SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA: Transit/Transportation News

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by craigs

Are you old enough to remember those blue jitney cabs that served the Caltrain station in the olden days? I took those sometimes. Usually I took the bus.

Actually no! I just Googled it and I don't remember them at all! I wonder if I did see them and just dismissed them as being an airport shuttle or something. Never registered to me.

@Nouvellecosse, I'll also add that these days if you really want to lean into the tech bro look, you can also ride an electric scooter or hoverboard.

[johnsk]

Thank you I definitely agree with you and thanks for sharing your thoughts.

1. I personally lean more towards MUNI for Geary line since it can provide better headways and serve the city residents better. BART would not be as frequent, will have a few stops, and would be the most expensive option and take the longest to build. IMO, the only way BART would make sense is if it also provides a direct connection to SFO (and further south if BART ever gets extended) and potential Mission Bay/Dog Patch. TBH, not sure how useful a direct connection to East Bay would be in this case, which is what one of the options of Link 21.
I was thinking Monorail would still be under MUNI, just a different mode: more modern, grade separated, automated with up to 1 min headways, same benefits as subway but a lot cheaper, and a funner ride which could also draw tourists since it'd have an awesome view/rider experience. Think a more modern Seattle monorail with better views.

2. I agree, T should be the higher priority. Geary line would probably be split in 3-4 phases and built over decades. the ridership on T would grow dramatically if connected to Marina, although lets have longer platforms and maybe not as unnecessarily big/deep stations as central subway. There could even be a shuttle service from Presidio/Lucas Film studios to 4th/King or Mission Bay without going all the way to Sunnyvale to complement the existing T and provide better headways in the core part of the city.

3. It is definitely the most tricky one. Using the tracks on church st would make the project easier on the southern end, and light rail can be at grade on Webster. But North of Bush is where it gets tricky and might have to go under ground. But I agree, a Rapid/BRT bus service would make more sense and can be done sooner. The city really needs better North/South transit as it is currently overcrowded and takes so long. Other challenges, even with BRT line, would be that Fillmore corridor is too narrow and crowded, and the many steep hills also do not help.

Originally Posted by homebucket

^ Wow, sweet map! Definitely a lot of great ideas there.

1. I definitely agree with the Geary line being the next crucial point of emphasis for growth. IIRC it's one of the busiest bus lines in the country in terms of ridership, so conversion to grade separated rail makes sense. I think for me, the debate is mainly around whether or not it should be Muni light rail or BART heavy rail. Either way, I think it should be grade separated, most likely via subway. I think first phase should probably go down Geary and hook up with 19th Ave down to Stonestown. The Sunset line is also intriguing and useful but probably lower priority as a Phase II expansion. At grade light rail would be a nonstarter for me since we need more rapid transit, and at grade light rail isn't that.

2. Extension of T Line to North Beach and Fisherman's Wharf and the Marina is also definitely high up there on the priority list. I'd probably put that above the Phase II Outer Richmond-Outer Sunset line.

3. Not sure how feasible this one is. I'd probably do a Van Ness style BRT line here first down Webster and see how the ridership fares, or perhaps a 22R Fillmore Rapid. Webster is also only wider once you reach south of Bush.

4. Agree that conversion of Van Ness to a subway line is a logical next step for improvement.

5. This one is an interesting one that I haven't thought of before but it also makes a lot of sense to add a rapid transit connection from the Sunset directly to major employment and entertainment centers in Mission Bay. The City does definitely need more and faster grade separated east-west and north-south routes that don't require being stuck in traffic or going all the way downtown first.

6. Seems like a decent idea as well.

Overall, lots of interesting ideas and definitely a very cool map! Welcome to the forum, and please let me know your thoughts on my thoughts.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Somehow I never noticed how far the current Caltrain terminal is from the main part of the CBD. How do people commuting to downtown offices usually make that final leg currently? Not like it's an hour walk or anything but looks like it's a good 15-20 minutes depending on the part of the CBD one is going to.

Caltrain is a bit unusual in North America because of the volume of "reverse commuting". Lots of people living in SF but commuting to Silicon Valley. SV is very sprawled, so Caltrain has encouraged riders to bring their bikes for the last few miles. So a lot of riders will bike to 4th/King, get on a train to Palo Alto or Sunnyvale, and bike again to their office in some tech campus.

I was shocked the first time I saw it - I'm used to Metra in Chicago, Caltrain uses identical trains to Metra but with huge bike storage areas in each car. Neat concept, but of course it really works best for young able-bodied workers.

If you're doing a traditional commute up the Peninsula into SF, you can change to Muni T-Third tram at 4th/King to get closer to Market St office towers. There's also buses, taxi/rideshare, bikeshare, scooters, and walking. And of course you can change to BART at Millbrae for a direct ride to Embarcadero, but that's a lot slower.

[Busy Bee]

This is probably the most expensive option but I'd actually prefer Geary be both Muni and BART (stacked underground using cut-and-cover) with Muni functioning as more of a local and BART for express trips from outer Geary west of Route 1 and regional movement without requiring a Market St transfer. Muni would end at the end of Geary and BART would turn south down 19th, or a combination of Sunset Blvd and 19th depending on ease of build with a sweep under Pine Lake Park or Sloan Blvd and a turn back under either 19th or Junipero Serra based on ease of build to rejoin at Daly City. Another alternative would be a deep bore sweep under the Lowell High, Stonestown, SFSU vicinity before turning south on 19th.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

This is probably the most expensive option but I'd actually prefer Geary be both Muni and BART (stacked underground using cut-and-cover) with Muni functioning as more of a local and BART for express trips from outer Geary west of Route 1 and regional movement without requiring a Market St transfer. Muni would end at the end of Geary and BART would turn south down 19th, or a combination of Sunset Blvd and 19th depending on ease of build with a sweep under Pine Lake Park or Sloan Blvd and a turn back under either 19th or Junipero Serra based on ease of build to rejoin at Daly City. Another alternative would be a deep bore sweep under the Lowell High, Stonestown, SFSU vicinity before turning south on 19th.

This is actually a pretty good idea and the first time I've heard of it. It makes a lot of sense. As johnsk noted, Muni would be able to provide more frequent headways, smaller, but more stations with less distance in between, but BART would provide faster, more regional service (ie if someone wanted to get from Japantown or Inner Richmond to Stonestown/SFSU, both of which are prime for massive redevelopment, or Daly City quickly). I think a connection with this line to the existing Daly City station would also be most ideal.

[Busy Bee]

Conventional thinking with US agencies would say it would be double the cost, but I don't think it would. First of all a dual-mode Geary subway would by definition no longer be just a Geary Blvd project as the BART would be part of a much larger BART outer belt project and a 2nd Transbay Tube. The projects together would be a major capital investment to say the absolute least. I do believe it would be exceptionally ideal though. Under this scenario as I mentioned BART acts as an express, especially for outer Geary trips downtown, southward, and cross-bay; MUNI Metro acts as a Geary Blvd rail local with station spacing in the arena of 1/3 mile; and Muni bus acts as a Geary Blvd hyperlocal with traditional non-BRT stop spacing and service level distributing to nearest rail stations and traversing Geary length for riders wishing to stay on surface.

A few basic concepts:

1. Outer belt BART would be serviced by trains using a new second Transbay Tube. Specifically how and where that route enters downtown SF would need to be determined. Outer belt BART line would run under Geary before turning south either just west of Park Presidio Blvd to run below 19th Ave; OR run under Geary until the vicinity of 30th Ave before sweeping south in a deep bore likely under 36th Ave with a possible station location at Balboa.
   
   
2. Muni Metro would operate on the top level with BART below just as under Market. The Muni Metro subway would daylight just west of Masonic and run in the median all the way until roughly 43rd Ave in Outer Richmond. BART would continue underground until turning south for alternate routings of 19th Ave or Sunset Blvd. In downtown SF, Geary Muni Metro could potentially cross under Market and loop around or adjacent to Salesforce Transbay Terminal before returning to Geary. Montgomery BART station would also be served by this new line.
   
   
3. Joint Muni Metro and BART stations would be located at Union Square downtown and at Van Ness, Divisadero, Park Presidio Blvd. (or 25th Ave if Sunset Blvd route taken)
   
   
4. Possible BART stations at 25th Ave and/or 36th Ave/Balboa depending on whether Sunset Blvd or 19th Ave is chosen. BART station at Judah, positioned between Judah and Lincoln Way, would feature convenient northern station access from Lincoln Way and Golden Gate Park whether under Sunset or 19th Ave.
   
   Taraval St after that.
   
   A station either at or near Sloat Blvd or Ocean Ave in Merced Manor interchanging with (K) and (M) Muni Metro depending on Sunset or 19th routing. Finally a station servicing Parkmerced and SFSU at Holloway Ave either under 19th Ave or Junipero Serra depending on outer belt routing. Daly City station would likely need radical expansion or rebuilding to accomidate this expansion coming in from the north. Interlined south of Daly City.

[veep]

MUNI needs to go down 19th to complete the undergrounding of the M. It's basically two birds with one stone. The M and the 19th/Geary line would share tracks between Stonestown and DC BART.



BART is basically a complete system once the SJ tunnel is finished. There is no need for major expansion. Just add a few infill stations here and there and call it a day.

It's MUNI that needs rapid expansion. SF is in this weird twilight zone where getting around the geographically massive Bay Area is often quicker and more convenient than getting around tiny little SF.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by homebucket

I think it depends on which part of downtown their office is in, but options include transferring onto bus or light rail, as well as biking.

Originally Posted by ardecila

Caltrain is a bit unusual in North America because of the volume of "reverse commuting". Lots of people living in SF but commuting to Silicon Valley. SV is very sprawled, so Caltrain has encouraged riders to bring their bikes for the last few miles. So a lot of riders will bike to 4th/King, get on a train to Palo Alto or Sunnyvale, and bike again to their office in some tech campus.

I was shocked the first time I saw it - I'm used to Metra in Chicago, Caltrain uses identical trains to Metra but with huge bike storage areas in each car. Neat concept, but of course it really works best for young able-bodied workers.

If you're doing a traditional commute up the Peninsula into SF, you can change to Muni T-Third tram at 4th/King to get closer to Market St office towers. There's also buses, taxi/rideshare, bikeshare, scooters, and walking. And of course you can change to BART at Millbrae for a direct ride to Embarcadero, but that's a lot slower.

Yes I did kind of forget about the bi-directional nature of the line since most commuter rail in NA is very CBD centric. But it's great that there are last mile options for those doing more traditional commutes.