I'm confused, you make the point that Manhattan and Chicago residents don't work in the area and then say in Phoenix they should?

He's clearly stating that downtown is not going to be affordable for everyone, pointing out examples from Manhattan and Chicago. Affordable housing in the city's core doesn't really limit how great a city becomes. There are people who are going to be priced out and that's the way it is. The argument that affordable housing has to be everywhere is ludicrous. If young professionals find that downtown Phoenix is out of their price range, they have other neighborhoods to choose from.

I don't think anyone is arguing anything but you're coming across fairly confrontational with the "clearly" and "ludicrous" so I'm just going to back away from this after letting you know I found your post fairly jerky.

Grabbing a napkin and using a little deductive reasoning and common sense I figure Phoenix (metro) just has to take off soon.

While I lived in Denver I've been aware of and generally followed the growth of both cities since the mid 1970's. As I recall Phoenix was passing Denver prior to the Great Recession for cost of housing. That has changed since though. So many places including Denver have become so unaffordable that surely companies and businesses will want to take advantage of the current affordability of Phoenix.

In keeping with the spirit and intent of RiNo in Denver to be more affordable, Alliance Res. recently started construction for Broadstone at RiNo with over half of the 270 units being studios and 1 bdrms with rents to start at about $1,000 per month for a 500 SF studio. I'd guess they're doing this project because they were able to buy the land reasonably.

I don't even understand that market in Denver; it's gone totally nuts. There is little apartment construction in the suburbs as builders aren't sure of the demand. Everybody wants to live downtown. Twenty years ago it was very different. Ten years ago it was better but nothing special. Like Phoenix Denver does not have any Ocean Front Property. It's inexplicable to me other than it has become a millennial crazed urban place. Virtually half of the development for the whole metro area is occurring in or near downtown.

While I wouldn't contend Phoenix will follow the same exact path I would suggest that it feels a lot like Denver did ten years ago.

Don't sweat it.

What's "ludicrous" is comparing Phoenix to Chicago and NYC. There's too many reasons to even list why THAT argument is flawed. Both of those cities have actual urban neighborhoods surrounding their downtowns that are options for working professionals who can't buy 400K condos; Phoenix has little other than some historic neighborhoods with limited inventory. NYC and Chicago have tons of high-paying white collar jobs in their downtowns; Phoenix does not. How many millionaires in Phoenix want to live the urban lifestyle in a still-not-there downtown? And, if you don't think that affordable housing and retail space had nothing to do with the vibrant neighborhoods within each of those cities, you're nuts. Just because each has gentrified and real estate prices have reached astronomical highs does not mean that 1) Phoenix needs to follow the same model, and 2) that, at one point, each faced a similar challenge as Phoenix is now.

I don't why it is even an argument that there needs to be some affordable housing within a downtown that is trying to grow and get a solid middle class supporting its local economy. Luxury housing has its place, but it's extremely ignorant to say that if you can't afford that, you just don't deserve to live downtown. The group of people who have made downtown into a "something" are people who would never be able to purchase one of these condos or rent in any of the apartments going up. If you're fine with that, cool. But, I don't think it's unreasonable to desire some kind of balance.

Eric Jay Toll has a somewhat interesting article:

"Want better employees? Arizona experts say to back affordable housing, efficient transit"
Apr 7, 2015 by Eric Jay Toll, Phoenix Business Journal

A couple of comments on this...

• Affordability is relative - Downtowns will always be more expensive to live in because land is usually more expensive and there are high-density requirements that make it more expensive to build and maintain the building. Living in downtown Chicago or New York will always be more expensive that living outside of downtown. Any other city, including Phoenix will be the same way. However, while living in Downtown Phoenix will be relatively more expensive that living outside Downtown Phoenix, it will also be relatively less than living in Manhattan.
• Developers are in the business of making money - there is more money to be made when selling luxury units for higher prices.
• High rises are expensive to build & maintain - Even if they are apartments the rents will be higher as there is more construction cost and maintenance cost required

At the end of the day, most of this comes down to 1) cost of land 2) cost of construction 3) cost of maintenance.

I don't think many would argue that all three of those are higher for a high-density building or skyscraper than for suburban apartments.

I see the premise of this piece in lots of business journalism. Attract better employess with affordable housing, transit, etc. But there's something a bit nebulous about this proposition in a core that has yet to experience a self-sustaining boom. It's a classic chicken-or-egg problem. Will the boom take off with better jobs or more affordable housing? In Phoenix, the real issue is whether anything solid happens before the next bust.

I see the same articles written in Portland, where housing costs are beginning to approach nose-bleed territory. The "cool" factor keeps well-educated millenials flocking here, and micro-apartments of 200 sf or less are the latest stopgap in affordable housing. Even so, they rent for around $800 a month.

When you see some of those wonderful vintage apartments on west Osborn Rd being gentrified, you'll know Phoenix has turned a corner. I don't think urban magic is that difficult to decipher. You can't compel it or even explain it succinctly. But you'll know it
when you see it.

Well said. With respect to Phoenix the idea seems a bit - Huh? Phoenix is yet to see its big urban porn push (you know it when you see it). Plus affordable housing options isn't really the issue here so much.

I sense partly an institutional recognition of the growing income disparity in the country. In referencing transit access, it does make good sense for more affordable options in general with easy access to downtown along light rail etc.

Speaking of Portland... How 'bout dem Loo's?

http://cdn.citylab.com/media/img/cit...lead_large.jpg

Thanks to City of Portland via City Lab

I saw where John Metcalfe at City Lab did the research in a now dated article from January of 2012.
Does Phoenix need a big push with T-shirts featuring "Love a Loo"?

So more details on the deal. Not sure of the building name but it's on the NE corner of Central/Thomas. 220K sq feet initially with option to add 100K more if required in future and will house about 1,400 employees when move is done. Great win for midtown indeed! :notacrook:

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/b...s-hq-move.html

Good. I don't need people to agree with my opinions. I was just trying to help you out since you seemed to struggle comprehending what I thought was a pretty well stated post.

Midtown Making Waves

"Midtown Phoenix towers are bargain office hotspots"
Apr 8, 2015 by Eric Jay Toll, Phoenix Business Journal
:tup:

While not directly related to downtown it could be highly relevant plus it's an interesting fun read.

"Get ready for Arizona's tech boom"
Apr 8, 2015 by Hamid Shojaee, Entrepreneur - founder of Axosoft, Pure Chat and AZTechBeat.com via Phoenix Business Journal
I would have no opinion on his bravado but I wouldn't discount the possibility. If his vision pans out then this could have a big impact on downtown.

He references Boulder which is a very different kind of place. Google had to endure a painful process to get approval to build three 4-story "towers." The NIMBY's thought that was obnoxiously high. For good old fashioned entrepreneurial and tech creativity there's a lot more in downtown Denver.

When I suggested in a recent comment that downtown Phoenix can be so much more than Scottsdale or Tempe it was this kind of difference that I was thinking of. I see the potential of downtown becoming a much more interesting place for creativity. Actually I would discount Scottsdale's potential more than Tempe but having Tempe and downtown a short light rail ride apart may work to the benefit of both.

He doesn't offer any evidence to support this. All we seem to be getting is data centers and the like. Not happening.

No one mentioned this yet?

http://ktar.com/22/1823672/UBER-GROWTH

I didn't know Uber had taken lease in a downtown Phoenix building. Plus a global operations center is great, whatever and where ever it may be. I'd bet it's somewhere along light rail.

It was mentioned around the time article below was published. But i think the news about "Global Operations Center" is new. Earlier articles mentioned "some" employees but hundreds is great news! They leased Monroe building (111 W Monroe).

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...nix-space.html

I think there was an article on this a while ago and I believe they'll be in the 111 W. Monroe St. building. Can anyone confirm?

Very interesting. I was also under the impression this would be a small regional office. The article says "hundreds of jobs" though. Is there enough room in 111 W. Monroe or will they look for more space when it warrants?

Would be great to see them setup a large operation either downtown or in the Mill & Rio tower in Tempe.

Well there was THIS just this morning about a San Francisco tech support company expanding to Scottsdale. I think I've been by those buildings and it's an odd location. I'll assume with much vacancy the rent was very cheap.

I grant you that his hyperbole is a stretch from the back office and customer care stuff that has been more typical but I'll give him some cred for knowing his own territory. Looking backwards won't provide any clues and the future is yet to be written.

Denver is hardly a tech destination, like Austin for example, but any new entrepreneurial venture likely has a significant tech component. Consider the couple who developed software for the fitness world that located in the Warehouse District. That's more what I'm thinking of with respect to downtown.

Whatever Shojaee is envisioning won't happen next month but over a few years - who knows?

They have about 3,500 SF at 111 W. Monroe St. and have nearly 42,000 SF of space at Collier Center, 201 E. Washington St.