DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

The train would not give Boulder an equal level of service. It would come less often and not go to the right place. It's not better than the BRT. This is why we say you just want prestige.

Originally Posted by Launch 12

So, it is unfair that Boulder doesn't have the same level of service as other parts of the metro area

To which it must be added:
- the Flatiron Flyer (call it whatever you want, BRT or not) is already a better level of service than is enjoyed by other parts of the metro area;
- the core bus service in Boulder is already a better level of service than is enjoyed by other parts of the metro area; and
- the B line extension is not the only bit of Fastracks that is unfinished.

All are facts that have to be addressed by any argument in favor of the B line extension that focuses on equity and taxes. (Because the transportation argument for investing a billion dollars to move 800 people will never exist.)

Forget Boulder vs. Denver. Why should Boulder get its extension when Highlands Ranch - same population - gets much worse service from RTD on all fronts. Shouldn't the SW extension come first?

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by laniroj

As I have suggested in the past, ANY infrastructure spending coming from the state or federal government should have yuuge strings attached and reward communities/states which effectively force changes to local zoning laws. All federal spending should have these strings IMO. Trump proposed a working group that came to this conclusion with Ben Carson leading and the media reaction was quite different, as you may imagine. Nonetheless, this opinion piece from NYT perfectly summarizes the connection between transit and development, for anyone wanting to parlay this back into a development forum.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/12/o...re-zoning.html

Sorry, I couldn't get a free pass past their paywall. The best way I access the NYT is via Yahoo News for those pieces that are printed there.

But I can one-up you by pointing to Katy O'Donnell's piece in Politico entitled "How Biden hopes to fix the thorniest problem in housing"

Katy does a nice job explaining the 'political' positions from the right, the left and the center. Unfortunately the result is two to one against your pet position. The center position including Dem Mayors don't want to be dictated to from above. It's sort of the nature of we humans to want to decide our own fate.

Originally Posted by gopokes21

No, TakeFive, Aurora is not too dense and nobody has ever suggested that.

Isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder?

Originally Posted by Launch 12

So, it is unfair that Boulder doesn't have the same level of service as other parts of the metro area and just because you have negative perceptions of the people that live in Boulder doesn't mean it does not deserve the service it voted for. Taxes from Boulder have contributed to the construction of lines in other areas. The whole us vs. them mentality of the blog is depressing to me. Good bye.

Yes, I quite agree that in one sense it is not fair. I'll go along to get along on one condition.

If the Honorable Governor can come up with the funding for the train to Boulder then fine. For RTD's part they would have trouble keeping the lights on were it not for all the pandemic helicopter money.

BTW, as nice as Boulder may be it is only 3% of the metro population. Boulder County however is a little over 10%.


Well Played

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Brilliant. And who said satire was dead?

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Forget Boulder vs. Denver. Why should Boulder get its extension when Highlands Ranch - same population - gets much worse service from RTD on all fronts. Shouldn't the SW extension come first?

I'd love to see the SW extension but Mineral Station is a 5-10 drive for much of Highlands Ranch. If you live in Highlands Ranch and cannot drive to Mineral in 10 minutes, then you are probably 10 to 15 minutes away from one of Lone Tree's 5 stations. But the SW corridor is a great corridor. 30 minutes to downtown and an extension into Highlands Ranch would probably be pretty well utilized.

[TakeFive]

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[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

It's somewhat fair to point out that most of the bloggers here are very City of Denver myopic. Even close by Aurora as been the object of scorn since it's a place where people can affordably live.

You specifically called out people on this forum as being Denver-myopic in response to constructive criticism to the B line extension and said that we were anti-Aurora due to it's affordability as evidence of our Denver centrism. Then in your next post you went on to defend your point by mentioning some random people that you interacted with over the years who didn't like Aurora's "density". Now, your only response is "isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder?".

The point is nobody here said we don't like Aurora for it's affordability or density. In fact, most of us that have bashed on Aurora was because it's lack of density or car-centric density at best. This is not a matter of opinion situation. You said something that was untrue then conflated it with personal experiences elsewhere.

Look, the reason I have so much disdain for you is because you constantly slide conversation goalposts to suit your point and then end conversations with folksy nonsense. It makes it feel like you do not debate in good faith and it's incredibly frustrating.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

You specifically called out people on this forum as being Denver-myopic in response to constructive criticism to the B line extension and said that we were anti-Aurora due to it's affordability as evidence of our Denver centrism. Then in your next post you went on to defend your point by mentioning some random people that you interacted with over the years who didn't like Aurora's "density". Now, your only response is "isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder?".

The point is nobody here said we don't like Aurora for it's affordability or density. In fact, most of us that have bashed on Aurora was because it's lack of density or car-centric density at best. This is not a matter of opinion situation. You said something that was untrue then conflated it with personal experiences elsewhere.

Look, the reason I have so much disdain for you is because you constantly slide conversation goalposts to suit your point and then end conversations with folksy nonsense. It makes it feel like you do not debate in good faith and it's incredibly frustrating.

Okay, I'll indulge you since I'm taking a break from waxing my car.

Couple of points:

I'm terrible at reading your mind; if you had wanted me to understand what the hell you were talking about then you should have explained yourself rather than have me guessing.

Your specific view doesn't necessarily match others. Most people are capable and do have their own POV. This blog goes back 15+ years. I don't think your specific view necessarily matches others over that time period.

Aurora, like other cities got to where it is by traveling a path over many decades. It's no more, no less car-centric than other suburbs (including Denver's own suburbs). If you think it lacks density then you're looking through a specific urban lens (or aren't familiar with the area).

Turns out a duplex is twice as dense as a SFH; a fourplex is 4X times as dense; a condo complex is waaay more dense than a SFH. In the context and time when Aurora and other suburbs were expanding Aurora was considered Too Dense by comparison. If you weren't aware of that it's okay.

Some of it was 'provincial' but mostly it was a class thing.

I stand by my statement which reflects not only many here but other friends of mine who've lived in Denver over the years. It doesn't bother me; it never has.

BTW, reasonable people can reasonably disagree. Since this is a blog it happens frequently. Any personal animosity you have is your burden to bear.

[coolmandan03]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Okay, I'll indulge you since I'm taking a break from waxing my car.

Who's waxing their car on a snow day?

[Sam Hill]

Why are people constantly referring to this messages board, or forum, as a blog? I post regularly on several forums and have never seen any of them referred to as blogs.

Also, takefive, your latest comments are impossible to follow. I mean, even more than usual. At first you make a comment about a community of urbanists bashing a suburb for being too urban - which I automatically assumed was sarcasm but I just wasn’t getting the joke. And now you’re obfuscating by talking around in circles and forging a false narrative that these past few pages of discussion were something other than what they were.

Man, you seem like a really amiable guy and somehow you manage to always stay positive and see the good in everyone here - even if they’ve insulted you in the past - and you never resort to hurling insults of your own, so my instinct is to root for you and hope you’ll come around and stop cluttering this place up, but lately you’ve been really letting me down.

My advice to you would be to stick more to those stylistic, quasi-journalistic development updates with the whimsical editorializing and whatnot. I actually read and enjoy those - even if I don’t always agree with the editorializing.

Stop with the devil’s advocate nonsense. You say something you know damn well an urbanist community will disagree with, or come to the defense of an instigator who said something he/she knows damn well an urbanist community will disagree with, then proceed to clutter up this “blog” with meandering, obfuscating retorts to every criticism of your posts and next thing I know I’m scrolling through pages of nonsense.

Now I’m not asking you to refrain from expressing any opinion of yours that might be unpopular here; I’m just asking you to have better awareness as to how that might turn into pages of tedious debate that most of us have no interest in scrolling through, and have more awareness of when you might be making that debate more tedious.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

Who's waxing their car on a snow day?

He lives in Arizona.

[gopokes21]

IT'S A BUFFALO PRESERVE just saying

[TakeFive]

This has gotten totally hilarious and ridiculous

I make what is intended to be an empathetic comment with no thought that it would somehow be controversial.

Then The Dirt jumps my case by saying:

Originally Posted by The Dirt

Yeah, that's not at all why people here hate Aurora and you know it.

which leaves me no clue what he's thinking or why.

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

Why are people constantly referring to this messages board, or forum, as a blog? I post regularly on several forums and have never seen any of them referred to as blogs.

It's all the same thing; google the definition of forum; there's no difference. But in the future, if I remember, I'd be happy to say forum instead of blog.

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

At first you make a comment about a community of urbanists bashing a suburb for being too urban - which I automatically assumed was sarcasm...

Actually, it wasn't about 'urbanism' per se but I can appreciate how newer 'forumers' might be confused. I was mostly poking fun at past comments directed at Aurora for reasons... I've diligently tried to explain. It may be that you weren't around when this happened so you have no clue what I'm referring to. Hint: what was it about Aurora that was different from any other suburb?

I appreciate/respect your additional comments.

Why don't we just move on from what wasn't intended to be controversial in the first place.

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

Who's waxing their car on a snow day?

That's funny... ofc it's perfect 'waxing' weather down here with highs in the low 80's.

Oddly, I sometimes get a heads up from seeing a Denver forecast that (at this time of year) likely means more comfortable temps down here.

[coolmandan03]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

That's funny... ofc it's perfect 'waxing' weather down here with highs in the low 80's.

Oddly, I sometimes get a heads up from seeing a Denver forecast that (at this time of year) likely means more comfortable temps down here.

You living in Arizona explains so much about the disconnect in your post...

[seventwentyone]

I am more disappointed that our fearless mods have not made the NEWEST Denver thread yet, since we are at 10,000.

#recallcirrus

#Denver8isgreat

[The Dirt]

seventwentyone, did your original account get banned or something?

[seventwentyone]

Nah. Password manager fucked up and the reset password feature on this here blog forum didn’t send me a recovery password.

...until it sent it to me over an hour later.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

You living in Arizona explains so much about the disconnect in your post...

You ever eat at the Gold Hill Inn?

I was just thinking about how my deepest knowledge and familiarity was of Boulder, Denver and Arapahoe counties.

Are you familiar with HPTE's pending purchase of the Burnham Yard rail property?

Originally Posted by seventwentyone

Nah. Password manager fucked up and the reset password feature on this here blog forum didn’t send me a recovery password.

...until it sent it to me over an hour later.

Noticed the same thing.

It's been awhile but you usually pop in from time to time. I hope things are going well.

[Interzen]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Are you familiar with HPTE's pending purchase of the Burnham Yard rail property?

What are you referring to and who is HPTE?

Did you see this Denver Post Article today:
All aboard: State to help CDOT secure critical railroad land in central Denver
'Burnham Yard could serve as a hub for new rail line for Amtrak along Front Range; remaining land to be developed for residential, commercial purposes'

[The Dirt]

God, I can't believe we're talking about expanding I-25 through central Denver in... <checks watch>... 2021.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Are you familiar with HPTE's pending purchase of the Burnham Yard rail property?

Indeed.

Originally Posted by Interzen

What are you referring to and who is HPTE?

Did you see this Denver Post Article today:
All aboard: State to help CDOT secure critical railroad land in central Denver
'Burnham Yard could serve as a hub for new rail line for Amtrak along Front Range; remaining land to be developed for residential, commercial purposes'

He's referring to that. HPTE is part of CDOT.

Originally Posted by The Dirt

God, I can't believe we're talking about expanding I-25 through central Denver in... <checks watch>... 2021.

Now now, this is not about expanding I-25. But there will be a whole EIS process to flesh that out. There is a bottleneck there that needs fixing. But at most, I'd expect connecting through to the existing managed lanes. Nobody is talking about replicating Houston here. (Let's get a beer, but trust me, the thinking is very 2021.)

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

You living in Arizona explains so much about the disconnect in your post...

Very important question - why is the Picard facepalm not a standard iPhone emoji by now? Is there a hack that will allow me to use this in everyday texts?