CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion

[k1052]

Originally Posted by twister244

Portillos!!!!!

Seriously, I'm shocked O'Hare doesn't have one.....

This plus a Harold's Chicken. CFA can FO.

[Tom In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

yeah, a portillo's at ORD could print its own money.

While this is very true, I have a hard time thinking about people eating Italian beef sandwiches dripping with au-jus and giardiniera while waiting to board their flight back to Dallas. . .

And not to get far too off topic, but I personally get the Italian beef/sausage combo dry - with both the au-jus and giardiniera on the side - as well as melted cheese (for dipping of course). . . I cut the sandwich in half and garnish each bite with the appropriate amount of sauce/peppers which prevents whatever I'm wearing that day from looking like Hiroshima when I'm done eating. . . not sure the average tourist pressed for time at O'Hare is going to heed the same level of attention required to keep from making a mess. . . [/mytwocents]

. . .

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago

While this is very true, I have a hard time thinking about people eating Italian beef sandwiches dripping with au-jus and giardiniera while waiting to board their flight back to Dallas. . .

And not to get far too off topic, but I personally get the Italian beef/sausage combo dry - with both the au-jus and giardiniera on the side - as well as melted cheese (for dipping of course). . . I cut the sandwich in half and garnish each bite with the appropriate amount of sauce/peppers which prevents whatever I'm wearing that day from looking like Hiroshima when I'm done eating. . . not sure the average tourist pressed for time at O'Hare is going to heed the same level of attention required to keep from making a mess. . . [/mytwocents]

. . .

I go for the hot dogs.... and the CHOCOLATE CAKE. Who doesn't want to bring that onto a plane ride and enjoy with a cocktail mid-flight? I know I would...

Seriously though, if you can have a McDonalds at the airport, you can do a Portillos (if we are talking about food quality here). Shitty food doesn't have boundaries that stop at airport terminals.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago

While this is very true, I have a hard time thinking about people eating Italian beef sandwiches dripping with au-jus and giardiniera while waiting to board their flight back to Dallas. . .

And not to get far too off topic, but I personally get the Italian beef/sausage combo dry - with both the au-jus and giardiniera on the side - as well as melted cheese (for dipping of course). . . I cut the sandwich in half and garnish each bite with the appropriate amount of sauce/peppers which prevents whatever I'm wearing that day from looking like Hiroshima when I'm done eating. . . not sure the average tourist pressed for time at O'Hare is going to heed the same level of attention required to keep from making a mess. . . [/mytwocents]

. . .

Just provide Portillo's bibs like the lobstah places in Boston! Problem solved.

Also lots of folks get hot dogs or burgers at Portillo's, so it's not just beef.

[jonesrmj]

The List of Busiest Airports for 2020 by passenger traffic is out! Chicago is no longer in the Top 10! I'm surprised that other airports like DFW and especially DEN surpassed it!

1.) Guangzhou Baiyun International Airport (China) - 43,760,427 passengers
2.) Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport (USA) - 42,918,685 passengers
3.) Chengdu Shuangliu International Airport (China) - 40,741,509 passengers
4.) Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport (USA) - 39,364,990 passengers
5.) Shenzhen Bao'an International Airport (China) - 37,916,059 passengers
6.) Chongqing Jiangbei International Airport (China) - 34,937,789 passengers
7.) Beijing Capital International Airport (China) - 34,513,827 passengers
8.) Denver International Airport (USA) - 33,741,129 passengers
9.) Kunming Changshui International Airport (China) - 32,989,127 passengers
10.) Shanghai Hongqiao International Airport (China) - 31,165,641 passengers
11.) Xi'an Xianyang International Airport (China) - 31,073,884 passengers
12.) Tokyo Haneda Airport (Japan) - 30,965,000 passengers
13.) Chicago O'Hare International Airport (USA) - 30,860,251 passengers
14.) Shanghai Pudong International Airport (China) - 30,476,531 passengers
15.) Los Angeles International Airport (USA) - 28,779,527 passengers
16.) Indira Gandhi International Airport (India) - 28,501,000 passengers
17.) Hangzhou Xiaoshan International Airport (China) - 28,224,342 passengers
18.) Charlotte Douglas International Airport (USA) - 27,200,000 passengers
19.) Dubai International Airport (UAE) - 25,900,000 passengers
20.) Istanbul Airport (Turkey) - 23,409,000 passengers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...senger_traffic

As far as aircraft movements go, Chicago has fallen to second place behind Atlanta:

1.) Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport (USA) - 548,016 aircraft movements
2.) Chicago O'Hare International Airport (USA) - 538,211 aircraft movements
3.) Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport (USA) - 514,702 aircraft movements
4.) Denver International Airport (USA) - 436,971 aircraft movements
5.) Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport (USA) - 402,444 aircraft movements
6.) Charlotte Douglass International Airport (USA) - 397,983 aircraft movements
7.) Los Angeles International Airport (USA) - 379,364 aircraft movements
8.) Guangzhou Baiyun International Airport (China) - 373,421 aircraft movements
9.) Shanghai Pudong International Airport (China) - 325,678 aircraft movements
10.) Las Vegas McCarran International Airport (USA) - 323,442 aircraft movements

https://aci.aero/news/2021/04/22/aci...iest-airports/

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by k1052

This plus a Harold's Chicken. CFA can FO.

Yes that's the correct answer. But I'll still go with Frontera every time.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by jonesrmj

The List of Busiest Airports for 2020 by passenger traffic is out! Chicago is no longer in the Top 10! I'm surprised that other airports like DFW and especially DEN surpassed it!

1.) Guangzhou Baiyun International Airport (China) - 43,760,427 passengers
2.) Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport (USA) - 42,918,685 passengers
3.) Chengdu Shuangliu International Airport (China) - 40,741,509 passengers
4.) Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport (USA) - 39,364,990 passengers
5.) Shenzhen Bao'an International Airport (China) - 37,916,059 passengers
6.) Chongqing Jiangbei International Airport (China) - 34,937,789 passengers
7.) Beijing Capital International Airport (China) - 34,513,827 passengers
8.) Denver International Airport (USA) - 33,741,129 passengers
9.) Kunming Changshui International Airport (China) - 32,989,127 passengers
10.) Shanghai Hongqiao International Airport (China) - 31,165,641 passengers
11.) Xi'an Xianyang International Airport (China) - 31,073,884 passengers
12.) Tokyo Haneda Airport (Japan) - 30,965,000 passengers
13.) Chicago O'Hare International Airport (USA) - 30,860,251 passengers
14.) Shanghai Pudong International Airport (China) - 30,476,531 passengers
15.) Los Angeles International Airport (USA) - 28,779,527 passengers
16.) Indira Gandhi International Airport (India) - 28,501,000 passengers
17.) Hangzhou Xiaoshan International Airport (China) - 28,224,342 passengers
18.) Charlotte Douglas International Airport (USA) - 27,200,000 passengers
19.) Dubai International Airport (UAE) - 25,900,000 passengers
20.) Istanbul Airport (Turkey) - 23,409,000 passengers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...senger_traffic

As far as aircraft movements go, Chicago has fallen to second place behind Atlanta:

1.) Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport (USA) - 548,016 aircraft movements
2.) Chicago O'Hare International Airport (USA) - 538,211 aircraft movements
3.) Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport (USA) - 514,702 aircraft movements
4.) Denver International Airport (USA) - 436,971 aircraft movements
5.) Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport (USA) - 402,444 aircraft movements
6.) Charlotte Douglass International Airport (USA) - 397,983 aircraft movements
7.) Los Angeles International Airport (USA) - 379,364 aircraft movements
8.) Guangzhou Baiyun International Airport (China) - 373,421 aircraft movements
9.) Shanghai Pudong International Airport (China) - 325,678 aircraft movements
10.) Las Vegas McCarran International Airport (USA) - 323,442 aircraft movements

https://aci.aero/news/2021/04/22/aci...iest-airports/

I'm basically ignoring 2020's statistics as a complete and total outlier. 2021's are going to be at least somewhat questionable as well, though I'd guess a bit more reliable than 2020's at least. Won't be until 2022 where passenger numbers, plane movements and overall rankings will really mean anything at all. I would surely expect ORD to be back in the top 10 unless nearly every major Chinese airport suddenly takes every spot on the list.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[the urban politician]

^ But Chicago's drop should have been similar to drops across the board.

Truth is, O'Hare is just no longer the king of airports that it once was for so many years. It's still a huge and important global airport, but other airports have obviously usurped it.

Now, I think Chicago's location will always give it a natural advantage with air traffic. But the growth of the sunbelt and population shifts further south and west are obviously going to prop up Atlanta and Dallas

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ But Chicago's drop should have been similar to drops across the board.

Truth is, O'Hare is just no longer the king of airports that it once was for so many years. It's still a huge and important global airport, but other airports have obviously usurped it.

Now, I think Chicago's location will always give it a natural advantage with air traffic. But the growth of the sunbelt and population shifts further south and west are obviously going to prop up Atlanta and Dallas

I'm not an aviation consultant. You're obviously partly correct. But ORD is a little funny, too. Chicago is the number one business travel destination in the U.S. And in a country where people largely move from city to city by plane, that makes airports here very different from, say, Tokyo or Heathrow, where they are essentially just entry and exit country-ports. You would expect those different kinds of airports to have different behaviors when traffic drops 55%

Also, Denver, Atlanta, Charlotte and DFW are single airline hubs. ORD having two major hubs has advantages and disadvantages, but when airlines retreat to core operations, those shelters may not advantage the more unpredictable Chicago.

Passenger throughput depends a lot on large international flights deplaning constantly and then heading off to their connections. Chicago's international operation is a mess. You're not going to see that kind of traffic tick up compared to its peers once the global terminal is complete. But once that happens, maybe lookout? It's going to be the smoothest most convenient terminal to operate in in the Americas by far, it seems--the only U.S. terminal that functions at the level you see in Seoul, Madrid or Tokyo. And obviously it will be the newest. Combine that with more runways than any other airport and ORD is going to get it's fair share. Though ATL and LAX (like Dubai) have logistical advantages for international flights related to geography that you can't buy.

[the urban politician]

^ Yeah, my comments are more related to ORD today.

Once the Global terminal gets completed, I'm sure ORD will see a huge growth. Will it return to being top in the world? I"m guessing not, but then, what do I know?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

I

Also, Denver, Atlanta, Charlotte and DFW are single airline hubs. ORD having two major hubs has advantages and disadvantages, but when airlines retreat to core operations, those shelters may not advantage the more unpredictable Chicago.

yeah, fortress hubs seemed to fair a bit better than multi-hubs, generally speaking.

there also seems to be a correlation between airports in states that didn't lockdown as hard and smaller % drops in passenger traffic. i mean, the bottom 5 here are all in NY, CA, and IL.


but overall 2020 US airport passenger traffic drops were pretty brutal across the board, some just didn't free-fall quite as much as others.



2019 - 2020 % decrease in passenger traffic:

Charlotte Douglas International Airport: -46.0%
Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport: -47.5%
Denver International Airport: -51.1%
Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport: -52.6%
Fort Lauderdale–Hollywood International Airport: -55.1%
Orlando International Airport: -57.7%
Miami International Airport: -59.4%
George Bush Intercontinental Airport: -59.5%
Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport: -60.2%
Seattle–Tacoma International Airport: -61.3%
O'Hare International Airport: -63.5%
Newark Liberty International Airport: -65.7%
Los Angeles International Airport: -67.3%
San Francisco International Airport: -71.4%
John F. Kennedy International Airport: -73.4%

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...senger_traffic

[nomarandlee]

It would seem by those last numbers that those that took the hardest hit are also the US airports most reliant and best performing when taken into account international passengers. This isn't too surprising considering that international travel basically shut down in the last year while domestic travel was on mere life-support.

Also not surprising that American, United, and Delta all doubled down on the hub-spoke model during the pandemic at their fortress hubs. A lot more regional flights from ORD compared to Denver but I don't think United was not too worried about serving flights to Duluth/Lansing/Dayton last summer. They likely just wanted to make sure their prime East-West major city markets were efficiently connected based on a more limited service model. So Denver probably didn't see the drawdown that ORD did. And given the number of gates and control in Dallas American will always use Dallas as hub of first resort in most cases.

As far as all those Chinese cities on the top list that is likely a site that will be seen in the coming years, obviously. Not to get to political but especially during this Covid era at least I don't trust Chinese numbers very much, be they in the case of Covid cases or passenger counts.

[Chi-Sky21]

Well, having 4 times our population helps, pretty sure they will have even MORE airports pass us by soon.

[F1 Tommy]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

yeah, fortress hubs seemed to fair a bit better than multi-hubs, generally speaking.

there also seems to be a correlation between airports in states that didn't lockdown as hard and smaller % drops in passenger traffic. i mean, the bottom 5 here are all in NY, CA, and IL.

100% true. As Illinois was so unpredictable airlines were pulling Chicago traffic to southern hubs will a more open mentality. ATL, DFW, CLT, DEN all gained from this with AA, UA, DL connection flights pulling Chicago traffic, but they also had very low load factors overall at those hubs. The true sign of how important Chicago really is are the overall movement at ORD last year(2nd even with much less passenger flights). And don't forget RFD was moving alot of cargo last year too. International airlines continued to fly into ORD even when almost every other US airport were not getting flights. Aer Lingus is a perfect example with 75 % of their North American flights last summer going to ORD. CARGO CARGO CARGO...

[jonesrmj]

Good points everyone is making!

I've definitely noticed tons of cargo coming into Chicago, with a lot of European airlines and Chinese airlines operating multiple cargo flights a day.

International traffic is slowly starting to pick up again at ORD. I saw that United recently restarted service to Tel Aviv, Emirates will increase DXB to 6x a week in June, British Airways restarts passenger service to LHR in a few weeks, and the number of flights to Asia will increase later this year.

I also think most of those numbers for the fortress hubs are primarily domestic since airports like ATL, DFW, and especially DEN don't have anywhere near the number of airlines or international destinations served as ORD does. I mean sure ATL was the world's busiest airport (before 2020), but it isn't even top 25 for international traffic. It's only because Delta connects everyone flying domestic through there.

I guess Chicago will make a big comeback once the Global Terminal is complete because of how easy it will be to pass through the airport and it would completely transform O'Hare into a world class airport. I can't wait for the Global Terminal to be complete and I would love to fly into it sometime if I ever visit or connect through Chicago again.

For those of you that frequently fly through ORD, would you say that the runway reorientation to make 6 runways parallel has helped with delays?

[OhioGuy]

Still no word on when ORD’s ATS/people mover will finally reopen? I searched online and didn’t find much news recently.

[Tcmetro]

It's been in testing for a while and is basically done. I believe they are planning to demolish the old remote parking station at some point, but it is still standing.

[F1 Tommy]

A few photos from ORD. I may have taken a few of them

https://www.airlinefan.com/airline-p...O%27Hare-Int./

[Chicagoguy]

Unlocking United’s Hub Waves: Inside The Airline’s Recovery

"United Airlines will add over 400 additional flights each day this July, pushing its total planned schedule to 80% of what it had in pre-pandemic July 2019. Confidence is returning, aided by vaccination progress, and the airline is responding. Key in this is adding back waves at Chicago and Washington, which is vital in helping the hubs to recover."

O’Hare’s fightback for largest hub:
"In July 2019, O’Hare took the throne for the number-one hub, as indicated below. Cutbacks meant it reduced to third, with Gupta saying that two waves will be added – or, really, added back."

https://simpleflying.com/unlocking-uniteds-hub-waves/

[jonesrmj]

Good news! Emirates is increasing it's ORD-DXB service frequency to 7x week (1x daily) in June! It originally wasn't supposed to increase to 7x week (1x daily) until November, so that could be a sign that international travel from ORD is starting to rebound!

I'm kinda surprised though that they are increasing frequency but not bringing the A380 to ORD this summer, whereas for places like Washington and San Francisco, they are bringing the A380 back there this summer but will continue to only have 4x a week frequencies for those two cities.