used the Expo Extension as an example, I'm not 100% convinced it needs to be. There are advantages and disadvantages. It's nice to provide reverse peak along the Expo Line through to Granville, Burrard, Stadium, and Main St. but it's possible that that another route could be chosen as well... though I think that could drive costs up downtown.

I could also potentially see this more as a branch FROM downtown... the section along the North Shore has lower potential ridership than the Hastings portion. Branching after the PNE North across the inlet and South East to Brentwood and (eventually) Metrotown. M-Line riders could transfer at Brentwood or Commercial to go downtown or the North Shore (if a Burnaby/North Vancouver connection makes sense)

Side point.. WHY on earth would they choose GOLD? I know it's just a study... but seriously... we have a GOLD-COLORED M-Line!

The Green color makes sense.
A Purple color makes sense (although the WCE is purple).
How about RED? ORANGE? PINK? LIME? BROWN? SILVER? LAVENDER? Heck, if it's an extension, then why not just choose BLUE?

Anyhow, I see:
GOLD Line, Vancity-PNE-Lonsdale
PINK Line, Vancouver-PNE-Brentwood
PURPLE Line, Lonsdale-PNE-Brentwood
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  #2450  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 1:44 AM
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
Although they used the Expo Extension as an example, I'm not 100% convinced it needs to be. There are advantages and disadvantages. It's nice to provide reverse peak along the Expo Line through to Granville, Burrard, Stadium, and Main St. but it's possible that that another route could be chosen as well... though I think that could drive costs up downtown.

I could also potentially see this more as a branch FROM downtown... the section along the North Shore has lower potential ridership than the Hastings portion. Branching after the PNE North across the inlet and South East to Brentwood and (eventually) Metrotown. M-Line riders could transfer at Brentwood or Commercial to go downtown or the North Shore (if a Burnaby/North Vancouver connection makes sense)...

... Anyhow, I see:
GOLD Line, Vancity-PNE-Lonsdale
PINK Line, Vancouver-PNE-Brentwood
PURPLE Line, Lonsdale-PNE-Brentwood
One small problem: each line cuts into the frequency of the other two. If there was just a Pink (DT-PNE) and a Purple (Lonsdale-PNE-Metrotown), you could have 2-minute headways on each line plus a 1-minute transfer instead of 6 minutes for each.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
Side point.. WHY on earth would they choose GOLD? I know it's just a study... but seriously... we have a GOLD-COLORED M-Line!

The Green color makes sense.
A Purple color makes sense (although the WCE is purple).
How about RED? ORANGE? PINK? LIME? BROWN? SILVER? LAVENDER? Heck, if it's an extension, then why not just choose BLUE?
Heh, no arguments there.
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  #2451  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 2:07 AM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
One small problem: each line cuts into the frequency of the other two. If there was just a Pink (DT-PNE) and a Purple (Lonsdale-PNE-Metrotown), you could have 2-minute headways on each line plus a 1-minute transfer instead of 6 minutes for each.
Well, you'll end up with 2 minute headways on whatever section of the line is shared...

2 minute headways on the section between Brentwood and the PNE doesn't make as much sense as 2-minute headways under Hastings st.

So, you start with Gold to the North Shore and Pink to Brentwood (which acts as a relief line).
2 minutes on Hastings - PNE.
4 minutes PNE-Lonsdale
4 minutes PNE-Brentwood

IF a no-transfer direct North Shore to Brentwood/Metrotown connection makes sense, you add the purple line and end up with 2 min. frequencies on all branches.

It would be a bit of a complex track situation around the PNE, but there's space in that area to do it like that.

Realistically, only ONE of those is going to be done.

And the GOLD line looks WAY better than the Green line as you're getting TWO lines for the price of 1. The cost of tunneling directly is REALLY high... and we're going to need a Hastings Line at some point anyhow.
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  #2452  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 2:15 AM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Because there's no space at Waterfront for a parallel line without major upgrades? Dragging the Expo all the way to Lonsdale may or may not be excessive, but it does allow TransLink to use existing SkyTrain infrastructure instead of building a completely new OMC and depot, both of which would definitely require nine figures.

And again, loops kind of suck. Better to extend the Gold/Purple/etc to Dunderave and have the (eventual) First Narrows-West End connector be its own line.



Sure, the plan mostly benefits anybody east of Lonsdale and/or Clark Street, but that's where everybody's coming and going from anyway. West Van doesn't even want a RapidBus at the moment.
EXACTLY this. The routing from Lonsdale to Waterfront is about 13 km around the 2nd narrows and has 11 stops (although I doubt they'll get all 11 stations).

By way of comparison, the Surrey/Langley Extension is 16 km, has 8 additional stations and is estimated to have a 22 minute travel time.

Skytrain averages around 700/800m / minute... so I estimate 17/18 minutes to downtown. Not bad compared to Seabus, TBH.
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  #2453  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 3:22 AM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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A few more comparisons:

VCC-Clark–Production Way: ~13 km
The distance is almost identical.

SkyTrain that takes 17 minutes and makes 9 stops (including a few minutes at Commercial)

Commercial – Lougheed ~13.5 km. 19 minutes, 9 stops.

A comparable route (with a water crossing)
Royal Oak–Surrey Central ( 14 km ) 18 minutes, 7 stops.
Metrotown-Surrey Central ( 15 km ) 19 minutes, 8 stops.

I can almost guarantee they will NOT put 11 stations on this route (unless that's including stations all the way to Park Royal maybe).

Here's the new stations I forecast for a North Shore Line:
  • Japantown (On Cordova)
  • Strathcona
  • Commercial-Woodland
  • Nanaimo
  • Hastings Park
  • Phibb's Exchange
  • Moodyville
  • Lonsdale

Only 3 stations really make sense for the North Shore to start until Lonsdale.

Last edited by twoNeurons; Jan 7, 2022 at 5:00 AM.
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  #2454  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 3:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
A quick reminder of the options:



Both Gold and Purple connect Phibbs to Park Royal. Gold benefits downtown commuters, but Purple benefits the region in general... and doesn't leave half of Metro Van overdependent on one big Expo. At any rate, the eventual solution will likely use some of both.
If they decide to do both sections and it's a line with a split tail - what would you have as the main section vs the tails?

1) North Van splits to Burnaby and Vancouver
2) Burnaby splits to North Van and Vancouver
3) Vancouver splits to Burnaby and North Van

Now I think we can safely say the first option is silly and not going to happen (even if the image kind of looks like that). I know many will vote for the third one but I think the second option is possible too.

If they're going to (more likely) only build one my vote is for the purple line as it connects with both Expo and Millennium lines, and we need those grid connections more than the hub and spoke model.
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  #2455  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 4:23 AM
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post

Skytrain averages around 700/800m / minute... so I estimate 17/18 minutes to downtown. Not bad compared to Seabus, TBH.
Depending on how things pan out in the end, the Seabus could very well provide relief to the Gold/Purple lines and vice versa.
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  #2456  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 5:23 AM
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
If they decide to do both sections and it's a line with a split tail - what would you have as the main section vs the tails?

1) North Van splits to Burnaby and Vancouver
2) Burnaby splits to North Van and Vancouver
3) Vancouver splits to Burnaby and North Van

Now I think we can safely say the first option is silly and not going to happen (even if the image kind of looks like that). I know many will vote for the third one but I think the second option is possible too.
Yes, the 1st option was only presented that way on the image because otherwise this looks like another Vancouver Line (Hastings Line) instead of a North Shore Line... despite that actually making more sense because there is far more density and potential for density along Hastings than on the North Shore.

Burnaby is concentrating on Brentwood and Metrotown as its town centres, but it has yet to show any willingness to upzone single family housing. They're even having trouble getting a gondola to pass over TWO units in a co-op on the way to SFU!!!

In the end, trains on the Expo line will be running every 90 seconds... so unless you plan to short turn them... the Hastings portion of the line will already have trains available. I don't think the North Shore... or a Willingdon route will need 90 second frequencies... But I think it could be an alternative transfer point for riders on the M-Line going downtown instead of the crowds at Broadway/Commercial... for that you'd need the main branch along Hastings.

Quote:
If they're going to (more likely) only build one my vote is for the purple line as it connects with both Expo and Millennium lines, and we need those grid connections more than the hub and spoke model.
DO we, though? Most of the trips go from the North Shore to Vancouver... not to Brentwood... and consider where all the people East of Lonsdale are going to want to go.

And the Hastings Corridor is a valuable corridor on its own and will densify far faster than anything North of Brentwood in Burnaby Heights. Downtown will creep eastward.

Additionally, the Gold line already provides a one-seat ride to stadiums, Main St and even Metrotown, while at the same time using excess capacity on the Expo Line when serving downtown stations.
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  #2457  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 6:22 AM
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
Well, you'll end up with 2 minute headways on whatever section of the line is shared...

2 minute headways on the section between Brentwood and the PNE doesn't make as much sense as 2-minute headways under Hastings st.

So, you start with Gold to the North Shore and Pink to Brentwood (which acts as a relief line).
2 minutes on Hastings - PNE.
4 minutes PNE-Lonsdale
4 minutes PNE-Brentwood

IF a no-transfer direct North Shore to Brentwood/Metrotown connection makes sense, you add the purple line and end up with 2 min. frequencies on all branches.

It would be a bit of a complex track situation around the PNE, but there's space in that area to do it like that.

Realistically, only ONE of those is going to be done.

And the GOLD line looks WAY better than the Green line as you're getting TWO lines for the price of 1. The cost of tunneling directly is REALLY high... and we're going to need a Hastings Line at some point anyhow.
Then if I'm going from Lonsdale to downtown, it's a four-minute wait... and if the Purple Line gets added, it's a six-minute wait; seems easier for both passengers and TransLink to have two routes instead of three.

TransLink's most probably going to build Gold first, sure, but they'd be stupid to not allow for a future upgrade to accommodate Purple. It also potentially lets Gold go all the way to Kensington Square.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
... If they're going to (more likely) only build one my vote is for the purple line as it connects with both Expo and Millennium lines, and we need those grid connections more than the hub and spoke model.
Don't discount the usefulness of Gold - if we build Purple, the R5 very quickly turns into another 99. Both projects would need to happen right after the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
In the end, trains on the Expo line will be running every 90 seconds... so unless you plan to short turn them... the Hastings portion of the line will already have trains available. I don't think the North Shore... or a Willingdon route will need 90 second frequencies... But I think it could be an alternative transfer point for riders on the M-Line going downtown instead of the crowds at Broadway/Commercial... for that you'd need the main branch along Hastings.

DO we, though? Most of the trips go from the North Shore to Vancouver... not to Brentwood... and consider where all the people East of Lonsdale are going to want to go.

And the Hastings Corridor is a valuable corridor on its own and will densify far faster than anything North of Brentwood in Burnaby Heights. Downtown will creep eastward.

Additionally, the Gold line already provides a one-seat ride to stadiums, Main St and even Metrotown, while at the same time using excess capacity on the Expo Line when serving downtown stations.
Methinks you're overlooking the overall network. The idea behind a North Shore extension is to connect the North Shore to everywhere else; sure, Option 2 is really good for Hastings, but it means that anybody on the Expo or Millennium trying to get across the Inlet or vice-versa will have a 3-minute wait and a 1.5-minute transfer, just like Surrey-Coquitlam riders.
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  #2458  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 6:48 PM
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I'm presuming you meant nine figures, since even at $99,999,999 it would be a bargain.
I said at least, didn't I???

If the tunneling costs an extra billion while adding one stop in Stanley Park and another in the West End, I don't think the extra ridership would justify the cost. In the end, you would just split the North Shore ridership with some choosing the first narrows direction and some the second narrows, which would simultaneously weaken the ridership numbers and value of both crossings.
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  #2459  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 9:38 PM
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I said at least, didn't I???

If the tunneling costs an extra billion while adding one stop in Stanley Park and another in the West End, I don't think the extra ridership would justify the cost. In the end, you would just split the North Shore ridership with some choosing the first narrows direction and some the second narrows, which would simultaneously weaken the ridership numbers and value of both crossings.
I would think that a stop or two in the West End would generate a lot of traffic, seeing as how they show up in fantasy lines on a regular basis. More to the point, a connection across the First Narrows would not split the North Shore traffic so much as it would make the line viable for a large portion of the population that would not otherwise use it. I'm on the western side of the District; travel to downtown is is my most-likely transit use case as it is preferable to finding parking and fighting traffic. If SkyTrain involves going half-way across the District and then backtracking through Vancouver - or worse, having to transfer before back-tracking - I'd rather take a direct bus over the Lions Gate Bridge.

I'd also suggest that a Park Royal-downtown connection isn't just about getting West Vancouver to the city. It would also greatly improve access to the SkyTrain network for the roughly 50,000 people living in the West End. Have the line continue west from Waterfront Station to Coal Harbour, Robson/Denman and Davie/Denman before heading to Park Royal.
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  #2460  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 11:01 PM
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Personally I think the purple line should go down Boundary and connect with Joyce, then replace, or at least truncate if a phase has the line extend to Oakridge, the R4.
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