Highway 417 Widening

[harls]

Why not make them work 24h/day and get it done sooner?

[yotajoe]

Originally Posted by harls

Why not make them work 24h/day and get it done sooner?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[harls]

Originally Posted by yotajoe

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yeah but votes!

[Richard Eade]

Yup. Throwing money at the project will definitely get the concrete to cure faster.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Yup. Throwing money at the project will definitely get the concrete to cure faster.

It doesn't take 8 weeks to get concrete to cure. THis project could have been a 2 week closure with better planning and round-the-clock construction. Instead, we are inconveniencing 140000 drivers daily in each direction. What other city would tolerate this???

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

It doesn't take 8 weeks to get concrete to cure. THis project could have been a 2 week closure with better planning and round-the-clock construction. Instead, we are inconveniencing 140000 drivers daily in each direction. What other city would tolerate this???

Well, sometimes Toronto closes DVP for runs.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Well, sometimes Toronto closes DVP for runs.

Agreed. And Toronto is not a city I would want to emulate in terms of traffic management. I've been there when they close the Gardiner for a weekend on short notice and it's a nightmare. I'd take our little lane diversion any day! This is really small potatoes, but it goes to show 1) How bad our city/province is at project management 2) How little respect they have for people in our city and 3) How bad their communication is with the public. It took days for them to explain to the public what was even going on and still some people think this is "LRT Phase 2" construction and that there is a train going under the highway or something

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by Catenary

On the EB, the Pinecrest SB to 417 EB lane ramp was closed to allow the acceleration lane to be reallocated as a shifted through lane. To do that WB, you would have to close the ramp from the Transitway which would have a significant impact to transit operations. They did re-stripe at Pinecrest though - there are still 3 lanes past the lane closure, where before there were two.

Do you mean the Queensway station on-ramp? The one that's been taken over by regular traffic? It's connected to the Pinecrest exit ramp via a very long extra lane. What I'm arguing for is to drastically shorten the on-ramp to the bare minimum, then shift the through-lanes. I know it's complicated and requires re-painting everything (perhaps) but unacceptable to just have traffic backed up all the way through downtown every single day just for a goddam sign. Government bureaucracy sprinkled with project managers and a dash of 'design by committee' in Toronto is a nightmare for no reason.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

It doesn't take 8 weeks to get concrete to cure. THis project could have been a 2 week closure with better planning and round-the-clock construction. Instead, we are inconveniencing 140000 drivers daily in each direction. What other city would tolerate this???

They're currently assembling a drill rig in the closure, so this is going to be a significant footing. That isn't really a surprise considering the wind loads on a highway sign, but still not just a case of knocking out the median and pouring a block of concrete like you might for a streetlight.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Do you mean the Queensway station on-ramp? The one that's been taken over by regular traffic? It's connected to the Pinecrest exit ramp via a very long extra lane. What I'm arguing for is to drastically shorten the on-ramp to the bare minimum, then shift the through-lanes. I know it's complicated and requires re-painting everything (perhaps) but unacceptable to just have traffic backed up all the way through downtown every single day just for a goddam sign. Government bureaucracy sprinkled with project managers and a dash of 'design by committee' in Toronto is a nightmare for no reason.

Yes, the ramp from Queensway station. While it doesn't have many buses on the upper level, it serves the Transitway and buses from downtown to Bayshore. Having loaded buses merge onto a highway with a "bare minimum" on-ramp is probably a non-starter.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

It doesn't take 8 weeks to get concrete to cure. THis project could have been a 2 week closure with better planning and round-the-clock construction. Instead, we are inconveniencing 140000 drivers daily in each direction. What other city would tolerate this???

You are correct, AuxTown. Concrete reaches full rated strength at about 4 weeks (if properly cured). However, there is also an amount of time required to prepare for the concrete pour. And then the concrete might be installed in stages, requiring previously poured concrete to cure for a week, or so, before the next is poured. I don’t know the sequence of this construction, but companies seldom book workers and equipment for much longer than needed.

As I understand it, LRT Stage 2 construction necessitated the moving of an MTO-owned sign over the 417. The existing sign spanned the west-bound lanes, just west of where the new Queensview Station pedestrian overpass is built. Since the new bridge would have hidden the sign from view, the sign had to be moved east of the bridge. (I think that the sign could have been added to the side of the pedestrian bridge – but OC Transpo doesn’t seem to want to share its assets.) The deal reached, apparently, was that the LRT Stage 2 construction would be responsible for moving the sign east of the bridge. Which is why this is being called work for LRT Stage 2.

I don’t know, but I suspect that the MTO is getting a new electronic sign installed – since that seems to be its current preference. If that is the case, there may be a lot more prep-work required before the footing can be poured. And, of course, the median wall will need to be reinstated once the footing work is suitably advanced.

I think that it is telling that, even throwing money at the problem so that work hours can be extended into the night, they were only able to shorten the time by a few weeks. This is likely only speeding up the prep-work and clean-up, not getting the concrete to cure faster. Thus, we still have more than a month of this disruption to endure.

Something that I have learned through life is ‘It almost always takes longer.’

[AuxTown]

Thanks for the construction insights, guys. I guess the real frustration came from the first 8 days with lane shifting/closures with zero workers or machines on site. Clearly, they mistimed the closure. Now that there is drilling and other work on site it seems slightly more reasonable.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

As I understand it, LRT Stage 2 construction necessitated the moving of an MTO-owned sign over the 417. The existing sign spanned the west-bound lanes, just west of where the new Queensview Station pedestrian overpass is built. Since the new bridge would have hidden the sign from view, the sign had to be moved east of the bridge. (I think that the sign could have been added to the side of the pedestrian bridge – but OC Transpo doesn’t seem to want to share its assets.) The deal reached, apparently, was that the LRT Stage 2 construction would be responsible for moving the sign east of the bridge. Which is why this is being called work for LRT Stage 2.

I don’t know, but I suspect that the MTO is getting a new electronic sign installed – since that seems to be its current preference. If that is the case, there may be a lot more prep-work required before the footing can be poured. And, of course, the median wall will need to be reinstated once the footing work is suitably advanced.

There were actually two overhead signs removed from 417 WB approaching Pinecrest - one advance sign back near the ped bridge, and another right at the exit to guide you into the correct lane:

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.3514875,..._ep=EgoyMDI2MDUyNi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Since the exit got stretched back a bit to the east for the LRT, the sign and foundation need to be moved east as well, which is why this is LRT related work. The other advance sign was just west of the new bridge and may also require a new foundation.

I highly doubt that this is a digital sign - fixed signage is still used for navigation and wayfinding.

[Richard Eade]

Ah. Thanks for the extra info. I appreciate it.