The largest mall in America is getting closer to approval in Northwest Miami-Dade
 

The largest mall in America is getting closer to approval in Northwest Miami-Dade


May 07, 2018

BY DOUGLAS HANKS

Read More: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...210642844.html




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Hopefully it can be stopped. And frankly a giant mall doesn't sound like a great bet anyway.

Looks like the stuff of nightmares.

Might end up underwater eventually for such a big long term project.

These are the same people trying to revive the disaster that was Xanadu in the New Jersey Meadowlands.

http://www.americandream.com

The NJ project is actually finishing up and opening in a few months.

I'll be contrarian here and bet this project will be pretty successful. It's more like a gigantic amusement park than a typical mall. I assume the FL proposal is similar to the NJ project.

Retailers seem to love the project, BTW. They've lured Saks and all the other high end department stores, as well as a number of intl retailers building their first stores in the U.S. It will have a direct train to Manhattan.

South Americans will flock in droves to it.

A couple months? It's supposed to open in spring 2019 and that's optimistic:

https://www.northjersey.com/story/ne...019/577026002/

Saks isn't some super impressive retailor LOL, they have outlet stores everywhere. The whole thing has been a money pit for NJ, imagine if they invested all this in downtown Newark instead.

A place, where nobody dared to go?

Yeah, they should use the money to invest in the downtown and transit friendly areas. Although, there's already a lot going on in downtown Miami with the World Center and stuff in Brickell. The development action should be focused there and not some exurban plot of land out near the Everglades.

looks wretched. And extremely boring. Minneapolis's Mall of America was perhaps the most soul-sucking place I have ever had the displeasure of visiting.

Maybe they should just be done with it and just create an Amusement park and the other malls wouldn’t see it as a threat.

Some thoughts:

1. Why should rival mall owners be allowed to sue this project? What ever happened to fair competition?

2. Transit access would be for employees, mostly. Im not sure why that is such a hang up.

3. I can see a lot of foreign tourists shopping there, its Miami after all.

4. If it fails, that's the developers problem.

Its moving along. I drove by it on the 9th of May. A lot of activity.

Pics by me.

https://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com/busin...207a00ebd3.jpg

https://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com/busin...d14358da1a.jpg

The thing people have to understand is that not every project out there is a straight linear progression from point A to B, where A is inception, and B is completion. Sometimes there are hurdles. What may influence it? Economy, politics, world events, issues with developers, financing, litigation, and so on.

Sometimes its good to just wait and be patient. Large scale projects on a grandiose level are not the easiest things to pull off. Is it a risk? Sometimes yes, a big one, but lets be confident!

I completely agree with you. This looks like an amusement park where you can also be shopping (a concept popular with families, no doubt), and an attractive one at that. Note that in the article, they're referring to it as a "theme park" and "an alternative to Disney World".

We on SSP may not like the idea from an urbanistic point of view, but that's got nothing to do with the fact it's almost certainly going to be successful.

Places like these might become more common around the U.S. due to online retailers like Amazon.

You can buy anything on Amazon that is found in a boring mall, but Amazon cannot recreate a rollercoaster, ski slopes, wave pool experience surrounded by retailers. It's shoppertainment.

Hopefully an alligator or two doesn’t sneak in.

It already sounds like an epic failure to me... 100,000 additional car trips a day, damn!

Yeah, the NJ project is 80% entertainment uses (two theme parks, aquarium, indoor ski slopes, etc.).

It's definitely not my cup of tea, but it's competing more with family amusements than regional malls.

I've been in commercial real estate way too long to believe such things. Even if it gets built, malls and "attractions" underperform all the time. Even successes can be very short-lived.

Now add the fact that retail is cratering overall. And the better sectors of retail today can be their own craters tomorrow.

True. But do you know how much $ Brazilians drop on clotting, shoes, electronics, etc. at Florida stores? Brazilian tour groups go to Miami just to shop and they return with suitcases full of new stuff that is prohibitively expensive to buy in Brazil. And how much they visit and spend at Orlando theme parks? It’s insane. And that’s just the Brazilian tourists.

Perhaps they should include condos too to spread out their bets.

It's the same thing in NY-NJ. The Jersey Gardens outlet mall basically exists for tourists filling suitcases full of cheap consumer goods. There are masses of tour buses that go out from Manhattan and the airports to Jersey Gardens, Woodbury Commons and other regional outlets.

And everyone claims that retail is dead, yet top commercial streets and shopping malls have never been more successful. Just off the top of my head, in addition to this project, there's a new urban mall in Norwalk, CT anchored by Bloomingdales and Nordstrom, there are new Nordstrom and Neiman Marcus flagships in Manhattan (alongside a 1 million square foot retail center in Hudson Yards), Kings Plaza in Brooklyn has basically been completely rebuilt with new anchors, and there's a large outdoor mall planned for Syosset (LI).

Second tier malls and lower-end malls are dying, but first-tier retail is thriving.

I've been in commercial real estate for nearly 15 years now, and theme parks are an entirely different thing from offering brick-and-mortar retail space to businesses as a landlord.

The fact that retail is cratering has no bearing on amusement parks, which this, from what I can see, is. An amusement park to take your kids to, where you can also happen to do a bit of shopping on the side if you want.

To me, if anything, this is a new attraction, which will provide amenities to Miami. Either you have the option of visiting a theme park/mall in Miami or you don’t and if you have the opportunity at getting that option, you should jump at it. My only negative connotation is that they need to be careful with the traffic impact and plan for it.

Say what you want, but the waterpark looks fun. People will definitely go to this. Leave the kids at the amusement/water park while the adults shop around.

What is this, 1995? That will make for quite the hellscape after it is abandoned when Miami begins to be swallowed by the seas.

Two words: Bilge pumps ;)

To build such a large new mall today is kinda impressive. Due the closure of department stores (most recently, Zellers/Target), a lot of malls in around me are dying, being replaced by power centres, which are 100x worse.

An indoor waterpark in Miami of all places makes zero sense, why would anybody go to this?

Your kids can be in the ocean while you shop in south beach instead. I don't even see kids being left in the water without parents in any case anyway.

Get rid of the "mall" references, and consider this a water park with retail. Genius! (or Genius?)

Then you know it's at risk to both the entertainment side and the retail side. Nothing I said is controversial.

Your logic isn't logical. None of this suggests your factor is permanent. And none of this suggest enough of this will transfer to the mall from wherever it is now.

Nordstrom and Neiman-Marcus are both facing huge financial problems. Some form of BK is probably on the horizon for Neiman's. It will be very interesting to see whether Neiman's and Nordstrom's will be able to jump start a brand new shopping district in the Hudson Yard development. Is Manhattan really like Tokyo in that regard, able to support multiple high end shopping nodes in the era of online shopping, especially with so many savvy shoppers looking for designer bargains online. I tried to make some sense of the NYT article linked below, but I could not figure out whether Nordstrom does actually plan to go ahead with a Hudson Yard store. The somewhat downsized Neiman's store has been delayed until a 2019 opening date.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/08/b...ork-store.html

It's a mall. The revenue comes from stores. The amusement park features is the attraction (marketing/ the draw) . It has also taken $800 million in corporate welfare to the American Dream Mall off the ground. I expect these guys will be seeking similar arrangements in Miami Dade as well.

Nordstrom's Manhattan flagship is already partially open. The men's store is operating, the women's store opens next year. But it's on 57th Street, not Hudson Yards. It's already the highest grossing Nordstrom.

NM's Manhattan flagship is part of Hudson Yards, and it will open in 2019, alongside all the other retail.

Manhattan shopping, while not immune to online retail, is heavily dependent on international visitors. There are different operating assumptions than your typical U.S. department store. Alongside Miami, Honolulu, and maybe LA/OC, a huge proportion of retail spending is by non-locals.

The men's store has been open for one month. It is a little early to make big statements about the numbers. I am sure that a ton of people will shop or visit there in the next few months, but then it is all about developing a loyal customer base. Do you know whether Nordstrom still plans to open a smaller store in the Hudson Yard development? The NYT article makes it seem like they decided to go with 57th Street for the present time.

Nordstrom never had plans for HY. They were always planning on 57th.

There have been repeated rumors that Nordstrom is also looking to open in Lower Manhattan, around the WTC, but so far nothing official. NY Post reported that they were considering One Wall Street, but that retail space was eventually leased by Whole Foods.

I wasn't countering your position (hence the "True").

Bringing up the fact that Brazilians/South Americans drop an insane amount of cash at retail outlets and amusement parks in Florida is just something to consider in trying to figure out why the hell they would build this thing, given the current state of retail, perpetual underperformance, and time horizon issues that you mentioned.

I wasn't suggesting this is a permanent situation or that the mall would pull enough business from existing shopping/attractions. I have no idea. But it sounds like they are building it... and I can't imagine they would undertake something of this ridiculous magnitude -- particularly with the current state of retail -- without some sort of assurance that they're going to see acceptable returns.

In the event that this does actually get built, South Florida would have 3 of the top 10 largest malls in the US which seems a little unnecessary. Not sure this is thread worthy though.

Outdoor water parks never stay open long either, just too much competition.

This is what I don't understand. We are already saturated with malls down here. However, I do like the theme park/ski resort/water park concept since basically there is only 1 water park in South Florida.

^^^ Rapids is the only one? Not even a water park in Broward?

There's also a bunch of smaller parks in Palm Beach county like Calypso Bay in Royal Palm Beach.

There are a million small water parks throughout south florida. You see them in a lot of parks.

Century City's new Westfield Mall is amazing.

It needs a casino/boozy side for adults; like pools, restaurants, and bars wrapped around some hotels and a casino.

True. But also have a healthy area were there's hot springs.

Nevermind I forgot it's Florida, it's hot there

The Hard Rock Casino is going through a major upgrade (which isn't too far from this mall site)
https://www.hospitalitynet.org/picture/153083439.jpg
https://denapoligroup.files.wordpres...odfl.jpg?w=640

^That pool complex looks very nice!