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emathias Feb 12, 2020 11:28 PM

I noticed that Crain's used two different renderings of "The 78" on two different pages that talked about it. Anyone know which one is more recent?

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/crains-daily-gist/crains-daily-gist-podcast-game-changer-chicago-tech?utm_source=editorial-promos&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20200212&utm_content=hero-image

and

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/commercial-real-estate/78-lands-big-tenant-draw-dpi

lakeshoredrive Feb 13, 2020 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emathias (Post 8829486)
There is literally a Red Line subway station at Roosevelt, and an elevated Green and Orange Line station. You might want to wander south of Congress occasionally.

LOL I live on Polk, a few blocks away from Roosevelt :rolleyes:

People would still have to walk up the bridge from the station to get to the northern end of the 78. Not convenient especially for those with disabilities.

Handro Feb 13, 2020 2:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakeshoredrive (Post 8829529)
LOL I live on Polk, a few blocks away from Roosevelt :rolleyes:

People would still have to walk up the bridge from the station to get to the northern end of the 78. Not convenient especially for those with disabilities.

Its like a 4-5 minute walk and a very slight elevation... I think flatness has spoiled us Chicagoans a little bit!

Mr Downtown Feb 13, 2020 4:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakeshoredrive (Post 8829471)
Wouldn't it make sense to have another subway station near roosevelt road to have access to the northern part of the 78

For whatever reason, North American cities nearly always build their rapid transit stations immediately adjacent to the rapid transit tracks. They could certainly be much quieter for the waiting passengers if they didn't insist on that.

emathias Feb 13, 2020 2:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakeshoredrive (Post 8829529)
LOL I live on Polk, a few blocks away from Roosevelt :rolleyes:

People would still have to walk up the bridge from the station to get to the northern end of the 78. Not convenient especially for those with disabilities.

So you're advocating a single-station spur of, what, 1/4 mile?

I'm a huge transit advocate and recently made a post suggesting Chicago could economically justify nearly $30 billion in new transit construction, and I don't understand your suggestion.

SIGSEGV Feb 13, 2020 3:00 PM

I do think a downtown circulator brt or light rail would make sense (Navy Pier to merch Mart to train stations to Roosevelt to museum campus) would make sense and that would stop here, but the North end already has frequent bus service from the 12 and 18 for people too lazy or unable to walk.

Handro Feb 13, 2020 3:39 PM

The 78 lands a big tenant draw with DPI

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/comm...enant-draw-dpi

Quote:

DPI also could give the 78 an advantage over other sprawling megaprojects hunting for tenants. Those include Sterling Bay's Lincoln Yards campus between Lincoln Park and Bucktown and Tribune Media's River District proposal along the North Branch of the Chicago River.

The 500,000-square-foot DPI building slated to break ground before the end of this year will eventually be home to some 2,000 students, a pipeline of U of I talent in downtown Chicago eager to wade into the city's deep corporate pool. In a tight labor market—one marked by companies moving entire headquarters to gain an edge in recruiting and retaining top tech talent—the prospect of setting up shop next to a training hub for one of the country's top engineering schools is a big draw.

"If there is an opportunity for (companies) to connect with the university and go right to the source of highly educated professionals that have a technical background, they're more likely to look at that location as a destination for an office," said Brad Serot, a vice chairman at CBRE who represented tech giant Salesforce in its 500,000-square-foot lease at a namesake tower soon to rise at Wolf Point.

Serot foresees DPI legitimizing the 78 as an emerging neighborhood the way Google did the Fulton Market District.

"This will have a ripple effect of similar magnitude, where (prospective tenants) will focus on the neighborhood and look at it a little bit differently, whereas before it may have not been on the tour list," he said.

Bailey is counting on that interest. He said Related Midwest plans to break ground in the next 12 months on a 300,000-square-foot office building at Roosevelt and the Chicago River whether or not it has signed a tenant to anchor it. Within that same time window, Related aims to begin work on other parts of the first phase of the 78, including a mixed-use tower along Roosevelt with a gym, hotel and as many as 500 apartments; a series of four-story, 120,000-square-foot office buildings closer to the river, and a five-acre park.

Another 1 million-square-foot office building immediately north of the DPI building would be built if Related can land a tenant to anchor it...

Woah... I guess it went over my head that this is actually kicking off this year. I thought this was still a year or more away from seeiing any kind of ground breaking and we were still talking about this aspirationally; but there will be multiple projects underway by the end of this year (if all goes according to plan)? That's pretty amazing!

SamInTheLoop Feb 13, 2020 4:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown (Post 8829693)
For whatever reason, North American cities nearly always build their rapid transit stations immediately adjacent to the rapid transit tracks. They could certainly be much quieter for the waiting passengers if they didn't insist on that.


😂

It is a curiosity of transit planning.

ardecila Feb 14, 2020 7:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emathias (Post 8829371)
One of the articles said that the 15th Street subway station would "come later," but it's been approved and the DPI appears to be at the south end of the site, furthest from Roosevelt so is the article just misinformed? It doesn't make sense not to build the subway station at the same time as buildings on the south end of the project because otherwise it becomes difficult for workers to get there efficiently. Sure, there might be bus access, Divvy access, and it could be walked to, but workers are going to be happier if they're able to exit a station right next to their building instead of having to walk 15 minutes or wait for a bus. And isn't that part of what the TIF is explicitly for?

I'm guessing Related will do what other developers do and provide a shuttle bus or bus network to DPI, either to transit hubs at Roosevelt and Union/Ogilvie or to UIC campus for students. CTA may also adjust their routes to run along the new Wells Wentworth... could extend the 36 to the Cermak Chinatown station, or re-route the 24 and 62.

The Red Line station does NOT need to open at the same time as DPI, and given the complexities of planning an infill subway station on an existing and very busy rail line, I don't see that happening soon. I can't even think of another case where such a station was built, at least not in the last 75 years... there are a few cases where a future subway station was planned when the line was built, and the excavations done in advance... but cutting a new station into a blank stretch of subway tunnel? Not easy, especially when they may need to change the slope of the tracks in the tunnel AND support the Rock Island line and St Charles Air Line running directly above the construction site.

SamInTheLoop Feb 14, 2020 8:04 PM

^ This is an argument though (the significant complexities involved in planning and construction) for having the start of construction of the red line station to be part of phase 1. It's common sense to put that very substantial and critical public investment at the front end of this overall project. Given the time involved, there will certainly be multiple buildings (probably quite a few) up and running by the time the station would actually open.

I too hope it's a mistake in reporting that the station is planned as part of later phase. That defies logic.


I'm certainly excited about the DPI investment, and look forward to it. That stated, I don't get the 78 as a large scale office location (Related seems intent on moving forward with a very heavy office component in phase 1 - perhaps strategically to establish that before there's a significant NIMBY influence....but then again if the zoning is completely there, it may not be legally necessary - I don't know what's been written into the PD in terms of getting additional approvals for successive phases, etc - maybe that's not required at all - and it's more for just less of a long-sighted neighborhood/pr strategy), as having a future red line station and being a short bus ride or long walk away from the Roosevelt El station doesn't make this a logical location for a relatively dense concentration of several thousand office jobs. Is it a better location for it than Lincoln Yards for this? Yes, of course. But that's a low standard. Once again, this location overwhelmingly favors dense residential development.

I've been very puzzled as to why Riverline has not yet moved forward, and a second tower (if not a third) has yet to begin construction at Southbank. Perhaps this momentum building - quite a bit earlier than I thought it would, to be frank - at the 78 will light a fire under CMK and LendLease. One thing I noticed, and I could be wrong - someone please correct if so - is that CMK may have recently redesigned the Riverline website: https://www.riverlinechicago.com/ If true, they could have plans to get moving soon.

Bonsai Tree Feb 14, 2020 8:42 PM

^^ I mean the West Loop is a thing now, so the idea of having a separate business district outside of the Loop isn't that revolutionary. Plus, considering everything, the 78 isn't actually that enormous. Don't get me wrong, it's huge, but you could easily walk from the new redline station to the entire development in less than 10 minutes. I don't see why this can't work because of its density.

Handro Feb 14, 2020 8:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonsai Tree (Post 8831563)
^^ I mean the West Loop is a thing now, so the idea of having a separate business district outside of the Loop isn't that revolutionary. Plus, considering everything, the 78 isn't actually that enormous. Don't get me wrong, it's huge, but you could easily walk from the new redline station to the entire development in less than 10 minutes. I don't see why this can't work because of its density.

Yep. The single Morgan station spurred a development area larger and denser than this site, which will be served by two (Roosevelt and 15th) stations.

SamInTheLoop Feb 14, 2020 8:58 PM

^^ What I'm arguing is that it makes no sense from a planning perspective to have a large concentration of office jobs in an area that doesn't (and won't) have the transit infrastructure - when there is an area that is literally at the nexus of all transit in Chicago that has the capacity for 15-20 million+ additional sq ft of office, with a focal point being between the main commuter stations and the blue/red lines, and no need for train/bus transfers or shuttles (including through redevelopment of currently under-developed parcels). That's called poor planning, or just a complete lack of planning. It's wasteful, inefficient, and dumb. It's also the reason why I think (hope?) there is finally a growing movement for a new comprehensive land use plan for the city (hopefully one that actually has teeth, but this being Chicago, and planning takes a complete backseat to political considerations, I'll believe it when I see it!)

So many continue to confuse this argument with one stating that the market will not produce the demand for an inappropriately planned usage in a particular geography.

west-town-brad Feb 14, 2020 8:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonsai Tree (Post 8831563)
^^ I mean the West Loop is a thing now, so the idea of having a separate business district outside of the Loop isn't that revolutionary. Plus, considering everything, the 78 isn't actually that enormous. Don't get me wrong, it's huge, but you could easily walk from the new redline station to the entire development in less than 10 minutes. I don't see why this can't work because of its density.

the west loop is a separate business district from the loop? or an extension due to growth? same for river north and I would think in time the south loop and 78

SamInTheLoop Feb 14, 2020 9:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handro (Post 8831580)
Yep. The single Morgan station spurred a development area larger and denser than this site, which will be served by two (Roosevelt and 15th) stations.


And again, that area is being 'planned' wildly inappropriately for its transit infrastructure/likely near-to-mid term transit infrastructure (as huge, game-changing investments that would be necessary to truly move the needle are vanishingly unlikely to materialize).

Now, there are of course gradations of "makes little sense" for large scale office concentration, by location (having to do with a combination of extant transit infrastructure and proximity to the metro's transit nexus (Canal/Wacker/Franklin, etc). For example, although poor, Fulton Market is a better location for major office density then the 78, and the 78 is a much better location for major office density than Lincoln Yards.

Bonsai Tree Feb 14, 2020 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop (Post 8831594)
^^ What I'm arguing is that it makes no sense from a planning perspective to have a large concentration of office jobs in an area that doesn't (and won't) have the transit infrastructure - when there is an area that is literally at the nexus of all transit in Chicago that has the capacity for 15-20 million+ additional sq ft of office, with a focal point being between the main commuter stations and the blue/red lines, and no need for train/bus transfers or shuttles (including through redevelopment of currently under-developed parcels). That's called poor planning, or just a complete lack of planning. It's wasteful, inefficient, and dumb. It's also the reason why I think (hope?) there is finally a growing movement for a new comprehensive land use plan for the city (hopefully one that actually has teeth, but this being Chicago, and planning takes a complete backseat to political considerations, I'll believe it when I see it!)

So many continue to confuse this argument with one stating that the market will not produce the demand for an inappropriately planned usage in a particular geography.

Now I really don't understand what you're saying! CBD's are a thing of the past. Stop thinking that the loop is the god-given business-only district of this city. THAT is bad planning! As long as new business districts are created along transit lines (that conveniently run through the Loop) it's really not that hard to imagine. Plus, the more business districts we have, the more walkable the city can become, and the more mixed-use and livable it can be. If anything, the 78 is an example of fantastic mixed-use planning. A university, apartment buildings, fitness centers, transit areas, and plenty of parkland in one walkable distance. What's not to like? And, I think we've already argued that there is plenty of transit infrastructure in place to support these office jobs. As was stated before, 2 stations (1 new and Roosevelt) make this project completely feasible transit wise. Do you have property in the Loop that is losing value? Is that why you such a vendetta against business districts outside the Loop? I promise you, it's really not bad planning.

emathias Feb 15, 2020 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop (Post 8831607)
And again, that area is being 'planned' wildly inappropriately for its transit infrastructure/likely near-to-mid term transit infrastructure (as huge, game-changing investments that would be necessary to truly move the needle are vanishingly unlikely to materialize).

Now, there are of course gradations of "makes little sense" for large scale office concentration, by location (having to do with a combination of extant transit infrastructure and proximity to the metro's transit nexus (Canal/Wacker/Franklin, etc). For example, although poor, Fulton Market is a better location for major office density then the 78, and the 78 is a much better location for major office density than Lincoln Yards.

Are people really unfamiliar with this modern transit technology commonly called a "bus"?

In Chicago something like 2/3rds of all trips, including for commuting, are by bus. The Near West Side and West Loop have bus route service. The Morgan station makes for a nice anchor in the middle of an area with relatively less bus service than other downtown-adjacent areas, but even before that existed, most of the growth was an organic extension west along Lake Street, where the Clinton stop was useful. The Halsted bus also provided useful service as buildings got a little further west. And all along the north edge of Fulton Market, walking from the Grand bus stops was not, in any way, particularly difficult. Certainly much easier than walking from West Loop Metra stations to the East Loop or River North, yet thousands of people do that. Also, walking north from Madison covered the south edges of Fulton Market. And even walking from Ogilvie to Fulton or the West Loop west of Halsted. Walking from Ogilvie to where the Morgan station is now is the same distance as walking from Ogilvie to State/Lake or State/Monroe. And more than a few commuters do that daily. For city commuters, the types of companies that first started locating in the Fulton Market area tended to be younger, so a larger-than-normal portion likely rode their bikes or lived not too far away and walked. A good friend of mine bikes from essentially Melrose and Halsted in East Lakeview to Google's headquarters in Fulton Market, and he's not alone. That's a four-mile ride, and anyone else willing to make a ride of that length (which is likely 20-30 minutes most days), creates a huge pool of available workers for the area. And it's not just Millennials - I'm 46, but I walk to work most days from the north part of River North to Dearborn and Washington in the Loop, and another of my coworkers (in an office of 15 people) walks a mile into the Loop from the West Loop. For both of us, our commute almost exactly a mile, walking. So anyone who lives in the West Loop can easily walk to anywhere in the Fulton Market area as a commute.

So, could downtown function if all parts of downtown had transit like Fulton Market does, or especially if it were like Fulton Market pre-Morgan station? No, it couldn't. But fortunately not everywhere downtown has the same moderate transit density of Fulton Market. *Most* people aren't dumb enough to apply for jobs they don't want to do what's needed to commute to. Sure, there are people who do apply for and even accept jobs without considering the commute, but there are apparently also people who tried to eat Tide Pods, so there's that. But most people wouldn't eat Tide Pods, and most people will self-regulate their commutes.

The 78 needs the 15th St Red Line stop, but the CTA can extend the 22/Clark to 18th Street, or run more 24/Wentworth buses and/or route it up the Wells/Wentworth connector instead of up Clark once the W/W connector is done. People can reach a reasonable amount of the 78 from the 12/Roosevelt bus and the Roosevelt Red/Green/Orange station. The CTA may even eventually make an Orange Line station at 18th or Wentworth, helping serve the south end. And the 18th St bus could easily be extended east to Indiana to help pull people to the 78. And let's be real - Clark/15th is equidistant between the Roosevelt Red Line station and the north exit of the Cermak/Chinatown Red Line station, at .6 miles according to Google Maps - a 10-15 minute walk which, while not ideal (I frequently advocate for transit that places people closer than that to major destinations), but, again, is similar to people choosing to walk from the West Loop Metra stations to the East Loop, or people walking from Metra Electric stops in the East Loop to the near West Loop or much of the North Michigan Ave office corridor.

Is transit for the 78 optimal, even with a Red Line 15th St station? No. And I've pointed out the the City and the CTA have dropped the ball by not choosing to route the Orange Line north through the 78 to join the Loop at Wells/Vanburen instead of routing to the Green Line, because that would be a far better solution than only having the extra Red Line station.

As for Lincoln Yards, it is served by a Metra stop that enables commutes for much of the North Shore and NW suburbs and some north and northwest city neighborhoods. And the 73/Armitage bus serves it well and can have increased service. The CTA can resume a Clybourn bus - there used to be one as recently as the 1980s I think. Walking from North Ave to the southern parts of Lincoln Yards is less than a 10 minute walk. Walking from Ashland is doable for the western edges. The 606 will assist with cyclist commuters coming from the west. And the eastern portions of Lincoln Yards are even not that bad of a walk from Armitage Brown Line stop - less than a half mile (less than a ten minute) walk from Armitage Brown to Kingsbury and Cortland, and just over 10 minutes walking to Southport/Cortland. People who live in western Lincoln Park can easily walk to work, as can people in eastern Wicker Park/Bucktown.

Now, are either the 78 or Lincoln Yards excellent commutes for everyone in the entire Chicagoland Region? No. Especially not compared to the western portion of the Loop proper. However, not every office district needs to be. Either of them are more accessible to more people than nearly ANY suburban office park. So what, exactly, is the complaint?

ardecila Feb 15, 2020 6:21 PM

^ Well, CTA could do these things with bus routes and I think it's very likely that they will... but how long will that take? I have to say it is frustrating that the transportation planning process for all of these new developments is occurring behind closed doors. I haven't seen any mention of bus route changes to serve Lincoln Yards or the 78. The city keeps hinting at a transitway along the North Branch, but has not launched a public process to plan and fund it. Big flashy projects like new L stops command all the attention and the public debate (if any), but CTA itself has seemingly done very little to respond to all this downtown-adjacent growth with the bus routes and planning tools they have at their disposal.

For all the growth in Fulton Market, all CTA has done is open the Morgan station (which was really a CDOT project anyway)... no supplemental bus routes to better cover the area, no infrastructure investments like bus lanes or prepaid stations to allow the Halsted and Madison lines to work more effectively.

Granted, CTA is working in a realm of limited resources,... finite numbers of buses/drivers and a finite budget with which to pay them. Without an increased budget, adding service one place means taking it away from somewhere else, unless they can work with electeds and the community to find supplemental funding. The best we can really hope for is zero-cost changes like re-routes or route swaps that can bring in more ridership (the recent changes to the California buses being a good example of this).

That's why I'm hopeful The 78 can at least get some bus service, there is literally a route called 24 Wentworth, changing its route as Wentworth is expanded northward seems like a no-brainer, but it means the South Loopers who live along Clark in Dearborn Park I and II, AMLI, etc will have to walk a little further to buses and trains on State... and the frequency of the 24 is a joke since it only exists as an ADA-accessible backup to the south Red Line. Re-routing the 62 Archer bus makes more sense, either instead of or in addition to the 24, since the frequency and hours of service are decent, and its State St portion is already served by the 29 State and the Red Line, so nobody would lose anything. And it would connect The 78 jobs to housing opportunities on the southwest side. If they can find enough resources to briefly extend one of the North Side buses down Wentworth as well, either the 36 Clark or 37 Sedgwick, that would really create a transit trunk on Wentworth with 3 bus routes, frequent service and, IMO, totally obviate the need for a Red Line station in the first phase of development.

Going to Hong Kong was an eye-opener, there are countless highrise estates there that are as big or bigger then The 78, that are served only by buses. Usually it is not just a feeder to subway stations but real decent bus routes that connect to destinations across the city. Pretending like The 78 NEEDS a rail station to function is just snobbery. But - it takes a real planning process and hard infrastructure to enable buses to do this job.

kolchak Feb 16, 2020 5:18 PM

I imagine the 78, especially DPI, will be served by private (or at least U of I) shuttles a la McDonald's headquarters, Google, etc.

SIGSEGV Feb 17, 2020 12:18 AM

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/VB...=w1283-h962-no

From earlier today. I see a construction office and maybe some evidence of work on the right of way?


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