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Vicelord John Mar 1, 2013 6:49 AM

I have always had the feeling when looking at streets with parallel parking that something must be going on and I should stop and check it out. No parallel parking? This must be a thoroughfare and I should keep driving. Also, people will be parking behind businesses so that means less foot traffic. This is all going to happen backwards.

somethingfast Mar 1, 2013 2:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sepstein (Post 6033875)
The Pin was mentioned in that article maybe it isn't just a marketing scheme by that company. Seems like the DPI wants it to happen! I think it would diffently bring tons of people downtown! And would be in perfect spot being so close to convention center Chase field and US airways!

I have no problem with The Pin except for the height. What is the point of not making this the tallest structure in DT???? Makes no sense at all. Build it where it can be at least 500-600 feet or don't build it imo. There are a couple places DT where that kind of height is possible, right? And let's be honest...429 feet barely qualifies as an observation tower at all...just another embarrassing, limiting statement on what DT Phoenix is and never can be...

dtnphx Mar 1, 2013 3:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sepstein (Post 6033885)
Putting it at Hance park and making it a lot taller would be great addition to skyline to fill in between midtown and downtown highrises. That would look great! But the science museum it's best spot to attract most people for reasons stated above!

I agree that Hance Park would make a better location. But could you imagine all the Jackcrackers bitching that people can look down into our yard from all the homeowners surrounding it?

westbev93 Mar 1, 2013 4:45 PM

Could you actually build it at Hance Park? I thought that structurally the deck couldn't handle that much weight?

PHX31 Mar 1, 2013 5:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 6033806)
Here's what I'd like to see instead of the Cities plan if anyone cares:

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9018/jn5dwz8.jpg

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/6087/1ab8ieq.jpg

I would think you would want at least a 9' parallel parking lane. God knows people can't parallel park... people will be crowding the through lanes since they can't get near the curb, especially those with slightly wider cars/trucks.

I don't understand the 20' sidewalk width I believe the city is proposing... that's ridiculous. I like your 12', but if you need more space for parallel parking or otherwise, make them as little as 10'. Also, a bike lane can be 4' minimum, if you need an extra foot.

I'm starting to like the parallel parking idea, but as a bicyclist I'd be a little wary riding down these bike lanes with the threat of a car door suddenly opening in front of me from a passenger of someone parking in the parallel parking spaces.... hopefully the curb would be enough to prevent a car from riding into the bike lane when they are trying to parallel park.

Finally, in Europe I noticed a ton of dedicated bike lanes located next to the sidewalks as your plan shows. One problem was that pedestrians were constantly walking in the bike lane obstructing the bicyclists. Other than on a First Friday, I'd assume the pedestrian levels will be low and this won't be a problem, but there could be some injury issues with bike/ped collisions, or bicyclists may end up using the road (which is actually fine, since they are "vehicles" too).

All in all, you're cramming a lot in there, but it's a pretty good idea compared to the city's.

HooverDam Mar 1, 2013 5:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicelord John (Post 6034039)
I have always had the feeling when looking at streets with parallel parking that something must be going on and I should stop and check it out. No parallel parking? This must be a thoroughfare and I should keep driving. Also, people will be parking behind businesses so that means less foot traffic. This is all going to happen backwards.

You're 100% correct. We kept trying to sell the City Streets Dept on the 4 benefits of parallel parking:

1. Protects pedestrians (and bikes if you put them on the passenger side) from moving automobiles. It also diverts exhaust from cars away from sidewalk.

2. Slows traffic due to the fear of being doored/people pulling in and out.

3. Reduces the need for surface lots/parking garages, which create harmful 'gaps' in the urban fabric

4. Creates a place for quick trips to local business (ie parking for 15 minutes, hop out to get a coffee and run).

You'd think the F'ing Streets Department would know that, but they're frankly ignorant. Its exceedingly clear that the PHX Streets Dept, and the Consultants they hire don't travel much to other Cities and aren't up on the current State of their own industry.

They kept trying to tell us we could have either shade trees or parallel parking, but both was 'impossible' because of utilities under ground. While that makes things difficult, there's a zillion solutions, the Streets people are just lazy.

I asked the 2 project leads (Kerry Wilcoxon and Gail Brinkman) what their favorite urban/walkable street in Maricopa County is, Kerry said Scottsdale Rd in Old Town and Gail said Murphy Bridle Path. So is it any surprise that people who think those 2 streets are the shining examples of urbanity gave us a sub par project?

westbev93 Mar 1, 2013 7:13 PM

I have a co-worker who worked at the City for years. She said the biggest issue in dealing with the City in anything (streets is not the only one that has this problem) is that everyone has a way they have been doing things, and they are reluctant to figure out a new way after doing things a particular way for decades.

Of course, when you've been doing things wrong for decades, a stubborn persistence to follow tradition is pretty damn stupid. But until they fire the City Manager and bring in someone better, I can't imagine there will be a philosophical shift on any of this.

Vicelord John Mar 1, 2013 9:09 PM

btw, did anyone else notice that the McDowell Mountain Music Festival is at Hance Park this year?

pbenjamin Mar 1, 2013 9:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicelord John (Post 6034833)
btw, did anyone else notice that the McDowell Mountain Music Festival is at Hance Park this year?

Hadn't heard that. Good catch.

Vicelord John Mar 1, 2013 9:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 6034467)
their favorite urban/walkable street in Maricopa County is, Kerry said Scottsdale Rd in Old Town and Gail said Murphy Bridle Path.

who the fuck are these morons?

Mill Avenue is, by far, the most urban/walkable street in Maricopa County, likely with Stetson Drive as a close second.

Both have..... parallel parking.


:runaway:

PS, Hoover, the idea of a bike lane being on the passenger side of parallel parking scares the living bejeebus out of me. Drivers are typically more cognizant of opening their doors into traffic, but their passengers are in the habit of just opening the doors automatically... I feel my chance of getting the door prize is much higher that way, so I'd be using the car lane no doubt.

HooverDam Mar 2, 2013 4:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX31 (Post 6034463)
I would think you would want at least a 9' parallel parking lane. God knows people can't parallel park... people will be crowding the through lanes since they can't get near the curb, especially those with slightly wider cars/trucks.

8' is the Federal Standard, and if people are struggling to parallel park, it means traffic is moving even slower, which on a street like this is a good thing.

But I won't quibble over a foot here or there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX31 (Post 6034463)
I'm starting to like the parallel parking idea, but as a bicyclist I'd be a little wary riding down these bike lanes with the threat of a car door suddenly opening in front of me from a passenger of someone parking in the parallel parking spaces.... hopefully the curb would be enough to prevent a car from riding into the bike lane when they are trying to parallel park.
.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicelord John (Post 6034895)
PS, Hoover, the idea of a bike lane being on the passenger side of parallel parking scares the living bejeebus out of me. Drivers are typically more cognizant of opening their doors into traffic, but their passengers are in the habit of just opening the doors automatically... I feel my chance of getting the door prize is much higher that way, so I'd be using the car lane no doubt.

I agree it seems odd at first. They have them in Boston and it took me some getting used to, but once people get used to it, its great. Often times people aren't carpooling, so being doored isn't a concern. Plus you could theoretically put a sign on trees/parking meters that said "Look for bikes!" or whatever.

I personally felt safer in these "Cycle Paths" protected by 2 tons of steel from moving traffic with my only worry being doored (as opposed to being doored and hit by traffic).

Plus since its on sidewalk level, on 1st Fridays, you simply disallow the bikes in the Cycle path and now you've got a much wider side walk.

But again, if they were on the other side, thats OK too. But the City is so far off base we had to BEG and FIGHT them to get any bike lanes at all in the fucking first place! Notice how their last project, 1st St, has none! Ug.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicelord John (Post 6034895)
who the fuck are these morons?

Mill Avenue is, by far, the most urban/walkable street in Maricopa County,

Right, obviously Mill Ave is the "right" answer, thats why I asked the question!

I expected them to both reply "Mill Avenue" and then I could basically erupt and say "then just copy Mill Avenue you morons!" (but nicer than that, ya know). But there answers were so stunningly stupid it caught me off guard.

As to "who the fuck are these morons"....I think the issue is, these are people who got their Traffic Engineering degrees in the 70s. We were still in the throws of "urban renewal", "arterial streets", et cetera. So unfortunately, thats what they know, and they haven't kept up with the times. By the time they've been in the City long enough to get to the top of their Department, their older and pretty set in their ways.

Joseph Perez, the City of Phoenix Bike Coordinator, is the only person in the whole Department worth anything. He's got a lot of good plans, but Phoenix's bike budget is around the level of Bismarck, ND's...so he can't do much.

Vicelord John Mar 2, 2013 5:23 AM

Bike lanes are an illusion of safety anyway. Half the time I ride on the left side of them or if I'm in a group not even in them.

HooverDam Mar 2, 2013 5:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicelord John (Post 6035366)
Bike lanes are an illusion of safety anyway. Half the time I ride on the left side of them or if I'm in a group not even in them.

I agree 100%. Theres always going to be a decent risk with cycling, but that illusion is important. "Spandex" cyclists (you'd likely fall into this category) don't really care about bike lanes, you're probably skilled enough to ride in mixed traffic. However my goal is to get families with kids riding to the corner for ice cream, people riding to work, to the movies, etc.

Vicelord John Mar 2, 2013 6:02 AM

Yes there is an appropriate usage for everything. Places like Roosevelt are streets I'd avoid altogether as 20/25 mph in a bike lane with no bail out would be sooooo scary. For recreationists, commuters, and the general populous, sidewalks are even sufficient in a pinch.

pbenjamin Mar 2, 2013 4:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicelord John (Post 6034895)
who the fuck are these morons?

Mill Avenue is, by far, the most urban/walkable street in Maricopa County, likely with Stetson Drive as a close second.

Both have..... parallel parking.

Actually, Stetson Drive has primarily diagonal parking, unless the Google satellite view is dated.

Vicelord John Mar 3, 2013 2:44 AM

It's a walkable urban street. Wtf does diagonal parking have to do with it?

Vicelord John Mar 3, 2013 2:45 AM

Oh I said that. Lol. But it does have parallel parking. I've used it. It's in front of the 7014 building.

plinko Mar 3, 2013 3:17 AM

Hoover, a good start, but I agree that the bike lane is on the wrong side. Bicycles are vehicles of traffic. I'd much rather have a place to go than get wedged to the curb by some idiot.

FYI, State Street in Santa Barbara (which is a hell of a lot more urban than anything in Phoenix) has an 80ft right-of-way with 12ft sidewalks. The only difference is that instead of parallel parking it has a heavily landscaped area with benches and other amenities (so that the sidewalk is clear). At each intersection that area becomes the right turn lane.

Vicelord John Mar 3, 2013 4:14 AM

Plinko do you know steve wiexel?

exit2lef Mar 4, 2013 8:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 6034467)
I asked the 2 project leads (Kerry Wilcoxon and Gail Brinkman) what their favorite urban/walkable street in Maricopa County is, Kerry said Scottsdale Rd in Old Town and Gail said Murphy Bridle Path. So is it any surprise that people who think those 2 streets are the shining examples of urbanity gave us a sub par project?

I can understand the Scottsdale Road answer, although I'd pick Mill Avenue in Downtown Tempe or Main Street in Downtown Mesa first. Regardless, it's a shame when we allow any of our suburbs to out-urban Downtown Phoenix. The Murphy Bridle Path answer is more troubling. I love that path, but it's designed for exercise in a suburban setting. With all of its hiking trails and multi-use paths, Phoenix does recreational walkability quite well. Where it falls short is in day-to-day walkability -- the ability to do basic errands via walking. Our city staff should understand the difference.


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