T'su Tina Vote

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by WeavedWeb

Wasn't the casino approved by the province on the understanding that an agreement would be reached to build the ring road through the lands? Is there any recourse at all now that they didn't keep their end of the deal?

That does ring a bell.

[You Need A Thneed]

I'm pretty sure this is the end of negotiations with the Tsuu Tina - for good.

I think the next order of business is to figure how much it would cost to go over/under the weaselhead, and to expropriate the required properties for interchanges.

Can they fit a full systems interchange in at Glenmore/37th street without going on reserve land?

[mersar]

Probably not, at least without shifting it north and east a bit. There was also concern voiced at the west calgary ring road open house (which didn't deal with this area specifically) that they may need a small sliver of reserve land along highway 8 as well.

[Stang]

Originally Posted by WeavedWeb

Wasn't the casino approved by the province on the understanding that an agreement would be reached to build the ring road through the lands? Is there any recourse at all now that they didn't keep their end of the deal?

I don't know the specifics regarding the casino arrangements, but I have heard the city reminding (to put it nicely) the Tsuu T'ina nation that their "legal" access point is at Anderson Road. I believe that the city isn't obligated to provide a connection anywhere else.

This could have an impact on the casino, for sure.

The Tsuu T'ina people obviously have the right to make this decision, and they have. But I honestly feel that they have passed up on a great opportunity that probably won't ever come around again.

[WeavedWeb]

I really don't think the bridge/tunnel option over the weaselhead will prevail. There is too much opposition from the immediately affected communities and a lack of space. Mass expropriation would be difficult as well, seen as how the expropriation would happen next to vast corridors of empty land (albeit out of the province's/city's jurisdiction, it just doesn't look right to tear up dozens of homes on the edge of the city to build a road). Jurisdictional space is obviously an issue, but seen as how physical space is not (as opposed to the case of the WLRT or Glenmore/Elbow overpass) expropriation would look bad and unnecessary. I think the only viable near-term option is to upgrade Anderson, 14 St., and 37 St. south of Fish Creek. (as well as planned improvements to Glenmore and 22X)

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by WeavedWeb

Wasn't the casino approved by the province on the understanding that an agreement would be reached to build the ring road through the lands? Is there any recourse at all now that they didn't keep their end of the deal?

I don't believe there was anything tied to the ring road when the casino gaming permit went through.

edit: I should also mention that the province has granted casino licences to other first nations (stoney, enoch) with no demands for ring-road land transfer.

[Wooster]

Here's an idea, don't build it at all. Are auto movements so great between the extreme SW to the western part of the city to justify $1.5B in expenditure, possible mass expropriation, or disruption to the Weaslehead?

Could an alternative be to improve Glenmore and 14th street and perhaps introduce a portion of the 'ring' lrt network connecting MRC to Chinook? That would alleviate some of the traffic congestion.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

I'm pretty sure this is the end of negotiations with the Tsuu Tina - for good.

I think the next order of business is to figure how much it would cost to go over/under the weaselhead, and to expropriate the required properties for interchanges.

Can they fit a full systems interchange in at Glenmore/37th street without going on reserve land?

In total, for a 37th Street freeway to go through (based on Google Earth), about 125 houses and two townhouse complexes would be needed.

It would require the expropriation of at least 50 houses and two multi-family residential complexes in the SE corner of the interchange north of 54th Avenue. It would need to be a 4-level interchange to get all the ramps in (even though not a lot is needed to and from the north, since 37th there is a minor arterial).

Another 70 or so houses (those fronting 37th Street south of 54th Avenue) would need to be expropriated to avoid encroaching reserve land for the lanes themselves (you could probably fit 8 lanes in there), and about 5 more houses would need to be expropriated for a 66th Avenue diamond/SPUI interchange.

Ideally, the slums which may be demolished on the west side of 37th would be expropriated, but that is on reserve land.

No expropriation is necessary south of the Glenmore Reservoir, although that would only allow diamond interchanges at 90th Avenue and Southland Drive.

Access to the casino and other lands in the Weaselhead area would have to be either via 66th Avenue or Sarcee Trail. Grade separations at 45th Street (over Glenmore) and 54th Avenue (over 37th) would be possible too, but with no direct freeway access.

[SubwayRev]

Although I'm suprised they voted it down, I'm glad they did. What a terrible waste of money it would have been to pay so much to build so little. That money can be spent so many other ways.

I'm also of the opinion that after 50 years of trying to get this land, the provice and city should walk away, build up Glenmore, and if there isn't any acess to the casino...that's too damn bad.

I believe the City has already cut the reserve off from emergency services. The city will still respond to them, but only if there isn't anything else going on; reserve emergencies are always the lowest priority.

Originally Posted by freeweed

SURPRISE SURPRISE SURPRISE.

And yes, it's time to say "fuck you" to the people who think they can hold out indefinitely for those few extra dollars. If they don't want to play, fine, we'll take our money elsewhere. Seriously, they were getting an incredible deal, tons of money, much more land in exchange, and wonderful opportunities to improve their economic prospects. This "let's drag this on for years longer to see if we can't squeeze just a few more bucks out of the deal" is crap. It's been going on for what, 10 or 20 years now?

A half billion (or whatever the figure was) could expropriate one HELL of a lot of houses to run a major road through on 37th. Or something similar. The city should be outlining plan B first thing Monday morning. Let's see how quickly the band comes back to the bargaining table if the city walks away completely.

They have a right to say no to the offer, for whatever reason they wish. It is their land and no one else and they can do as they please.

[SmokWawelski]

They are entitled to say NO. So does the city to the access from 37th. Time to play hard ball, allow access to the reserve only at designated points, no freebies, 50 or more years this has gone on without an inch of progress, this is an absolute joke.....

[SmokWawelski]

Just to add.... better that they voted No. This way we won't have to put up with protest, barricades, demands from the first nations people sometime in the future...

Originally Posted by SmokWawelski

They are entitled to say NO. So does the city to the access from 37th. Time to play hard ball, allow access to the reserve only at designated points, no freebies, 50 or more years this has gone on without an inch of progress, this is an absolute joke.....

Sounds like a bullying tactic to me: "Do what I want and as I say or else...................."

Originally Posted by SmokWawelski

Just to add.... better that they voted No. This way we won't have to put up with protest, barricades, demands from the first nations people sometime in the future...

I hate to say this, but there will always be protests, barricades, and demands from the first nations people. This was their land and we did take it from them with force. We owe Native people bigtime for the injustices we've caused them whether we like it or not; it's the price we have to pay for taking away their land and a huge aspect of their cultural identity.

[ksnaden]

Originally Posted by Nigel

I hate to say this, but there will always be protests, barricades, and demands from the first nations people. This was their land and we did take it from them with force. We owe Native people bigtime for the injustices we've caused them whether we like it or not; it's the price we have to pay for taking away their land and a huge aspect of their cultural identity.

Do we have to continue compensating them until the end of time, or do you feel that after a certain period of time enough is enough?

[Dimension314]

Originally Posted by Nigel

Sounds like a bullying tactic to me: "Do what I want and as I say or else...................."

Bullying tactic? so your solution would be do everything they want while getting nothing in return?

Anyway, the best solution here is to probably just give them 50 million or something for a couple hundred meter sliver along 37st and build a bridge over the weaselhead. No homes would need to be expropriated. Added construction costs come from the remaining 450 million that wouldve gone to the band. Everyone ends up happy except the environmentalists.

Also, how does highway 22 run through their land, how was an agreement reached in that case?

[Stang]

Originally Posted by Nigel

I hate to say this, but there will always be protests, barricades, and demands from the first nations people. This was their land and we did take it from them with force. We owe Native people bigtime for the injustices we've caused them whether we like it or not; it's the price we have to pay for taking away their land and a huge aspect of their cultural identity.

While I don't disagree about past wrongs, they were presented with a very fair, lopsided even, offer for their land. If the figures on cfcn.ca are correct, they would have obtained 2000 hectares of land in exchange for 40. Plus 275 million that could have had many benefits. I don't think that they are being bullied either - this was no low-ball offer.

I'm certainly not angry that they voted the offer down - poor planning decades ago put the province/city in this situation. And I fully respect their right to do so. I'm just a little surprised, that's all. It is clearly more important to them than dollars, cents, and a land transfer.

Now here's some food for thought (or flamebait, potentially) . Let me stress that I don't endorse this scenario or think it will happen. But what about expropriation? Does the province have any legal right? If the province needs someone's farm, they can essentially obtain it legally, correct? Obviously a higher-than-market-value sum of money has to change hands.

I can only imagine the bad optics of doing such a thing, and we'd definitely see people chained to bulldozers and such (and rightfully so). It would probably go all the way to the UN as a human rights issue. But could it actually happen?

[mersar]

Originally Posted by Dimension314

Also, how does highway 22 run through their land, how was an agreement reached in that case?

From what I recall it was somewhat preexisting as a trail so its been grandfathered. I do seem to recall that when the province did the last round of major upgrades in the late 90's the band wasn't too in favour of some of the work.


And expropriation can't be done pretty much. Only the feds could try (I recall cases down east where they seized native lands for military uses, though not sure if anyone was compensated), and that won't happen here I guarantee

[koval95]

Originally Posted by Nigel

They have a right to say no to the offer, for whatever reason they wish. It is their land and no one else and they can do as they please.

ya but they didnt do anything good with their land for 40 years .I agree that its their land and they have the right to do anything they want with it, but who you are if you dont try to make your land better?make it prosper? Im not racsist but THEY ARE A BUNCH OF IDIOTS AND THEY FUCKED UP HARD by sayin no. Cant believe that!!!!!

Originally Posted by koval95

Im not racsist but THEY ARE A BUNCH OF IDIOTS AND THEY FUCKED UP HARD by sayin no.

Sounds like something you would hear on Family Guy. And maybe they don't want to develop that land? Maybe it has some sacred value to it that we don't understand or appreciate.

Development does not equal improvement in every scenario.