World Exchange Plaza

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

In a way, you are proving my point. It is only the construction of condos that is booming downtown. Obviously, this is the most profitable use of scarce downtown land at the present time. I am not saying this is a bad thing. You do say that office vacancies are up, which proves that the commercial sector cannot afford downtown space and likewise retail. Yes, the Rideau Centre is expanding but this project has been delayed by a number of years, while there are retail issues pretty well everywhere else downtown especially on Sparks Street as has been discussed at length.

Sorry, that's not how economics works.

If vacancies are going up, prices will come down. OR, if there REALLY is only a market for condos, then conversions would be happening. That's not happening.

More downtown condos did not cause this theatre to close, directly, indirectly or tangentially through any rational economic thinking.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by gjhall

Sorry, that's not how economics works.

If vacancies are going up, prices will come down. OR, if there REALLY is only a market for condos, then conversions would be happening. That's not happening.

More downtown condos did not cause this theatre to close, directly, indirectly or tangentially through any rational economic thinking.

It was said that this is taking place in other cities across the country as well. This is pointing out that economic factors are causing the theatre business to leave downtowns, while we are likewise seeing condos move in. Theatres are not finding downtown locations sufficiently profitable to pay premium rents in comparison to suburban locations. It also points out that theatres cannot pay rent that is competitive with other commercial uses. Although there may be higher vacancies downtown at the moment, I highly doubt that there has been a crash in rents otherwise a theatre chain would have renewed the lease. Obviously, the building owners are expecting a rebound in the economy for office space and therefore an expected long-term lease from a theatre chain would not offer any discount whatsoever.

My point was that the condo boom is driving up the value of downtown property in general and therefore marginal uses of that valuable property are being driven out. Unfortunately, theatres are now a marginal use and is a reflection of the high degree of competition in the entertainment industry. Not enough people are going to the cinema these days to pay the high downtown rents.

Yes, the relationship is indirect, however, the trend over the last 40 years is also clear. Every movie house downtown, except the Bytowne, has either been torn down and replaced with higher revenue generating buildings or repurposed to generate higher revenue. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the Somerset Theatre actually replaced by a condo building?

[acottawa]

Just a few thoughts:

1. There may yet be a theatre at World Exchange (probably a rainbow type second run theatre or an indie-type theatre) - there is a glut of downtown office space and the cost of converting windowless slanted space to something rentable may not be worth it and encourage the landlord to come down to Rainbow's price point.

2. A first run megaplex type theatre might work downtown, but there is probably too much uncertainty at the moment both locally (status of TD Place theatre, effect LRT will have) and in the industry overall.

3. The biggest obstacle remains that the inner suburbs are very easy to get to from downtown outside of the afternoon rush hour. Gloucester Centre Silvercity is 10ish minutes by transitway or car, South Keys cineplex is 15ish minutes by o-train or car. Even that big theatre on carling is pretty easy to get to. Gatineau theatres are pretty easy to get to as well.

4. Too bad NAC doesn't show movies when their stages are not otherwise in use.

[waterloowarrior]

I don't think condos are closing the downtown theatres. More customers should help business. Suburbanization is what helped lead to the downfall of many theatres in the first place. I think that the issue is that many of the theatres downtown in Ottawa and across North American either:

• had only 1-2 very large screens, which wasn't a workable business model (Somerset, Capitol Cinema) after the collapse of the roadshow system (1-2 movies on a screen for months at a time) and the rise of multiplexes.
• or were like World Exchange/Rideau Centre/Capital Square and were too small and dated-looking compared to the suburban megaplexes. People have big screens and sounds at home, so they want to be wowed when going to a theatre.

Can we get a new megaplex or multiplex downtown? I think so. But they need to be a bit more creative - for example Ryerson worked with AMC so that the theatres can double as classrooms http://www.ryerson.ca/news/media/General_Public/2008Archive/20080916_mr_amc/

Btw the site plan for the Rideau Centre expansion includes an expansion of the cinema. Maybe Landmark will locate there?

[Jim613]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

In reality, there are very few cinemas that are convenient to transit. Most of the large suburban complexes that have far superior theatres (IMAX etc.) are a fair walk from a transitway station or bus stop, often involving crossing a vast parking lot.

Been a while since I've seen a movie, but aren't SilverCity, South Keys and Centrum pretty much at Transit stops?

If crossing a "vast" parking lot is a deal breaker for you, then that's your call, but crossing a parking lot shouldn't be a barrier to anyone who is able-bodied.

Basing your decisions on door to door service is a little much

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Jim613

Been a while since I've seen a movie, but aren't SilverCity, South Keys and Centrum pretty much at Transit stops?

If crossing a "vast" parking lot is a deal breaker for you, then that's your call, but crossing a parking lot shouldn't be a barrier to anyone who is able-bodied.

Basing your decisions on door to door service is a little much

Crossing those vast parking lots is actually a barrier. How an experience feels actually matters. Ottawa developers are terribly at true transit-oriented development. Development Somewhere Near a Transit Station, which is what Blair, South Keys, and Centrum represent, is not the same thing.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Crossing those vast parking lots is actually a barrier. How an experience feels actually matters.

Quoted for truth. People don't often not go somewhere because of a parking lot per se, but the lack of protection from the elements, feeling of insecurity and general unpleasantness of the whole adventure make you think twice about, whether or not you can pinpoint these elements.

You're much more likely to go someplace on a whim if you feel that the whole experience (walk, transit, walk, movie and return) is positive than if you have to balance the benefit of a movie with the undesirability of everything else.

[Acajack]

If there is a large modern first-run movie complex built in downtown Ottawa, it should be somewhere in the vicinity of Rideau St. and not on the other side of the canal. That's where the main entertainment and nightlife district of the city is. Maybe on the site of one of those crappy businesses on Rideau east of the Rideau Centre. Group a couple of ugly and misused buildings together and tear them down.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If there is a large modern first-run movie complex built in downtown Ottawa, it should be somewhere in the vicinity of Rideau St. and not on the other side of the canal. That's where the main entertainment and nightlife district of the city is. Maybe on the site of one of those crappy businesses on Rideau east of the Rideau Centre. Group a couple of ugly and misused buildings together and tear them down.

For sure, the Rideau/Market area is the logical choice. I just wish someone would build some sort of an "anchor" attraction west of the CBD.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

For sure, the Rideau/Market area is the logical choice. I just wish someone would build some sort of an "anchor" attraction west of the CBD.

Library, cinema, grocery store, transit station among a few other things for the area.

[S-Man]

If anything, not enough condos were built in a timely manner to allow the theatre to continue operations.

I'm sure WEP would have drawn some of the hundreds of residents of the Tribeca complex who will be moving in over the next year, as well as Soho Lisgar. Had those projects (and others) gone up 5 years ago, who knows if things would have been different, but it couldn't have made the situation worse!

[c_speed3108]

There are more variables than simply how many condos or whatever get built.

World exchange was a very dated theatre with no hope of converting it to the modern styles (more screens. bigger screens, more steeply sloped seats, etc...)

This means it attracts less people at a lower price. All the while it's located in a high priced building.

I suspect a downtown theatre could certainly thrive, but it's not going to be an old one just because it happens to still be there.. It would need to be a larger modern style one. Most likely purpose built.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

There are more variables than simply how many condos or whatever get built.

World exchange was a very dated theatre with no hope of converting it to the modern styles (more screens. bigger screens, more steeply sloped seats, etc...)

This means it attracts less people at a lower price. All the while it's located in a high priced building.

I suspect a downtown theatre could certainly thrive, but it's not going to be an old one just because it happens to still be there.. It would need to be a larger modern style one. Most likely purpose built.

The problem is that a modern theatre complex will require a lot of space and a lot of space will be wasted in order to have sloping auditoriums. I just can't imagine that kind of space being available at a cost low enough to allow it to happen downtown.

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The problem is that a modern theatre complex will require a lot of space and a lot of space will be wasted in order to have sloping auditoriums. I just can't imagine that kind of space being available at a cost low enough to allow it to happen downtown.

I agree. I could maybe see something working, built under a larger building - be it a residential tower/office tower/hotel tower/whatever tower.

If we looks at something like the Mondrian on Bank street, 4 or 5 floors was used for public parking. Lower level portions of a large buildings (except street level) are not worth as much - particularly as everything gets taller. Could a theatre make more money than a parking garage - no idea the economics off the top of my head.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The problem is that a modern theatre complex will require a lot of space and a lot of space will be wasted in order to have sloping auditoriums. I just can't imagine that kind of space being available at a cost low enough to allow it to happen downtown.

If they can find space in the higher priced downtown Toronto market to build theatres, they can certainly find somewhere in downtown Ottawa.

The Lebreton area could be a candidate, maybe as part of a new entertainment district along the Aqueduct. Imagine a theatre complex straddling the LRT tracks with restaurants and cafes below next to the aqueduct just to the right of this rendering. It could be part of a mixed use development with high-rise offices or apartments above it.



basically putting something like this next to it:

[McC]

but maybe a little less tacky looking? ;-)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

If they can find space in the higher priced downtown Toronto market to build theatres, they can certainly find somewhere in downtown Ottawa.

I am always skeptical when I heard people say there isn't enough space for such and such a facility in downtown Ottawa. They found space for new NHL arenas in downtown Toronto and downtown Montreal. They find space to build new stuff in Manhattan all the time.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by McC

but maybe a little less tacky looking? ;-)

I knew I should have used the Vancouver example, but it doesn't seem as lively on street level:


Beneath a new hotel would be a great location.

[OTSkyline]

hmmm.... A newly renovated and attractive The National Hotel Complex anyone?

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

hmmm.... A newly renovated and attractive The National Hotel Complex anyone?

Yup, that Vancouver Scotiabank Theatre building would feel right at home on Lyon Street — one block over in front of the new Delta would be good, too.