Ottawa's Byward Market

[Aylmer]

Parking right in front of your desired store does indeed happen, same as winning the 50/50 at the church bazaar happens. But just because it happens doesn't make it a great investment strategy.

A business that relies principally on the 2 customers per hour the one prime parking spot out front might yield is a business that is either extremely high end (in which case the customer can afford a dollar for the privilege) or going out of business soon.

What I think is really underestimated is, ironically, how shitty it is to have the tantalizing possibility of winning the parking lottery dangled in front of your face, but to lose it 99% of the time because of a mismatch between the supply and demand.

This is why parking at Costco sucks - everyone jostles for the prime spot by the door on the hope that "maybe I'll be the lucky one!" and then spends a quarter hour in stop-and-go parking lot traffic with every other sucker. Meanwhile, if you park at the edge, you can park and walk in in five minutes and experience zero frustration.

Similarly for the Market, what sucks more than anything is that when you get into your car to visit Bottega, you don't know if you'll find parking in 10 seconds or in 10 minutes. You don't know if you'll be the lucky winner of the free spot or if you'll have to pay at the garage. 99% of people will have a bad experience in order for 1% to have a good one.
Imagine if you had a restaurant where 99% of the time, you get a terrible-tasting dish that takes forever to come out and may either be free or $30. How often would you feel like eating there for the 1% chance?

It's much better if 100% of people have a reliable, predictable experience.

My suggestion: I'd get rid of the lottery and use pricing to make sure that parking is a dependable experience. I'd price the on-street spots much higher than the garage spots, so that for those who really want it, there's always a spot available on the block. I'd price the garages lower than street parking, but high enough that space is reliably available for anyone who's looking.

Now, instead of visiting the Market being a gamble, you know before you leave the house how it's going to be; if you really want the prime spot, it'll be available for you; if you want cheaper parking, it'll be available for you. No more guessing, no more gambling. There may not be any amazing parking experiences, but there are also no terrible ones: You know what you're getting every time.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

In fact this happens a lot. I live in the market and have done the same at the Fish shop on the way home and watched other customers do the same. I wouldn't have stopped if there was no parking. Businesses in fact do know there customers.

That said it's not a second rate main street if it's going to be an attraction it needs to be pedestrianized and animated. Say let the fish shop set up a patio for free and sell fish and chips etc. The patios do well but let's encourage more and not always need cost recovery for lost parking when it creates an atmosphere worth visiting.

Highly doubt there is a free spot waiting for you there at evening peak. What do you do 90% of time when there is none? Circle blocks? Drive home? Seems kinda silly on your part if you ask me.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Parking right in front of your desired store does indeed happen, same as winning the 50/50 at the church bazaar happens. But just because it happens doesn't make it a great investment strategy.

A business that relies principally on the 2 customers per hour the one prime parking spot out front might yield is a business that is either extremely high end (in which case the customer can afford a dollar for the privilege) or going out of business soon.

What I think is really underestimated is, ironically, how shitty it is to have the tantalizing possibility of winning the parking lottery dangled in front of your face, but to lose it 99% of the time because of a mismatch between the supply and demand.

This is why parking at Costco sucks - everyone jostles for the prime spot by the door on the hope that "maybe I'll be the lucky one!" and then spends a quarter hour in stop-and-go parking lot traffic with every other sucker. Meanwhile, if you park at the edge, you can park and walk in in five minutes and experience zero frustration.

Similarly for the Market, what sucks more than anything is that when you get into your car to visit Bottega, you don't know if you'll find parking in 10 seconds or in 10 minutes. You don't know if you'll be the lucky winner of the free spot or if you'll have to pay at the garage. 99% of people will have a bad experience in order for 1% to have a good one.
Imagine if you had a restaurant where 99% of the time, you get a terrible-tasting dish that takes forever to come out and may either be free or $30. How often would you feel like eating there for the 1% chance?

It's much better if 100% of people have a reliable, predictable experience.

My suggestion: I'd get rid of the lottery and use pricing to make sure that parking is a dependable experience. I'd price the on-street spots much higher than the garage spots, so that for those who really want it, there's always a spot available on the block. I'd price the garages lower than street parking, but high enough that space is reliably available for anyone who's looking.

Now, instead of visiting the Market being a gamble, you know before you leave the house how it's going to be; if you really want the prime spot, it'll be available for you; if you want cheaper parking, it'll be available for you. No more guessing, no more gambling. There may not be any amazing parking experiences, but there are also no terrible ones: You know what you're getting every time.

From what I’m reading from you; Aylmer, I’m guessing that you have no interest in improving the ByWard Market.

What your latest post suggests to me is that you are in favour of allowing cars to still drive on the streets within the ‘Market’, if they are willing to pay for that privilege. However, if someone else is willing to pay more, then that person gets to park closer to your destination – so you might still need to drive through the area to the parkade.

Adding cost reduces the number of people fighting for a particular spot, but it does not eliminate competition completely. (Unless the price is absolutely ridiculous.)

Effectively forcing the majority of drivers to go to a far-off (in their mind) parkade (say, 141 Clarence, since 70 Clarence will be gone or very restricted in spots); then walk (still through traffic) to where they want to buy one or two items; then walk back to their car (again, through traffic) will NOT encourage more people to go to the unique stores in the ByWard Market.

That wedge of aged Dutch Edam I was thinking of picking up from the House of Cheese just got, proportionally, much more expensive. I’ll skip the Edam and just dash into the Metro on my drive home, to pick up a block of Black Diamond Extra-Old Cheddar.

Perhaps your footer says it all, Aylmer. I don’t think that the majority of drivers NEED to have a spot EXACTLY in front of the store that they are going to. The idea is that there must be convenient parking. If you want people who are coming out of their way to visit a store, it has to be inviting for them. ‘Sticks’ don’t work if you are trying to attract customers. You need to use ‘Carrots’. “The beatings will continue until morale improves!” is not a good strategy in real-life.

PS A HUGE number of people buy lottery tickets. And even though they usually get nothing back, they are happy to buy a ticket next week, too. You should never underestimate the allure of anticipation.

[ponyboycurtis]

Placing a parking premium over garage spots isn't the worst idea I've heard. That Idigo garage has never had a car parked on the roof in all the times I've walked up there.

I wonder if there is an app out there somewhere that lets you see available spaces in garages? City hall has the red and green lights and the numbers that show which section has how many spots. Would be a no brainer as your driving in to check parking availability in the lots if we reduce street parking.

I'd love to see the York and William converted.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

Placing a parking premium over garage spots isn't the worst idea I've heard. That Idigo garage has never had a car parked on the roof in all the times I've walked up there.

I wonder if there is an app out there somewhere that lets you see available spaces in garages? City hall has the red and green lights and the numbers that show which section has how many spots. Would be a no brainer as your driving in to check parking availability in the lots if we reduce street parking.

I'd love to see the York and William converted.

While I love the idea of letting the market determine parking pricing, I think that an app is more appealing for the Byward Market. If people could easily see what parking is available, that would take away the uncertainty and avoid the constant circling for a few street spots. And frankly, despite claims to the contrary, at most times of day and night there is plenty of parking available in the Market or just adjacent.

That said, parking is secondary to making the Market a place people want to go. The idea that we just need to add more parking and it will all work better is an idea that has been debunked over and over. Partly because the reason people can't just "whip into" the Market isn't just a lack of parking. It's that the surrounding streets are congested, and expanding that infrastructure to the point where it provides quick car access would be hugely detrimental to the area. But mainly because the Market is never going to compete with suburban malls for convenience by car, and it is a big mistake to pretend it can.

Investment in good urban design, support for small business and supports to address social problems in the area are going to provide a much greater return than adding parking in the heart of the Market.

And for the record, a food hall is not the same as a mall food court. Something like Timeout Market in Montreal or Boston would be a huge draw (though I'd kind of like to see something like that downtown instead).

[kwoldtimer]

A food hall and a food court are two very different things, assuming the food hall is done right.

[Richard Eade]

Ah. Then I apologize. Can you explain the difference to me, please?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Ah. Then I apologize. Can you explain the difference to me, please?

Have you ever been to Time Out Market in Lisbon? If not, Google it. THAT is a food hall (and a huge tourist attraction).

[movebyleap]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Have you ever been to Time Out Market in Lisbon? If not, Google it. THAT is a food hall (and a huge tourist attraction).

Yes! I agree! The Time Out market in Lisbon is fabulous! Ottawa can only dream.....

[BGO]

Originally Posted by movebyleap

Yes! I agree! The Time Out market in Lisbon is fabulous! Ottawa can only dream.....

Always thought it would be a hit in Ottawa! More than in Montreal location for sure.

[Richard Eade]

OK. I Googled Time Out, Lisbon. It appears to be a large area of chairs and tables in the center, with a number of food vendors around the periphery. A person enters and walks around, checking out the food stalls until they decide to buy a meal. The food is served on a plate, which the customer takes to a table.

I will grant you that the food vendors do not appear to be the run-of-the-mill chains, but the concept is pure food court. Maybe just with better food.

To me, its like saying that Bistro Ristoro and Nando’s are NOT both restaurants.

Still confused, I turned to the all-knowing Google, and asked for Food Halls in Ottawa. It returned

• Queen Street Fare – considered the premier upscale food hall in downtown Ottawa;
• CF Rideau Centre Dining Hall – an elevated experience with high-quality, diverse, and often healthier options; and
• World Exchange Plaza Food Court – offering a selection of, largely independent, high-quality vendors.

I’m obviously missing the significance of the Time Out Market. Let’s look at its vendors. OK, they are not A&W or Thai Express. There is a taco place (advertising “Locally Sourced Mexi”), a pasta bar, a deep-fried fish and rice (instead of ‘chips’) place, a hotdog place (with octopus meat added to the dogs), the ‘Funky Chunky’ cookie place, a Gelato place (which is not unusual for Europe), ‘Crush Doughnuts’ (which don’t look any better than some of the donuts I had on ‘The Underground Donut Tour’ in Vancouver), and a seafood place (again, not unusual for Europe).

Maybe you are classifying the two differently because the Food Hall might be slower serving the food. Although not necessarily. The pictures of some of the stalls at the Lisbon Time Out Market appear to have almost a buffer look about them, with dozens of, say, desserts, waiting to be handed out. Others will take the time to cook some pasta for 6 minutes (until Al Dente) before scooping sauce from the kettle onto it. Of course, by that measure, having a guy make omelettes at the breakfast buffet means that it is no longer a buffet.

For me, an upscale food court is still a food court. I was recently in a “food Court” (Yes, it was called that) in Sydney, Australia. The lady made my Ciabatta sandwich for me by hand, and served it on a plate. There was also a Shawarma guy who made food to order, and his was a locally-owned, non-national, food outlet. Does that mean that I was actually in a Food Hall? Oh, it couldn’t have been because there was a Hungry Jack (Burger King to the rest of the world) over in the corner.

Google did offer one gem. A Food Hall will often have a bar and be licenced for alcohol consumption. Queen Street Fare serves alcohol – so it must be a real Food Hall. Dang, apparently, the St Laurent Mall Food Court has ‘The Thirst Responder’.

Maybe you had to be there.

[phil235]

Similarities for sure, but the difference is in quality of food and ambiance. A food hall tends to have bars, live music and is a destination for people. They are usually in an interesting building. Unlike a food court, which is a service for shoppers.

The Time Out concept is that it brings together a bunch of the very best restaurants in town in a scaled down version. The food comes quicker than in the restaurants, but it’s not fast food. The difference is evident in the popularity of food halls as destinations all over the world.

[urbanforest]

This is kind of like asking what’s the difference between Domino’s Pizza and Giulia. They are both restaurants. They both serve pizza. But one is a place that you get food from in a hurry, because it’s convenient. The other is somewhere that people specifically want to go to, to spend time with friends and enjoy a meal.


Here are a few photos of the Timeout Market in Lisbon that I took last fall. I like Queen St. Fare, but it’s not even close to the calibre of this place.

[sclement12]

Agreed, Time Out Markets are a big attraction in many major cities. I also visited the Lisbon one in the fall and loved this rare wine collector who was selling bottles dating back to the 17th century. Just browsing the collection was awesome.

The New York City one is located in an old warehouse in Brooklyn and has fantastic bites from some of the best NYC has to offer. You get to try some of the world's best food, all in one place.

A Time Out Market may not be your thing, but failing to see that it's a destination building in many major cities around the world is short-sighted.

That being said, if the City didn't execute it properly, and it was more like a food court, that'd be a really shitty outcome.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Highly doubt there is a free spot waiting for you there at evening peak. What do you do 90% of time when there is none? Circle blocks? Drive home? Seems kinda silly on your part if you ask me.

In the summer I drive home and walk back. The rest of the time there is almost always a free spot. If we really wanted to incentive that we could make it max 20 minute parking. As I said I still think there should be no parking on the actual market at least in summer when it really is a lottery and endless circling because people don't want to walk or park in a garage. The whole market should be patios which is the main attraction of the area not a few maple souvenirs and local garlic for $6.

[zzptichka]

Went past it today around 5, it's kinda sad tbh.

[rocketphish]

ByWard Market 'reset': The new price tag and why a deteriorating parking garage is driving the timeline
50-year-old Clarence Street garage in poor condition, city says

Guy Quenneville · CBC News
Posted: Feb 25, 2026 4:00 AM EST | Last Updated: February 25

The estimated cost of the latest plan for the ByWard Market has gone up by nearly $70 million since an earlier and largely unrealized version of the redevelopment scheme was approved by city council in 2021.

Mayor Mark Sutcliffe gave a preview of the new plan last week in what he called a "brief primer," but that seven-page handout, as well as Sutcliffe's accompanying speech to Ottawa's business community, was short on new details.

By contrast, the City of Ottawa staff report that dropped online the next day shed much more light on the city's hopes, potential timelines, and the fresh price tag for what's hoped to inject new life into the historic district troubled by what it calls "a convergence of challenges."

In particular, the city's update drives home how the deteriorating state of the 50-year-old mixed-use parking garage at 70 Clarence St. is a major factor shaping the city's approach to the market's redevelopment.

<more>

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/byward-market-ottawa-plan-garage-cost-improvement-9.7103764

[Richard Eade]

OK, Thanks to all who are trying to give me a sense of what a Food Hall is vrs. a Food Court. (Since I have not been to a true Food Hall.) It seems to be the level of quality of the restaurants and that most Food Halls are licenced for alcohol.

So, when the ByWard Market Building is transformed into this, it will be a food destination for people from all over the city and region.



I’m eager to try it out (in 5+ years). I am hoping that it can give me a true sense of what a Food Hall is like.

Is Queen Street Fare a regional destination? Or is it just somewhere that downtown office workers stop into to grab lunch?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Is Queen Street Fare a regional destination? Or is it just somewhere that downtown office workers stop into to grab lunch?

I'd argue Queen Street Fare is a mini Food Hall, not a cafeteria. They have evening events and live music sometimes, but maybe not as much as they had initially planned (opened in 2018, the pandemic was a huge blow).

[Richard Eade]

Would the Aberdeen Pavilion (Cattle Castle) make a good Food Hall? It is smaller than the one pictured in Lisboa, but it is a heritage building. It could add that 'something new' that would draw more people to Lansdowne.

It might not be wide enough to offer the stall (mini restaurant) space along the sides, though.