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-   -   CHCAGO | Thompson Center redevelopment | Jahn's MASTERPIECE will be saved!!!!!!!!!!! (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249335)

Steely Dan Dec 16, 2021 5:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegoatman (Post 9478528)
The way people are reacting you would think this is the Hagia Sophia Chicago's version of The Pantheon.

yes.

ski_steve Dec 16, 2021 6:03 PM

Glad this is being saved, too bad about losing the colored panels. I see this ultimately ending in one of two ways. 1- Torn down in ~20 years because it lost its historical significance. 2- Restored to original/current condition.

Chicago_Forever Dec 16, 2021 6:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicubs111 (Post 9478502)
Please tell what parking garages are the size of a full block like Thompson center in the central loop? A supertall in the loop is gonna need a very large lot considering since Chicago doesn't do tall and thin... there are maybe 2 lots . Outside the loop fringes and south loop are not what im talking about.

The idea that you need a full city block to build a supertall is yours and yours only. No one is saying Chicago is going to be building pencil thin Supertalls but it doesn't have to. The Sears Tower is not even on a full city block. Also, just immediately north and west of 181 W Madison are two hulking parking garages that can each easily support a supertall. As a matter of fact, I believe the site to the west is where the 2000ft Miglin-Beitler Sky Needle was proposed back in the 90s. Then you have the large garage directly east of Sears and another farther south. There's at least 2-3 more of these huge garages circling the Loop. Also, while not technically the Loop, there's still that huge lot (2 lots?) in the West Loop, north of Presidential Towers that's begging for a supertall.

Oh, and you yourself a few posts ago said the new trend will be smaller floor plates and higher ceilings heights. If this does indeed become the new trend, and with these garages being the only real opportunities for redevelopment in the loop, and with cost of land in the central loop likely to be more expansive in the future, I can't imagine every one of these garages will be torn down to be replaced with 50 storey boxes.

Kngkyle Dec 16, 2021 7:00 PM

Can someone fix the thread title? It's gone on long enough.....

MAC123 Dec 16, 2021 7:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicubs111 (Post 9478502)
A supertall in the loop is gonna need a very large lot considering since Chicago doesn't do tall and thin...

You're mistaken. "Chicago" or more specifically, the developers building these buildings, will do tall and thin. And they'll do bulky and fat. And they'll do anything in between, as long as it fits the site and the current conditions they find themselves in.

left of center Dec 16, 2021 7:32 PM

Any way to add this thread to the Chicago Projects and Construction board? I keep forgetting about it because it isn't on my SSP "landing page" :)

Toasty Joe Dec 16, 2021 8:06 PM

I agree this is a decent way to kick the bucket down the road, wait for the area to become more of a nightlife hub, and have other proposals/developments come to life & build momentum around the Loop. I just don't want to be 60 by the time we see supertalls in the Loop filling the gap between Sears and 400 N Wabash. Or worse: get mediocre 50-story glass boxes that will be there for 70+ years.

the urban politician Dec 16, 2021 8:22 PM

Glad that the State is going this route. :tup:

chicubs111 Dec 16, 2021 8:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicago_Forever (Post 9478652)
The idea that you need a full city block to build a supertall is yours and yours only. No one is saying Chicago is going to be building pencil thin Supertalls but it doesn't have to. The Sears Tower is not even on a full city block. Also, just immediately north and west of 181 W Madison are two hulking parking garages that can each easily support a supertall. As a matter of fact, I believe the site to the west is where the 2000ft Miglin-Beitler Sky Needle was proposed back in the 90s. Then you have the large garage directly east of Sears and another farther south. There's at least 2-3 more of these huge garages circling the Loop. Also, while not technically the Loop, there's still that huge lot (2 lots?) in the West Loop, north of Presidential Towers that's begging for a supertall.

Oh, and you yourself a few posts ago said the new trend will be smaller floor plates and higher ceilings heights. If this does indeed become the new trend, and with these garages being the only real opportunities for redevelopment in the loop, and with cost of land in the central loop likely to be more expansive in the future, I can't imagine every one of these garages will be torn down to be replaced with 50 storey boxes.

Yea sears takes a full block..doesn't mean the physical building will completely fill the whole block just need a sizeable lot more than half a block. Skyneedle was a super thin office building proposal for its height and it was at the spot of 181 west madison, dont know if that small of floor plate would work even with this hybrid work environment... The trend will be hopefully taller on average though but a supertall straight office building will be tough to come by at those locations you mentioned from a tenant and economics standpoint... The Thompson center was unique location being near theatre district, close state street, and riverwalk separate's its from those other mentioned spots for a mixed use super tall. It could of been the catalyst for that night life/dining/theatre hub you spoke about to liven up that area even more.

ardecila Dec 16, 2021 8:50 PM

You're making a lot of assumptions in one post.
-IF office demand returns after Covid
-IF corporations will pay top dollar to be in the central Loop again after 2 decades of momentum pushing north or west
-IF corporations continue to value large floorplates
etc etc.

There's no reason to reject a viable plan for an albatross building because something bigger might come down the road sometime in the future if all the planets align. What are we supposed to do in the meantime, tear it down and live with an empty block for the next decade like Block 37 on a hunch? Sorry CTA riders, here are some rickety wooden staircases for you to use for the next decade. Sorry Pedway users, we just took out half the network. I promise, the sacrifice will be worth it when we have another 1000'+ building that you can look at from the planetarium!

The state literally threw open the door to any and all developers to submit proposals and only 2 serious proposals came out of it. I much prefer to trust the judgment of professional developers over this kind of wishful thinking. I haven't seen the details of Bob Dunn's proposal, we can debate the merits of that plan versus Reschke's but we can't debate a wild hypothetical.

sentinel Dec 16, 2021 9:22 PM

Wait, why is the selling price so low?

Mr Downtown Dec 17, 2021 12:38 AM

Some of you are new around here, so here’s my periodic reminder to fanboys that skyscrapers have to make economic sense. In the US, we don’t build them to stroke potentates’ egos. We build them to make the maximum profit for investors, many of whom are real go-for-broke wild-eyed gamblers like New York Life Insurance and California Public Employees Retirement System.

There’s an obvious tradeoff between height and elevatoring requirements. The higher you go, the more elevators you need—and the more floorplate they occupy. A supertall on a 6000-sq-ft building site will give you four corner offices on each floor and not much more. But you'll have to ask $80/ft because the building was so damned expensive to build and run.

Less obvious are two other tradeoffs: cost of construction (taller buildings require specialized concrete and other things) and time to occupancy. A developer doesn’t want a construction loan hanging over them for several years; they want to get a couple of big anchor tenants signed, build a building, and have them paying rent within two years. Though you can get an occupancy permit for part of the building while construction continues above, there are limits.

The “sweet spot” for all these factors coming together for maximum profitability is roughly 50 floors for office buildings in downtown Chicago, and around 35-40 floors for residential. Manhattan can go taller, at least for residential, because of more rich people but mostly because of overseas investor-owners who may never visit the site but see condos there as a no-lose place to park their money. Chicago doesn't enjoy that reputation.

F1 Tommy Dec 17, 2021 1:14 AM

Pritzker continues to surprise me, this is a great save . He has done alot to help Illinois even if I don't like the guys politics. Better than the last one for sure.

Busy Bee Dec 17, 2021 1:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicago_Forever (Post 9478652)
The idea that you need a full city block to build a supertall is yours and yours only. No one is saying Chicago is going to be building pencil thin Supertalls but it doesn't have to. The Sears Tower is not even on a full city block. Also, just immediately north and west of 181 W Madison are two hulking parking garages that can each easily support a supertall. As a matter of fact, I believe the site to the west is where the 2000ft Miglin-Beitler Sky Needle was proposed back in the 90s. Then you have the large garage directly east of Sears and another farther south. There's at least 2-3 more of these huge garages circling the Loop. Also, while not technically the Loop, there's still that huge lot (2 lots?) in the West Loop, north of Presidential Towers that's begging for a supertall.

Oh, and you yourself a few posts ago said the new trend will be smaller floor plates and higher ceilings heights. If this does indeed become the new trend, and with these garages being the only real opportunities for redevelopment in the loop, and with cost of land in the central loop likely to be more expansive in the future, I can't imagine every one of these garages will be torn down to be replaced with 50 storey boxes.



Besides the Renaissance Hotel at 1 Wacker which is a preposterously underutilized lot, two of my favorite possible 1,000'+ tower sites are the garage at Wabash and Randolph and Harold Washington College one block north, which is just a horrible irredeemable building begging to be turned to dust.

gandalf612 Dec 17, 2021 5:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sentinel (Post 9478865)
Wait, why is the selling price so low?

Because it's an incredibly difficult project to get right. Due to Jahn complete incompetence it will cost them $280 million just to fix his idiotic mistakes and make the building habitable. For reference, Trump Tower cost $850 million to build. So literally a third of the cost of a supernal to not gain any more leasable space. But tearing it down would also be incredibly complex and expensive because you'd have to buy out the master lease on the food court, AND keep the busiest, multilevel CTA station running during demolition and construction of whatever you'd want to build there.

Toasty Joe Dec 17, 2021 5:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gandalf612 (Post 9479327)
Due to Jahn complete incompetence it will cost them $280 million just to fix his idiotic mistakes and make the building habitable.

pretty sure he designed double glazing and other features to better withstand the elements/ test of time, the developer just cheaped out? but yeah this building never seemed to want to be the most practical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gandalf612 (Post 9479327)
For reference, Trump Tower cost $850 million to build. So literally a third of the cost of a supernal to not gain any more leasable space. But tearing it down would also be incredibly complex and expensive because you'd have to buy out the master lease on the food court, AND keep the busiest, multilevel CTA station running during demolition and construction of whatever you'd want to build there.

$1.2B in today's dollars. and idiotic yes but 400 N Wabash was not above an active train station (the busiest, as you mention) and don't count me shocked if it turns out that specific developer cut corners in one way or another.

DePaul Bunyan Dec 17, 2021 6:15 AM

This is unfortunate and a wasted opportunity. The site is the most transit-friendly in the city and is begging for a supertall. Plus the state has counted the sale of the property towards the budget for the last couple of years. Buildings are meant for people to live and work, not admired by urbanists and architecture hipsters. It should have never been built and the state should have gotten out from under this albatross a long time ago. Now they're going to get roped into contributing towards the redevelopment of a flawed design. Illinois is bordering on insolvency. Vanity projects won't help.

gandalf612 Dec 17, 2021 7:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toasty Joe (Post 9479340)
pretty sure he designed double glazing and other features to better withstand the elements/ test of time, the developer just cheaped out? but yeah this building never seemed to want to be the most practical.

The glazing I'll give you but pretty his original design still had an enclosed atrium which still would've required heating and cooling 12 floors worth (or however tall this PoS is) of air

Kenmore Dec 17, 2021 11:30 AM

nice get a win once in a while

harryc Dec 17, 2021 12:00 PM

https://live.staticflickr.com/7861/3...20e90c3d_b.jpg

Always loved the truck elevators -


My hope is that the transit tie in, and existing public space with it's history of use will be leveraged in any new development, not eliminated.


https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_...100_W_Randolph

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 9479165)
Besides the Renaissance Hotel at 1 Wacker which is a preposterously underutilized lot, two of my favorite possible 1,000'+ tower sites are the garage at Wabash and Randolph and Harold Washington College one block north, which is just a horrible irredeemable building begging to be turned to dust.

You are too kind - that hotel is an active eye sore. Original plans had been to build a twin to the Quaker (ABA) building next door. Now that RPM has effectively cut the river walk on the N side of the river......


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