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  #441  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 2:49 PM
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By 2050 tysons should have 100,000 residents and 113 million sq feet of new development

https://www.tysonsreporter.com/2020/...ysons-by-2050/
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  #442  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 3:10 PM
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Tysons sucks, just like Mississauga. Both are irredeemable postwar crap.

There's a major functional difference, though. Tysons is the second most important regional corporate center, trailing only downtown DC. Mississauga is more of a residential center.
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  #443  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 9:28 PM
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It’s not great but no reason it couldn’t be vastly improved
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  #444  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 9:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Tysons sucks, just like Mississauga. Both are irredeemable postwar crap.

There's a major functional difference, though. Tysons is the second most important regional corporate center, trailing only downtown DC. Mississauga is more of a residential center.
Well guess what?

Your attempt at portraying Mississauga as lesser of the two failed again. It is much bigger than Tyson's Corner, and is also a regional and indeed national center for HQs in the Toronto area.
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  #445  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 9:51 PM
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Hmm, tysons has 28 mm square feet of office space; it’s the business center of Fairfax county with over a million people

Anyhow Reston station is another development just down the road : 40 acres total

https://www.restonnow.com/2020/11/02...e-reston-east/

Above link to 26 acres of transit oriented development around the new silver line

More info

https://commercialobserver.com/2020/...eston-station/

This calls for 7 highrises so maybe we see some skyline building in addition to all the midrise activity

https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/public...metro-approved
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  #446  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Yeah, I don't think this demographic really exists in the U.S. Unless we're talking an extreme housing-shortage type area (say Palo Alto or Cupertino in Silicon Valley) sprawl highrises wouldn't work (and such areas wouldn't approve a four-floor building, to say nothing of a forty-floor one).

And you're probably right that housing filtering is a key difference. U.S. Metros tend to have lower-desirability older housing that filters to working class immigrants. Toronto doesn't have SFH neighborhoods like this, except maybe maybe a few older commiebloc-adjacent hoods, like in Scarborough, or Jane-Finch.
You do have some filtering, and you do have working class SFH housing, but the process is somewhat different from your typical US metro.

Because Central Toronto has maintained a high level of desirability, the filtering is happening further from the core. And because Toronto has a lot of immigrants, a lot of outer suburban areas start out as diverse middle class neighbourhoods, and then filter down to become working class ethnic enclaves, and then more or less stabilize. And because Toronto is a fairly new city, the filtering is happening mainly in 70s-00s neighbourhoods.

Whereas with US metros, new subdivisions are more likely to be geared towards the upper-middle class, and be majority white, so there's a longer process towards them becoming working class ethnic enclaves. On the other hand, because there was a greater movement of the white upper-middle class into the outer suburbs, you've opened up the inner city to working class blacks and immigrants much more, so the ethnic enclaves tend to be there instead. With the ethnic working class leaving the inner cities, either due to gentrification or due to decline/abandonment, those working class ethnic enclaves are shifting into early post-WWII suburbs, but they're still much more close in than in Toronto.

The GTA's main working class SFH areas would be

Milliken (late 70s to mid 80s)
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.82483...7i16384!8i8192

Malvern/Morningside Heights (70s-00s)
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.81298...7i16384!8i8192

North Etobicoke/Rexdale (60s-80s)
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.72942...7i16384!8i8192

Malton (40s-80s)
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.72178...7i16384!8i8192

SW Brampton (80s-00s)
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.64625...7i16384!8i8192

You are starting to see some US cities follow a similar pattern though. Like Seattle's ethnic working class lives pretty far south along the Green River Valley and increasingly, into Pierce County.

Also Houston remains working class pretty far into new-ish suburbs in its NW and SW quadrants, although much of its inner city is still very low income.
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  #447  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 11:32 PM
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Mississauga is getting a lot of attention on here currently, particularly MCC.
However like Toronto it has many nodes where highrises are currently going up


Port Credit


https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...p.28285/page-2

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...20755/page-157

Hurontario north of Eglinton


Last edited by Nite; Mar 1, 2021 at 11:57 PM.
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  #448  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 11:32 PM
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95% of Toronto single family homes are owned by Native born Canadians .

Condos are half owned by foreign born buyers
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  #449  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 11:40 PM
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Tyson's Corner is interesting. With enough transit and enough residents, maybe those parking lots can redeveloped. Mississauga City Centre was originally an office park as well, so maybe the two places actually have a lot in common.

But such a deliberate attempt to suburbs more integrated and connected with the rest of the urban area instead of deliberately making them as isolated and segregated as possible, suburbs designed for inclusion instead of exclusion, that is normal in Canada, not so much in the US. Tyson's Corner is much more an outlier than Mississauga City Centre. Nothing special Mississauga City Centre, it is normal, but maybe something special about Tyson's Corner. Considering the context, Tyson's Corner is much more ambitious, facing a much bigger uphill battle.

The majority of high-rises in the Toronto are in the post-war suburban areas. Literally, maybe 1200 high-rises in the inner city (Old Toronto, York, East York), and 1400 high-rises in the suburbs (North York, Etobicoke, Scarborough, and the 905). There has never been much city vs. suburbs in Canada, not so much this vs. that.

Look at the Hurontario corridor picture I posted and see high-rises from 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s all in one picture. MCC is just a very small part of a long history of what has going on not just in Mississauga but also the rest of the Toronto area and Canada. Unlike Tyson's, MCC is not an outlier at all. Tyson's Corner is the bigger achievement no matter what.
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  #450  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 11:45 PM
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Hmm , I would say tysons is an outlier in dc as it was not originally developed on the subway lines ; until the silver line it was entirely auto centric

Most suburban high density nodes , present and future , are on the metro

Bethesda
Crystal city
Pentagon city
Silver spring
Roslyn to ballston corridor
Dunn loring / merrifield
Rockville
New Carrollton
Gaithersburg
Friendship heights
Various parts of Alexandria

The other outliers being the university of Maryland and reston (also originally far from the metro ) and maybe seven corners

I never thought bethesda or silver spring looked disconnected from the urban area but anyhow ...
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  #451  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Think you’re understating the activity in Tyson’s . And note that the idea isn’t to replace every office building . There are not 1500 acres of parking lots .

I count 7 major projects under construction in tysons with 33 currently proposed

One project , capital one hq , totals 26 acres and multiple buildings

There are additional 30 acre , 17 acre , and 46 acre sites being worked on with buildings proposed or under construction

https://ggwash.org/view/79553/tysons...r-construction
I didn't say it was 1500 acres of parking lots, that's why I cut the overall area that would need to be redeveloped to about half that (750 acres).

Anyways, I guess Skyscraperpage's database for Tysons was out of date so it made it seem like there was less development happening there (Mississauga's is pretty up to date).

Perhaps it can be transformed relatively quickly then. It's true that Mississauga Center isn't as important of an office node. Mississauga's biggest office node is at Orbitor & Matheson (Airport Corporate Center). Mississauga Road & 401 (Meadowvale) is likely bigger too, maybe even Hurontario & 401.

Most of the new office development has been in those 3 office nodes along the 401 as well. So that's probably an advantage for Tysons (and Reston).

Two disadvantages though:

1) The road network. Although it's already pretty bad with Mississauga Center, it seems to be even worse with Tysons, with more highways, and even bigger and more numerous arterials. A lot of them don't even have sidewalks? And they seem more difficult to cross on foot too. What's the plan for that?

2) More above ground parking garages. Although there seem to be a few underground garages in Tysons, Mississauga Center has been going with pretty much 100% underground garages for a while now. Those above ground garages in Tysons reduce density, and in the case of the garage podiums for the highrises, they also have a deadening effect on the streetscape. Mississauga's condos have a lot of windows and balconies on the first few floors above grade (the ones that count the most). Meanwhile Tysons has facades like this...
https://www.google.ca/maps/@38.92504...7i16384!8i8192

At least with the surface parking lots and detached parking structures, you could reasonably expect those to be redeveloped one day. Those parking podiums in Tysons are there to stay.

I suppose the parking garages with wrap-around midrises aren't as bad, since you don't notice from the street, although they still reduce density and are unlikely to get redeveloped.
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  #452  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2021, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Tysons sucks, just like Mississauga. Both are irredeemable postwar crap.

There's a major functional difference, though. Tysons is the second most important regional corporate center, trailing only downtown DC. Mississauga is more of a residential center.
I disagree strongly that Mississauga is crap especially it's urban parts like Port Credit and Streetville

Port credit
https://goo.gl/maps/mk24Uh82LP6QXvwn9
https://goo.gl/maps/8mKVsNgcahVfeC2K8
https://goo.gl/maps/bEFVL5oLqTfozzvv8
https://goo.gl/maps/mSHcFfrud8pfnafD8
https://goo.gl/maps/P5kS5twSsNt9B5wi7
https://goo.gl/maps/xm8yG2hKq1Js67fSA
https://goo.gl/maps/TQDF1uDpztJLGJMp9
https://goo.gl/maps/K8QXDvdzjYcGQAmP7

Streetsville
https://goo.gl/maps/5rJFsve7jBudYiec8
https://goo.gl/maps/V1yNfbFahyyqvbse6
https://goo.gl/maps/KSQ5jwp3BYzbiZih7

Last edited by Nite; Mar 2, 2021 at 12:40 AM.
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  #453  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2021, 12:16 AM
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Crawford was speaking of MCC only, not all of Mississauga in general.
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  #454  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2021, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doady View Post
Crawford was speaking of MCC only, not all of Mississauga in general.
I doubt he even knows much about Mississauga and it's different parts
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  #455  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2021, 12:43 AM
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The road network is atrocious and will prevent tysons from ever having a completely urban environment, but it won’t prevent a decent density
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  #456  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2021, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
95% of Toronto single family homes are owned by Native born Canadians .

Condos are half owned by foreign born buyers
I suppose I can see it for the condos. Most of the residents are immigrants, so it would make sense if much of the owners were immigrants too.

95% of SFHs being non-immigrant owned seems hard to believe though. Is that for the City of Toronto of for the GTA?

For the GTA there should be much more immigrant owners. I suspect that most of the immigrants in the city proper are either renters or condo owners, but there should still be a decent number of immigrant homeowners in the neighbourhoods north of the 401. However, in the suburbs, the immigrants are much more middle class, and the housing stock is mostly SFH, so the % of SFHs owned by immigrants should be much higher than that.
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  #457  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2021, 12:51 AM
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  #458  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2021, 1:42 AM
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Baileys Crossroads, VA (suburban DC) generally has a very autocentric built environment with quite a lot of highrises and apartments. the actual skyline is quite visible from parts of Arlington as its on top of the ridge line crossing the southern part of the county. the achilles heel is the 1990s/2000s power-center formatted retail, which absent a metro station won't get redeveloped into mix use anytime soon.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Se...!4d-77.1468067

commieblock highrises

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8449...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8422...7i16384!8i8192

new, more urban, midrise, street-fronting developments

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8414...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8560...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8540...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8388...7i16384!8i8192

2000s self contained urban village (shirlington)

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8418...7i16384!8i8192
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  #459  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2021, 2:00 AM
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look at how suburban redevelopment differs in dc vs Toronto. here's columbia pike in Arlington.

Columbia pike lacks metro access. the new buildings (I count 5 recently built structures) on the northern section of the road) lining the route are massive midrises instead of highrises.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8541...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8632...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8613...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8566...7i16384!8i8192

2010s midrise next to 1960s midrise

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Se...!4d-77.1468067
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  #460  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2021, 2:04 AM
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similarly:

development around eisenhower east station, in the western corner of Alexandria VA

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8026...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8007...7i16384!8i8192

a pretty visible skyline from right angles (eg from the masonic monument in dc)

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Se...!4d-77.1468067

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8022...7i16384!8i8192

fully built out in the last 20 years.
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