Here's one that puts it all together

http://www.elk-grove-village.il.us/O...ages/ohap5.jpg

On this map if you look close enough you can see the Elgin-O'Hare Expressway, The O'Hare Ring Road, and Terminals 4 (by Terminal 5) and Terminal 6 (on york rd).

Thank you K0512 and Mr. Mann. That did a lot toward clearing things up for me. I am a pilot based out of ORD and all the different names for all the different terminals even had me confused.

Mr Man or anyone else in the know...I am a bit confused by the O'Hare terminal plans. I thought the new western terminal would be terminal 7. Also are these plans, maps and renderings Mr Man has provided the current plan? I noticed that the first two pdf. files that Mr Man posted seemed old. The first on appeared to have been a terminal plan from before Sept. 11, 2001 and the second seemed to be last updated in 2004?

Its still maybe a year off, so any plans are preliminary. But the basics are the same. There will be a METRA station at the new Western Terminal since the tracks already exist. I say Terminal 6, but I guess they can call it whatever they want at the end of the day.

That road map from the Village of Des Plaines provides an acurate description of everything that's being planned.

So two new major highways
two new terminal buildings
two more runways
and a metra station at the western terminal/gateway

In merger news...

Crain's is reporting that United and Delta are in talks about a combination. The combined entity would be headquartered in Chicago and have its operations base (maintenance, etc) at Atlanta Hartsfield.

I this deal, Indianapolis is a net loser.. of UAL maintenance jobs..

On further reading, that's not necessarily true. Here's the quote:

"The exact financial details of the transaction being discussed are not clear. But the talks involve United being the name of the combined airlines, the headquarters staying in Chicago and Delta's Atlanta hub being an operational center for the two carriers, the official said. One possible scenario involves Delta CEO Richard Anderson being the chief of the combined airline, the official said."

The "an" may be key. This may just mean that the hubs will be Chicago, Atlanta and Denver, as United is currently in Chicago and Denver and Delta is in Atlanta. Or they may be moving everything to Atlanta. In any merger you have to justify the combination with cost savings to create synergy, so if they decide they don't need 3 hubs, or Delta has lots of excess capacity in Atlanta (which may be the case, because there's a lot more room there than around O'Hare), they may move some of UAL's ops to Atlanta. Or this may just mean that they won't be shutting down the Atlanta operation, which I'd never expect anyway.

Now they're completely denying that any merger talks have occurred.

Worth noting that the city is currently accepting bids for consulting on extensions to the airport transit system. Presumably this would include extensions on both ends, to the O'hare Transfer Metra and to the west terminals.

Oh hell yeah, this roadway expansion added to the modernization plan just gang rapes those two little pisshole suburbs of Bensinville and Elk Shit Village. I am in support of it for that reason alone. Icing on the cake would be all the lost tax revenue and legal fees from the O'hare expansion and roadway ROW forcing the two towns to disolve their governments and annex to Chicago.

Folks, that rendering is old. Proposed terminal 4, not shown on the map, would be directly adjacent to terminal 3 (it would be where the current infrastructure-building is located), and terminal 6 directly to the east of terminal 5. Also, the location of the proposed O'Hare Ring Road was drawn in by the Suburban O'Hare Commission as a paranoia ploy by Bitchin'ville and Elk Grove Garbage. Every other proposal has the Ring Road directly adjacent to the tracks.

Here's a more accurate rendering of the future airport. New terminals are in dark blue:

http://www.cmtengr.com/Images/project/AV_7_ORD_EIS.jpg

Looks like the approach to 4L goes right over the new terminal building? That doesn't seem wise.

That's not accurate anymore - go back one page. Earlier this week OMP made a press release stating that, because of major cost savings, the HVAC-infrastructure building will not move. Heated steam and chilled water for HVAC will simply be transported to the new terminals by creating long pipelines underneath the tarmacs and runways. The plans for Terminal 4 are being re-evaluated, and the terminal may be built next to the infrastructure building, if it is built at all.

:previous: Actually I think Rail Claimore is right. Look at the date for that article you are talking about (2/04). All that had to do with the World Gateway stuff which is difference then OMP. OMP just includes the new West Termina, road and ATS system expansions,l and the rearranging of runways.

Eventually I think the World Gateway program (addling adjacent terminals 4 and 6) may happen after the OMP but it is not I believe part of the same package.

Except that landings won't use 4L. What's likely is that the runway will be used for landing operations on 22R (opposite direction) by smaller aircraft when prevailing wind directions on 27R make it undesirable given the alternative. On the south airfield, 22L will have a similar function and be used primarily for take-offs as an alternative to 28L.

Right now I'm sitting in my truck parked at the eastbound side of the Oasis service plaza off I 90. I see there is a control tower being built right next to the American Airlines maintenance hangar located on the northside of the airport. Does anyone know what this tower will be used for? Will it replace the current one?

That is the North airfield air traffic control tower. It will not replace the current ones but is needed to provide visibility for the north runway currently under construction. The current controls towers can't view this new runway.

Looking at what will be the new runway alignments, I would be awesome (if money grew on trees) to build all new linear concourses straight down the alley...same design as the West Terminal, or ATL with a massive terminal complex at the East and West ends. ;)

I would not be surprised to see something like that take shape at O'Hare in the long-run... long being the key word here. The current terminal complex has at least a good 20-30 years left.

I gotta agree. I'm sure someone at O'Hare took note of Hartsfield-Jackson. They both handle a similar amount of passengers per year, but Atlanta's layout is so much easier to get around. O'Hare is an absolute nightmare.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tl-diagram.png

I think having that option to add island concourses is part of the whole point of this major runway re-configuration. Otherwise, why even bother removing any runways?

Good to see this thread coming back to life. Don't want the most economically important and largest construction project going on in Chicago right now to fly under the radar.

The major reason for the runway reconfiguration project is delay & congestion reduction...not to mention an increase in capacity. Intersecting crosswind runways do not allow for simultaneous operations and tend to gum up the works. The island concourse option is just gravy.

One thing that may have already been discussed in this thread (or heck that I asked and already gotten a reply about and have forgotten) have to do with how will the West Side Terminal and the East Side Current Terminals be connected? Will the Airport Transit System wrap around the airfield and connect the two? Or will a new underground ATS connect (probably at T2) with the West Terminal (T7 I believe)? If it is the former that seems like a good lengthy ride to connect between the two sides of the airport.

Also I think I have read some speculate that the CTA would be extended to the West Terminal T7 though that would seem pretty impractical if not unfeasible to me.

Right, but they could just as easily (and more cheaply) simply build the new parallel runways to the north and south, and not de-commission and REMOVE the crosswind runways....unless they were making room for something.

I think your first question is still up in the air. There is currently an RFP out for that.

For your second question, it wouldn't be unfeasible, just very expensive, and not sure if its worth it. The CTA tunnels are quite far underground at that point; the plus side being that they could be extended without disrupting plane traffic above. The downside being that of course cheaper cut-and-cover isn't an option; I suspect the tunnel extensions would have to be mined.

A TBM isn't an option?

I'm not sure about that, but intuitively I don't see how they could stage the construction, particularly without shutting down the operating CTA station. Do they make particularly small TBMs now? I could potentially see mining relatively short extensions of the existing tunnels to a drop point somewhere in the airfield where a TBM could be lowered, but at that point the remaining distance to tunnel might not be worth the effort. The size of those things is a major limitation on getting them into/out of a worksite, even considering that they disassemble. But I'm no construction expert, not by a long shot. I just watch in enjoyment.

You know, with plans on the book for an extension of the Elgin-O'Hare expressway... and talk of the blue line one day making it to Schaumburg... and a major Airport modernization currently underway...

From Chicago-l.org

Surprise CTA Detour


By Robert McCoppin
DAILY HERALD STAFF WRITER

Date of Publication: October 4, 2002
Source: Daily Herald



A new CTA proposal to extend the Blue Line train to Schaumburg would send trains through O'Hare International Airport and DuPage County, marking a surprise deviation from previously discussed routes.

The new proposal is one of two CTA options, both of which would tunnel under O'Hare to link with a proposed western airport terminal.

http://www.chicago-l.org/articles/im...xtension02.jpg

Some Northwest suburban leaders are concerned because the DuPage route would bypass their municipalities. They also fear that running the extension through a new O'Hare terminal would make it dependent on expanding O'Hare.

In the more familiar of the two proposals, the elevated train route would leave O'Hare and follow the Northwest Tollway in Cook County, as previously discussed by transportation planners.

It would go from O'Hare's existing terminal to a new western terminal, head to Elk Grove Village's industrial park, then stop along the tollway in Des Plaines, Mount Prospect, Arlington Heights, Rolling Meadows and Schaumburg.

The alternate proposal would route the "el" west along the Elgin-O'Hare Expressway, then north up the I-290 extension. It would have stops in Wood Dale/Bensenville, Itasca, Elk Grove and Schaumburg.

Both lines would stop near Woodfield Shopping Center and end at a planned Schaumburg Convention Center. Both trips would take about 15 minutes from O'Hare to Schaumburg and could be extended to the north or west.

Both routes would also offer access to O'Hare from the east and west and provide reverse commuting from Chicago to the suburbs. In addition, most stops would have parking lots and bus transfer stations.

The proposals provide the most concrete plans yet for extending mass transit farther into the Northwest suburbs, a concept that has been discussed for years as a way to shorten travel times on overloaded roads. But both proposals would depart at least in part from the path along the Northwest Tollway that has been considered all along.

The southern route bypasses the tollway almost altogether, and the northern route would miss part of Des Plaines previously covered in discussions. Both plans would stop short of Hoffman Estates and Elgin.

Because of the deviations, the CTA routes are drawing concerned reactions from some suburban mayors.

"The one along the (Northwest) tollway makes more sense from the standpoint of population density and employment density," said Schaumburg Mayor Al Larson, who is leading a study of options for bringing mass transit to the Northwest suburbs. He said it would also do more to serve the towns that are currently in the study.

Whether those towns would be served by the CTA is significant, because they have already ponied up money for the study, and their leaders did not take kindly to now being cut out of the route.

"I was shocked," Arlington Heights Mayor Arlene Mulder said of learning about the southern route. "It was out of context and Johnny-come-lately. … Why should we want to fund a service that would not really benefit Arlington Heights?"

Mulder said the mass transit plan should stick to the Northwest Tollway because that's where the congestion is, and where communities have been paying to study the issue.

Elk Grove Mayor Craig Johnson said he hopes the proposal will not be held hostage to the proposed expansion of O'Hare, which he opposes.

"I don't want to be locked into the (airport) expansion for this to go forward," Johnson said. "All of a sudden, we're seeing things take a different direction."

Asked about the rationale for the new DuPage plan, CTA spokeswoman Robyn Zeigler could not say why the new option was proposed, other than it meets the CTA's goals of increasing ridership and broadening the area the agency serves. The project would also complement CTA plans to run express trains from downtown Chicago to O'Hare, Zeigler said. She added that the CTA considers both proposals separate from O'Hare expansion plans.

Herb Gardner, a member of the Regional Transportation Authority, which is overseeing the study and will help make the ultimate decision, supported the CTA-O'Hare concept as one option.

"We need to look at all the alternatives," he said.

One advantage of going through O'Hare, Gardner said, might be the chance to use airport funds to help pay for the project.

But tunneling under O'Hare could be too expensive, he added, especially in competition with other CTA proposals to build a new line around the west Loop and to extend the Orange Line past Midway Airport.

If the Senate passes legislation to expand O'Hare, Gardner said, it would make the political debate moot.

"Once the legislation passes, they're going to expand O'Hare," he said. "Then either get on the train or watch it go by."

At O'Hare, spokeswoman Monique Bond said only that airport officials are working closely with the CTA and support the plan.

The DuPage Mayors & Managers Conference has proposed express bus service along the Elgin-O'Hare Expressway into O'Hare but would be happy to look at the CTA's proposal, if it fits into the big picture for the region, said transportation program Director Michelle Ryan.

The CTA's plan recently came to light after first surfacing last month at a presentation for suburban officials.

The CTA's plan is just one of several being considered as part of the study. The study focuses on ways to improve transit in the Northwest suburbs, in the cone-shaped corridor between the Union Pacific Northwest Metra line and the Milwaukee District West line.

The RTA, the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority and Northwest suburbs are sharing the $480,000 cost of the study.

Like the CTA, the suburban bus agency Pace is proposing its own options for extending mass transit west from Rosemont.

One option would run an express bus along the shoulders of the Northwest Tollway with limited stops to Barrington Road. Another would provide a special bus rapid transit lane along the tollway with stops to Randall Road.

A third option would build a bus rapid transit route with stops along main arterial roads. Instead of using tollway, it would depend on buses being able to automatically get green lights to improve travel times.

Metra, the commuter rail agency, is also working on a concept, which it is expected to disclose this month.

Suburban officials are also considering a light rail option, like one they toured in St. Louis, which Larson said was fast, smooth and quiet.

Public meetings to discuss each proposal are being planned for late October or early November in the Northwest suburbs.

Construction of any of the options would be at least several years away and would depend on getting hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funding.

Daily Herald staff writer Natasha Korecki contributed to this report.

---


Me thinks it would be cheaper to build tunnel under the airport during the modernization (since an underground ATS will have to be built right next to the proposed alignment) and have it link up with the new Western Terminal building. Then have it run along the extended Elgin-O'Hare expressway to Schaumburg. It would be cheaper to incorporate the blue line while these structures are being built/desinged...

Two more thoughts... Did anyone notice that the Des Plaines site for the original alignment of the blue line extension is a mobile home park? LoL

I also believe Chicago is going to annex Bensenville one day. It would make sense to have a station in the future Chicago neighborhood of Bensenville rather than an Elk Grove Village industrial park and a Des Plaines mobile home park. I suppose Mt. Prospect would be the only town worthy and would miss out since they have a fear amount of mid-rises in their city center.

^ Why do you think Chicago will annex Bensenville?

Chicago needs to extend the Red Line south before implementing any Blue Line extensions, IMO

Extending the blue line west of O'Hare was and is a horrible idea which I thought was put in the morgue where it belongs. Why would anyone want to take a ride from Arlington Hts. or Schaumburg to downtown in a bumpy stop-start ride which will push travel well past an hour once you get west of O'Hare? 15, 30, 45 minutes on the L to go 2-10 miles is one thing. Why people want to push the L 30 miles out of the loop when that is not its best used purpose I have no idea. That is Metra's job and they can and will do it better.

^ The El is just as capable of going fast as METRA. It just doesn't b/c there are too many slow zones. A stop at Woodfield and a stop at Old Orchard would be great. It would open up a lot more shopping options to Chicagoans without cars and would reassert the Loop as the true center of the vast metropolitan area. (Believe it or not I've heard some suburbanites claim that Schaumburg is more important for the region than the Loop). It would also help alleviate some of the Kennedy traffic. The only disappointment is this probably won't be done anytime soon.

I really doubt that. Even when slow zones are lifted the Blue Line would have to beat out express times of 30 minutes times which Metra can provide from Arlington Hts. Unless regular CTA service is planning to use the imaginary airport express tracks then I don't see how it is going to come anywhere close to the 30-45 minutes and similar burbs it takes to get to downtown (and as comfortably). What is the best estimates for a rehabbed line to run at from O'Hare 45 minutes? Not to mention the blue line would make well more then twice as many stops in most cases then Metra.

I agree that a stop at Old Orchard is feasible, but a stop at Woodfield is just not (similarly neither is Northbrook Court which has been proposed as an eventual CTA destination). It is another ten miles out! I get a better idea, increase capacity and running times on Metras to the Schaumburg station and have dependable Pace service that will take the city folk that actually want to go to Woodfield (don't know why they really would but thats ok) all in together with an integrated fair system. At a time when low ridership numbers on certain lines make subsidizing the whole system harder putting in another 10 miles of line in low density suburbia will not improve the situation especially since the vast majority of commuters will just likely continue taking Metra and Woodfield is I speculate nowhere near enough a big enough reverse draw in the other direction to warrant accommodating a steady flow.

Or maybe some burbs should get their heads ouf of the gutter and follow the lead of Evanston, Palatine, and Arlington Hts. and allow for some semblance of real dense retail and entertainment options outside the city with a simple change of zoning and mindset. Why if the region put its mind to it couldn't we have 2 million sq. ft. of similar retail choices spread around some of the over 200 stations instead of feeding the auto-centric machine that Woodfield is and always will be?

As far as the burbanites that would claim Schaumberg is more important let them think so. I also met a girl in Secaucus, NJ right across the Hudson River who couldn't give me directions into Manhattan because she never went into the city. That is just the curse of some too far gone burbanites and thinking that they will be the ones to go and frequantly ride on a twenty stop 1h20min excursion to "the city" for its own sake is betting on the wrong horse.

I could envision a BRT perhaps that would met up with a blue line ended at O'Hare but I don't think I can be convinced that anymore with more capacity or expense would warrant anything much more.

its politics, obviously. I thought all long-time Chicago residents would know that. A red line extension south should be built before any talk other expansions.

The only good news is that the Feds will probably pick up the tab for the portion that runs along the Elgin Ohare expressway. The costs would be minimal since it can be tied in with the new construction. Sane thing with an underground ATS.

The town is broke and Chicago is the largest landowner. Chicago only has to subsidize the school districts temporarly. After that property taxes are gonna be insane. People will be begging for the dissolution of the town and join with anoter jurisdiction. Possibly Wood Dale and Chicago would split it.i

^ Why would Chicago want to bail out a financially bankrupt town?

^^ To gain the tax revenue from the residents.

I think the Blue Line shouldn't be extended past the Western Terminal. The O'Hare branch is already the longest line in the CTA - don't make it longer. The CTA's responsibility is to provide transit to the City of Chicago, not its suburbs. The suburbs that do receive service are all contiguous and indistinguishable from the city, like Evanston, Oak Park, and Berwyn.

What I'd like to see is a multimodal facility built adjacent to the Western Terminal that has a Blue Line terminal, an Metra Airport Express train, and some other system that connects to Schaumburg (either STAR Line or the light rail proposal). A regional connector service would also be nice, with hourly limited-stop trains to Rockford, Milwaukee, Joliet, and Merrillville.

Not bailout... More like picking up the pieces after a blow-up.

Whenever the issue of extending the Yellow Line or Blue comes up, we get the same arguements saying the CTA should serve Chicago and not the suburbs. The reality is that extending the blue and yellow lines would offer Chicago's inner city working class, blue collar if you prefer, transit options to their jobs. Like it or not, the suburbs are the source of more middle income jobs right now. Especially manufacturing, warehousing, distribution and assembly. The type of jobs that have long ago left the city because the companies require HUGE floor plates. A distribution facility can easily top 400,000 square feet on one floor. I know of a worker who travels from Chicago's south side to Elk Grove Village for a manufacturing job. He takes a bus to the red line-transfers to the blue line exits at River Road and then takes a 25 minute circuitous bus ride to EGV. His trip takes almost 2 hours each way. Whats more many of the workers from Humbolt Park and Cragin Belmont would use the blue line extension. The Red line extension actually would provide an overlap of Loop bound service that already is provided by 2 Metra routes.

^ But that just makes so much sense. .... Many of the people on this board seem to be "transit elitists," thinking that the trains serving underprivledged, less dense, often poorer areas are a waste due to fewer riders per station; they should be eliminated altogether so that more money is available to make sure the Brown Line gets to the station exactly on time. Remember?

Given the sheer number of people that utilize the 95th/Dan Ryan station (more than any station south of the river) and all the bus routes feeding it I wouldn't classify an extension as redundant, rather complementary to METRA service. It is also a project that has been promised for a long time and has the full support of the community.

Unless significant money can be extracted from the Feds to extend the Blue Line past the airport I wouldn't support it at this time. Obviously when/if the Blue Line is extended to the West terminal provisions should be made for further extension off airport property at a later date. The Airport Express service via the Blue Line is a project that I am skeptical will ever get off the ground. New METRA service can probably serve that function more cost effectively via a direct link at the West Terminal than the options I've seen from the CTA.

Say whatever you want about the Brown line and it's ridership, it is impossible to debate that the stations were badly deteriorated (and probably unsafe) form over 100 years of non-stop use. Hopefully the Howard and Linden branches will be next up for rehabbing since their bridges and trackage are in such poor condition.

^ Don't get me wrong - I support the Brown Line reconstruction obviously, and I wouldn't put the Blue Line extension near the top of my priority list. I just get annoyed when this thread starts getting too interested in "system efficiency" and forgets the people it is supposed to serve. The "Let's tear down the Green Line because no one lives over there anyway" argument is frustrating.

It would essentially amount to a bailout. Bensenville would be bankrupt for a reason: too much to pay for with not enough money. Chicago can't take in the property tax revenue without paying off the obligations, including funding the schools, infrastructure, etc.

As far as the blue line extension, as someone already pointed out one of the predominant reasons people leave the city is to be closer to work. Since most jobs are now in the suburbs, people follow the jobs. It's not very practical to take the Kennedy or the Metra (accounting for a transfer in the loop) from a neighnorhood like Logan Square. An extension of the blue line to Schaumburg and of the yellow line to Old Orchard would give people the option of living in the city while working in the suburbs. Metra is designed to bring people from the burbs to the loop. It's not very good at taking people from Chicago neighborhoods to jobs in the burbs.

A heavy rail/metro type system is not the most efficient way to move people over long distances. Construction and maintenance costs are astronomical compared to other transit systems. Even running the Blue Line to O'Hare in the first place was pushing the limit, but Jane Byrne and the transit planners at the time really wanted rail service to the airport.

I'm all for providing better service to Elk Grove Village and Schaumburg, but I think we should be looking more at a Metra service where trains can run express, on existing tracks that have to be maintained anyway. Even if passing sidings and new signal systems have to built, it's still far cheaper than extending the Blue Line.

If you combine this with a downtown fare-integration program between CTA and Metra, you've just greatly shortened the commute for jpIllinois' friend and others like him at a much lower price than a Blue Line extension.

Amazing when you consider that many suburban areas around the country try to block transit extensions into their communities.

That being said though, I don't think it's financially feasible. You'll probably see an extension to the western terminal, and that's it.

I see what you're saying, but it's important to not try to be all things to all people. He has a choice in where he lives and where he works; if he has a decent job, he can afford a car. This sounds heartless, but heavy rail is really only justified where there is trip density for at least some presentable cost recovery. By all means, if thousands of people are commuting between the south side and EGV every day, then come up with the fastest way to make that trip. But these are very big dollar amounts we're talking about, in extremely limited quantities. Just saying.

Nothing to new other then there is increased urgency to get the ATS expansion done.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,4001250.story

Appeals court denies petition to reconsider cemetery relocation

A federal appeals court on Wednesday declined to reconsider its decision that Chicago can relocate a religious cemetery in Bensenville to make way for the expansion of O'Hare International Airport.

The ruling to deny a petition filed by St. John's United Church of Christ for a new hearing leaves airport expansion opponents with one remaining appeal -- to the U.S. Supreme Court. Lawyers for the church were not immediately available after Wednesday's decision by the U.S. 7th Circuit Court of Appeals.