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Pedestrian Apr 15, 2021 7:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9249316)
I have a question for the "COVID is mutating and the vaccine may eventually stop working" porn crowd:

What happens when a new vaccine for the mutant strain is created?

Then we get that shot.

Then the mutant strain mutates further so that the new shot is no longer effective?

Then we will get a new shot for the new strains...

Then that shot is no longer effective because COVID has mutated even further..

But then there's another new shot...

And another set of new mutations....

And another new shot....

All the while ALL of NYC's restaurants, gyms, and bars are long closed & the roofs collapsed..
All of the hotels everywhere are abandoned
We all are connected via wires from our scalps to our laptops and order everything on Amazon while watching CNN updates on COVID infection rates 24/7
And Pedestrian now has long hair, a long beard, looks like Gandalf, and slurps all of his meals through a sterile straw

But we will STILL BE SAFE!!!!!! :haha:

First of all, is it possible for you to be respectful of anyone who disagrees with you? Evidently not. You are acting like a jerk and I am going to report future posts that feature ad hominem attacks until the mods take some action.

Now on to the substance.

This is based on an entirely FALSE premise. Nobody here is advocating keeping everything locked down.

I believe we are in agreement that once most people who are willing--and I do think there needs to be some coercion of the less than willing such as vaccine passports for indoor crowded events, pressure at office job sites to either get vaccinated or undergo frequent testing at YOUR expense and so on--have been vaccinated, we can relax most of the public health measures. I personally plan to continue to wear a mask in some settings where I never would have thought of doing so previously until COVID become truly a sporadic illness with NO regularly occurring cases. But even that should probably become voluntary one we have given as many shots as people are willing to take.

Finally, yes, we MAY need to continuously come up with new vaccines and the mRNA technology makes that pretty easy. But if we suppress coronavirus replication drastically, mutation may be few and far between and new "booster" shots may hardly be needed.

Pedestrian Apr 15, 2021 7:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 9250028)
I got flu shots just about every year in middle and high school, but only because my parents were required to be vaccinated for work. I haven't gotten a flu shot since college, but I got the flu a couple of years ago and it was no fun at all. If it were more convenient to get the shot, I would do it every year without question.

How much more convenient does it have to be? Every year I walk into a Walgreen's (that's Duane Reade to you I think) or CVS and say I'd like a flu shot please and within 30 minutes I walk out having had one (paid for by my insurance).

In another month or two, getting a COVID shot will hopefully be like that too.

woodrow Apr 15, 2021 8:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9250221)
56 is old? Holy shit!

And I disagree that we should be targeting any age group for vaccination. All adults should be encouraged to get the shots. I’m not as irrationally freaked about variants as some others are, but we DO have to acknowledge that as long as the viral load is high in the public, the virus will gradually evolve into resistant strains. Keeping viral levels low within the population is the best way to dramatically slow that process down.

No no...he's right. I am ready to be put out to pasture. Getting my cane fitt'n next week.

But to your point on variants, like you I am not freaked out, but if we can minimize the number of variants and their potential problems, why not? That is why I want everyone, old and young, to get vaccinated, whether mRNA based or vaccines like J&J (assuming there is 1. No causal connection or 2. Deemed worth the risk).

iheartthed Apr 15, 2021 8:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9250301)
How much more convenient does it have to be? Every year I walk into a Walgreen's (that's Duane Reade to you I think) or CVS and say I'd like a flu shot please and within 30 minutes I walk out having had one (paid for by my insurance).

In another month or two, getting a COVID shot will hopefully be like that too.

That sounds easy, but not necessarily convenient. I'm not making an excuse, because I know I could get one if I needed to. But I have to substantially alter my routine to get a shot, and it's not usually a pressing concern. Now that I'm getting older I'll probably be more responsible.

JManc Apr 15, 2021 8:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9249342)
Except it’s not me making incorrect, unsupported statements. It’s me and like a dozen other forumers making statements which are supported by a year’s worth of clinical and statistical data, and then you and one or two other hypochondriacs saying that the sky is falling and young, healthy people need to act like we are still in lockdown or we’ll all die.

You're the other extreme of the hypochondriacs who wear 2 masks in the car and think we're all going to die. It's somewhere in the middle..like most issues. Young people should get vaccinated if not for themselves but for us to reach herd immunity. My mother-in-law is in remission for a form of leukemia which rendered her vaccination useless so it's in her best interest and those like her if everyone gets vaccinated. Plus, you're age group isn't bullet proof; half the people I see in their 30's are not exactly in tip top shape.

10023 Apr 15, 2021 8:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9250280)
The mRNA vaccines are likely among the safest possible vaccines and even though there's not long-term testing (nor will such necessarily be generally applicable even when we have relatively long term experience with the coronavirus mRNA vaccines), it's hard to come up with a theory on how they could do harm which is in contrast to traditional vaccines and other techniques. mRNA, unlike other forms of RNA, does not get incorporated into the human genome and its existence within the body is transitory. It is soon destroyed by the body. It is emphatically NOT a gene editing technology.


https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243

Finally, you are also incorrect in saying that this technology is "brand new". In fact, there has been a lot of research with it and numerous prototype vaccines previously created. As the CDC put it:


https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ines/mrna.html

This idea that mRNA vaccine technology is entirely new and untried is a media fiction you have bought hook, line and sinker. You don't even know how it works.

For a MUCH more thorough discussion of the research and past vaccines, see https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243

Maybe we are confused about the use of the word “essentially”. It tricks the body into producing antibodies by the introduction of genetic code. If it was not temporary and was incorporated permanently into the patient’s genome, then it wouldn’t have been “essentially” anything, it would be actual gene editing technology like Luxturna.

There has never been an approved mRNA vaccine. There have not even been large scale phase 3 studies of a previous mRNA vaccine, just earlier stage research. It is a new technology.

10023 Apr 15, 2021 8:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9250387)
You're the other extreme of the hypochondriacs who wear 2 masks in the car and think we're all going to die. It's somewhere in the middle..like most issues. Young people should get vaccinated if not for themselves but for us to reach herd immunity. My mother-in-law is in remission for a form of leukemia which rendered her vaccination useless so it's in her best interest and those like her if everyone gets vaccinated. Plus, you're age group isn't bullet proof; half the people I see in their 30's are not exactly in tip top shape.

Well, I’m in pretty damn good shape. I’ve also apparently had Covid and those antibodies are as good as the ones from a vaccine with respect to herd immunity.

10023 Apr 15, 2021 8:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9250301)
How much more convenient does it have to be? Every year I walk into a Walgreen's (that's Duane Reade to you I think) or CVS and say I'd like a flu shot please and within 30 minutes I walk out having had one (paid for by my insurance).

In another month or two, getting a COVID shot will hopefully be like that too.

30 minutes is actually quite a long time to spend waiting around in a pharmacy for someone who isn’t retired.

Pedestrian Apr 15, 2021 8:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodrow (Post 9250364)
No no...he's right. I am ready to be put out to pasture. Getting my cane fitt'n next week.

But to your point on variants, like you I am not freaked out, but if we can minimize the number of variants and their potential problems, why not? That is why I want everyone, old and young, to get vaccinated, whether mRNA based or vaccines like J&J (assuming there is 1. No causal connection or 2. Deemed worth the risk).

Nobody here is "freaked out". Frankly, I doubt there's as much disagreement as some might wish.

We mostly agree the CDC blew their early responsibilities with a test that didn't work and totally inadequate contact tracing and so on a year ago. In my opinion, their most important job right now is genotyping any and all "breakthrough" cases looking for evidence of variants that do have an ability to evade the vaccines in serious numbers and, if any are discovered, making sure that production of modified vaccines is in process. The article I posted above suggests they are on top of this. I just hope they are.

It is also important to reduce viral replication as much as possible. That will minimize the potential for mutations that could be a problem. And it means getting as many people as possible vaccinated, young and old (it doesn't matter how sick the virus makes you when it infects you--it can mutate in you regardless). It also means that young people avoiding vaccination and/or accepting a high degree of risk of infection is a problem for everyone because they are an incubator for potential mutations.

All this is among the reasons 10023's attitude is so wrong. But to the degree urban politician just wants lockdowns and economy-damaging restrictions lifted, we agree. I've personally never been for the tightest of measures (I said at the beginning of this discussion that I wouldn't stay locked in my home even if told to) and I agree with him that even the time for lesser but economy-damaging measures has passed. And for G*d sake get the schools open.

Pedestrian Apr 15, 2021 8:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9250395)
30 minutes is actually quite a long time to spend waiting around in a pharmacy for someone who isn’t retired.

Nobody said I was "waiting around" that long. The vaccination was quite prompt but there's some paperwork to fill out (questionnaire about past reactions etc) and then you have to wait the usual 15 minutes to be sure you don't have a reaction.

And my gosh, how many minutes a day do you spend "working out"? Arguably 30 minutes spent getting a flue shot once a year is a better way to spend that 30 minutes.

Pedestrian Apr 15, 2021 8:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9250392)
Well, I’m in pretty damn good shape. I’ve also apparently had Covid and those antibodies are as good as the ones from a vaccine with respect to herd immunity.

1. You keep telling us what great shape you are in. We are suitably impressed.

2. Did you finally have the SARS-CoV-2 antibody test?

3. There is data the antibodies one gets from having infection are NOT as good as from the complete vaccination series. That's why nearly all experts are recommending even people who've had COVID get vaccinated.

Quote:

Is immunity from the vaccine stronger than natural immunity from infection?

“The first time your body sees the spike protein, it activates some immune system cells to begin to recognize and develop antibodies against that protein,” said Boslett*. The response may be similar whether that first encounter is from infection with the virus or from the first dose of the vaccine.

Studies of the mRNA vaccines suggest that one dose may offer between 50 to 80 percent protection against symptomatic COVID-19, though more data is needed, said Boslett. “We know you get some amount of protection after one dose of the vaccine or after infection with the virus, but we don’t know in either case how long that protection lasts,” she said. Some cases of reinfection have been reported after three to six months, so the protection from one dose of the vaccine also may wane in that timeframe.

“However, when you get the second dose of the vaccine, you’re further training your immune system,” said Boslett. “You’re strengthening that response from the antibody-producing B cells and you’re also activating T memory cells that stick around for much longer.” Getting both doses of the vaccine means your body is shown this spike protein multiple times in a short duration. “So that immune response might be bigger, better and longer lasting than just getting the infection one time,” she said.

Because the booster effect is so important, Boslett adds that this is why people who have had COVID-19 are still recommended to get the vaccine.
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2021/01/41...s-common-fears

*Bryn Boslett, MD, an infectious disease expert who is leading the vaccination effort at UC San Francisco

dktshb Apr 15, 2021 8:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtown,man (Post 9249398)
LOL Exactly.


I have already spent 13 months of my life living like this, I am done.

What if I die at 50? I would have spent 2% of my life inside.



At what point do you fearmongers just say "alright, this is a virus, we have to move on with our lives before we don't have the same life to move back to?" 2 more months? 6? 1 year? Never?

If you think normal people are gonna continue to put their lives on hold because of your fear, sorry, not going to happen.

Lord knows I have not put my life on hold. I have gone on road trips to multiple locations and stayed at various hotels in multiple States. I never stopped shopping and have eaten at plenty of restaurants with outdoor seating. I also have gotten together with different friends and family without masks and had friends vacation at my home. In other words I have not been the poster child for proper pandemic behavior. Fortunately I never got sick and am now a week into my second Pfizer shot.

All that said I would not go shopping in a grocery store without a mask more because I have taken risks and want to mitigate that risk to strangers. I would not eat in a crowded restaurant or go to a bar yet. I am not upset that these establishments are opening up and if adults want to frequent them so be it. Just be decent and respectable when you're in a public place that other people need to be rather than choose to be in like a grocery store post office, pharmacy etc. and wear a mask is all I ask. Oh and get vaccinated as soon as you can. I find it odd some people are not concerned about catching the virus but then are concerned about getting the vaccine because one in a million have had an adverse reaction. :koko:

twister244 Apr 15, 2021 8:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9250256)
At last some concrete data:


https://www.wsj.com/articles/cdc-ide...d=hp_lead_pos7

A few comments:

- The overall number and percentage of breakthrough cases isn't surprising and, in fact, is reassuring. Even more reassuring to me is that the CDC seems to be on top of genomic sequencing of breakthrough cases to determine whether they are viruses against which the vaccines are effective most of the time or possibly new mutant strains against which the vaccine my have significant lesser effectiveness. So far, that hasn't been the case.

- What is a bit surprising to me although maybe it shouldn't be is that 74 breakthrough cases have died. Recall that in phase 3 testing with the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, there were NO deaths among vaccinated individuals.

- Finally, 40% of the breakthrough cases were in people older than 60 whereas (by subtraction) 60% were younger than 60. Given the preponderance of older people among those so far vaccinated, this is a bit surprising. One possibility is that it's because the younger people who were vaccinated early were largely at higher than typical risk--health care workers and so on. In any case, this would seem to confirm that the vaccine works at least as well in older people as in younger in spite of their supposedly weaker immune systems.

Thanks for sharing this, and it's more than enough evidence to continue the path we are on to opening everything back up by early-mid Summer.....

No reason to suspect urban areas this Summer won't be party-central.

10023 Apr 15, 2021 9:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9250400)
Nobody said I was "waiting around" that long. The vaccination was quite prompt but there's some paperwork to fill out (questionnaire about past reactions etc) and then you have to wait the usual 15 minutes to be sure you don't have a reaction.

And my gosh, how many minutes a day do you spend "working out"? Arguably 30 minutes spent getting a flue shot once a year is a better way to spend that 30 minutes.

Well no, not for me it isn’t. I can’t even remember the last time I had flu and the exercise is part of the reason why.

iheartthed Apr 15, 2021 9:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9250426)
Well no, not for me it isn’t. I can’t even remember the last time I had flu and the exercise is part of the reason why.

Exercise doesn't prevent the flu, nor does it prevent COVID. Also, I'm reasonably certain that I got infected with the flu at the gym when I had it a couple of years ago. Gyms are germ factories.

SteveD Apr 15, 2021 9:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9250426)
Well no, not for me it isn’t. I can’t even remember the last time I had flu and the exercise is part of the reason why.

I get the flu shot every year. Two or three years ago I got the flu shot as usual and developed a nagging cough that I couldn't shake. I eventually went to my Doc and he swabbed my throat and came back into the examining room a few minutes later wearing a mask, announcing that I had the flu. I hadn't even suspected it. Whichever year that was the prevailing strain was particularly virulent and he said if I hadn't gotten the flu shot I undoubtedly would have been in the hospital. I'm 58 now, so I would have been mid 50's at the time. Healthy, non smoker, not obese.

JManc Apr 15, 2021 9:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9250392)
Well, I’m in pretty damn good shape. I’ve also apparently had Covid and those antibodies are as good as the ones from a vaccine with respect to herd immunity.

As am I but a lot of people our ages are not so it's disingenuous to claim our age groups don't need vaccinations because we ourselves simply happen to be fit/ healthy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9250395)
30 minutes is actually quite a long time to spend waiting around in a pharmacy for someone who isn’t retired.

Man, you are not that important or busy that you can't wait a half hour to get a vaccine once a year.

dktshb Apr 15, 2021 9:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9250446)
As am I but a lot of people our ages are not so it's disingenuous to claim our age groups don't need vaccinations because we ourselves simply happen to be fit/ healthy.



Man, you are not that important or busy that you can't wait a half hour to get a vaccine once a year.

I know. Reading all his messages I have come to conclude that apparently there is a "cult of ignorance" in the United Kingdom too.

Pedestrian Apr 15, 2021 10:15 PM

Quote:

Indoor Venues Can Reopen in San Francisco, Plus…
April 14, 2021

As of Thursday, April 15, 2021, indoor live-audience events, performances and private events (such as conferences and receptions) will be allowed to resume in San Francisco, albeit at reduced capacities, and existing restrictions on other activities and gatherings will be further relaxed.

Indoor ticketed and seated events will be allowed to operate at up to 35% capacity, “as long as all participants keep their masks on except when eating or drinking in designated concessions areas away from their seats, distancing requirements can be met, and participants show proof of vaccination or a negative COVID-19 test before they enter the venue.”

In addition, venues will be allowed to create “vaccinated-only sections” with relaxed distancing requirements. And for venues operating at 15% capacity or less, with no more than 200 people in total, proof of vaccination or a negative test result will not be required.

Private events, such as meetings, conventions, and receptions, may also resume being held indoors, with up to 150 participants, as long as there is assigned seating and proof of vaccination or a negative COVID-19 test for all participants. Such events may also be held outdoors, with the same guidelines in place, with up to 300 people, or with up to 100 people without proof of vaccination or a negative COVID-19 test result for the participants.

Outdoor ticketed venues for live-audience events and performances will be allowed to expand capacity up to 50%, with proof of vaccination or a negative COVID-19 test result required if there are 4,000 or more audience members (or 100 or more audience members and food and beverages are served). In all cases, attendees must continue to wear facial coverings for the duration of all events, except when eating or drinking. And as with indoor venues, outdoor venues may create vaccinated-only sections with relaxed distancing restrictions.

While outdoor drinking and dining allowances for restaurants and bars will be expanded to allow for up to 8 people per table, and without any limitation on the number of households represented, indoor bars, wineries, breweries and distilleries that do not serve bona fide meals will remain closed.

Community centers serving seniors and adult day care will also be able to reopen to 25% capacity.

And while “strongly discouraged,” small indoor social gatherings of up to 25 people, “with face coverings on at all times” and no food or beverages being served, will be allowed, as will outdoor gatherings of up to 50 people (again with face coverings and distancing, or up to 25 people if food or drink is being consumed).
https://socketsite.com/archives/2021...nly-areas.html

"4,000 or more audience members (or 100 or more audience members and food and beverages are served)"--sounds like baseball, football, soccer to me.

In also like that there's going to be so much incentive to get vaccinated for people of all ages. CA is now vaccinating everyone 16 and above.

Pedestrian Apr 15, 2021 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9250446)
Man, you are not that important or busy that you can't wait a half hour to get a vaccine once a year.

Like I said, 30 minutes wasn't spent waiting. It was total time in and out including the 15 minutes required to be sure there was no allergic reaction--something no reputable place would allow you to avoid.

10023 Apr 15, 2021 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dktshb (Post 9250468)
I know. Reading all his messages I have come to conclude that apparently there is a "cult of ignorance" in the United Kingdom too.

No, it’s that people should be perfectly capable of assessing their own risk and acting accordingly.

The first lockdowns in March of last year made sense because we didn’t quite know what we were dealing with. By May or June we did and precautions should have been voluntary and based on individual risk.

The subsequent rules (even when restaurants/pubs in the UK were open from late July to October, they were not enjoyable) and then 6 more months of lockdowns were inexcusable and caused by the inability or unwillingness of the old or otherwise vulnerable to take appropriate precautions. And the media has pushed lies and engineered panic in order to keep people with nothing to worry about compliant. We didn’t need lockdowns, we needed common sense.

Pedestrian Apr 15, 2021 10:45 PM

Quote:

U.S. retail sales post largest gain in 10 months; weekly jobless claims fall
BY LUCIA MUTIKANI, REUTERS - 12:31 PM ET 4/15/2021

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. retail sales rose by the most in 10 months in March as Americans received additional pandemic relief checks from the government and increased COVID-19 vaccinations allowed broader economic re-engagement, cementing expectations for robust growth in the first quarter.

The brightening economic prospects were underscored by other data on Thursday showing first-time claims for unemployment benefits tumbled last week to the lowest level since March 2020, when mandatory closures of nonessential businesses were enforced to slow the spread of the first COVID-19 wave.

Though output at factories rebounded modestly last month amid a global semi-conductor chip shortage that is hurting automobile plants, manufacturing remains underpinned by the strong domestic demand. The upbeat data, which followed on the heels of recent reports showing inflation heating up, will likely not shift the Federal Reserve's ultra-easy monetary policy stance . . . .
https://www.fidelity.com/news/articl...2C21PQ-OUSBS_1

jtown,man Apr 15, 2021 10:53 PM

Working out is key to avoiding Covid. No, going to the gym tomorrow isn't going to help you. But the data are clear: being overweight is a HUGE factor in getting a bad case of Covid.

To the earlier question about knowing people that don't want the vaccine. Almost everyone back in Arkansas that I know isn't. I don't think any of my family is to be honest. The doorman in the my building says he isn't getting it.

Compare this to kids in my classes at school. They are driving 4 hours south to get a vaccine.

Pedestrian Apr 15, 2021 11:00 PM

Quote:

Many U.S. states and cities have a growing surplus of Covid-19 vaccines as a significant percentage of Americans choose not to be inoculated. Overall, U.S. demand remains strong with 37% of people having gotten at least one dose, making the country one of the world’s leaders in vaccinations. Unfortunately, the U.S. is the world leader when it comes to coronavirus infections. And in certain U.S. states, as many as one in three shots are going unused. Those who refuse one are potentially putting those who do not at risk: Until herd immunity is reached, the chance that a new variant could circumvent existing vaccines remains real. Here is the latest on the pandemic. —David E. Rovella
Bloomberg Evening Briefing

I actually think this is over-reaction. What is true is that in certain states as much as ⅓ of the vaccine supply has not YET been used (Georgia) however it's an open question whether that's due to vaccine hesitancy or inefficiency on the part of the state's roll-out. Georgia has been a laggard from the beginning. Most states seemed to have used an average of around 80% of the vaccine they have been provided and the remaining doses are reserved in most cases as "second doses" for those who've received only the first Moderna or Pfizer dose.

In the Bay Area, now that everyone 16 and over is eligible, appointments seem to be going quickly:

COVID vaccine hunters say Bay Area slots are going quickly as 'open season' arrives

One the other hand, in Arizona I do note the daily injections seem stuck in the upper 50,000s while nationally they keep going higher. I don't know if this is because of supply limitations or because your tough, independent Arizonan wants to face the virus without help. It is true that Arizona has a bit more vaccine on hand than average at 21.4% of what it has been provided.

Pedestrian Apr 15, 2021 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtown,man (Post 9250582)
Working out is key to avoiding Covid. No, going to the gym tomorrow isn't going to help you. But the data are clear: being overweight is a HUGE factor in getting a bad case of Covid.

To the earlier question about knowing people that don't want the vaccine. Almost everyone back in Arkansas that I know isn't. I don't think any of my family is to be honest. The doorman in the my building says he isn't getting it.

Compare this to kids in my classes at school. They are driving 4 hours south to get a vaccine.

Overweight makes the illness worse if you get it so in that sense it helps prevent SYMPTOMATIC COVID, but there's no data it prevents asymptomatic infection and it's asymptomatic infection that the rest of us need to be concerned with. If you are infected, whether symptomatic or not, you are a possible place for a mutation to occur and you can give it to someone who will have a tougher time with it.

Don't use being in what you think is good shape be an excuse not to get vaccinated as 10023 is doing.

Finally, if what you say about the prevalent attitude in Chicago is true, I'm just glad I don't live there. I want my Uber driver to be vaccinated. I want everyone I share the halls of my building to be vaccinated. If an employee of my building refused, I'd want management to require frequent tests of that person. And I would stay out of indoor spaces shared with friends and family who refuse and I would tell them why point blank.

chris08876 Apr 15, 2021 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9250221)
56 is old? Holy shit!

And I disagree that we should be targeting any age group for vaccination. All adults should be encouraged to get the shots. I’m not as irrationally freaked about variants as some others are, but we DO have to acknowledge that as long as the viral load is high in the public, the virus will gradually evolve into resistant strains. Keeping viral levels low within the population is the best way to dramatically slow that process down.

Old is in the mind. So long as the mind is sharp... one never ages. Skin... just the exoskeleton to the individual. Nothing but a conglomeration of cells and collagen. But the mind... the mind is the electrostatic web that defines the person. So long as the branches that radiate remain strong between the left and right hemispheres, one does not age. Bones may grow brittle and skin contracting like desecration cracks in the desert but the game of life is best explored via perception and neuroplasticity.

;)

56 if anything, is intellectually is younger and fresher. More experiences, more long term memories stored. More overall plasticity of the natural world and past events.

Which is why neurodegenerative diseases are so tragic. Better to lose a leg than to degenerate into long-term memory inhibition that is irreversible.

chris08876 Apr 15, 2021 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtown,man (Post 9250582)
Working out is key to avoiding Covid. No, going to the gym tomorrow isn't going to help you. But the data are clear: being overweight is a HUGE factor in getting a bad case of Covid.

To the earlier question about knowing people that don't want the vaccine. Almost everyone back in Arkansas that I know isn't. I don't think any of my family is to be honest. The doorman in the my building says he isn't getting it.

Compare this to kids in my classes at school. They are driving 4 hours south to get a vaccine.

I had to drive 80 miles for mine. But I kind of woke up today for the 2nd shot happy. Part of history. A historical moment shared amongst millions of other. A sort of viral WW1 or WW2 moment of collective gratification that the war is almost over. The picture of the sailor kissing the lady in Times Square is best defined in 2021 as the fella getting the shot by a the sailor of our times, the nurses and doctors and scientists.

iheartthed Apr 15, 2021 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9250601)
Overweight makes the illness worse if you get it so in that sense it helps prevent SYMPTOMATIC COVID, but there's no data it prevents asymptomatic infection and it's asymptomatic infection that the rest of us need to be concerned with. If you are infected, whether symptomatic or not, you are a possible place for a mutation to occur and you can give it to someone who will have a tougher time with it.

Don't use being in what you think is good shape be an excuse not to get vaccinated as 10023 is doing.

Finally, if what you say about the prevalent attitude in Chicago is true, I'm just glad I don't live there. I want my Uber driver to be vaccinated. I want everyone I share the halls of my building to be vaccinated. If an employee of my building refused, I'd want management to require frequent tests of that person. And I would stay out of indoor spaces shared with friends and family who refuse and I would tell them why point blank.

Also, being overweight might make a person statistically more likely to have a severe case of COVID, but being healthy and in shape does not mean there is no risk of severe illness or death. Just like being overweight might make you statistically more likely to die in the event of a car accident, but that doesn't mean that car accidents don't pose a major risk to people who are in shape.

10023 Apr 16, 2021 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9250601)
Overweight makes the illness worse if you get it so in that sense it helps prevent SYMPTOMATIC COVID, but there's no data it prevents asymptomatic infection and it's asymptomatic infection that the rest of us need to be concerned with. If you are infected, whether symptomatic or not, you are a possible place for a mutation to occur and you can give it to someone who will have a tougher time with it.

Don't use being in what you think is good shape be an excuse not to get vaccinated as 10023 is doing.

Finally, if what you say about the prevalent attitude in Chicago is true, I'm just glad I don't live there. I want my Uber driver to be vaccinated. I want everyone I share the halls of my building to be vaccinated. If an employee of my building refused, I'd want management to require frequent tests of that person. And I would stay out of indoor spaces shared with friends and family who refuse and I would tell them why point blank.

You and I would never come into contact in the “wild”. We wouldn’t go to any of the same places (you keep bringing up the example of grocery stores, but only because you won’t go during senior citizen hours).

If I’m going to have asymptomatic Covid but you are at risk of illness, should (a) both of us be confined to our homes with restaurants, bars, gyms and retail closed; or (b) you avoid such places while I go about my life in as normal a manner as possible?

The answer is clearly (b), and anyone who supports (a) is doing so out of either an unjustified degree of concern or spite (this is my father’s attitude - basically, “why should the young get to have fun if I can’t”). Either way, screw them.

SlidellWx Apr 16, 2021 1:09 AM

Latest data by parish for Louisiana showing percent of the 18+ population vaccinated. New Orleans crossed the 50% line for those receiving at least one dose and having a fairly high degree of protection from infection. Current positive rate is 0.5% in the city. Getting pretty darn close to herd immunity in the city.

The three principle parishes of metro New Orleans (Orleans, Jefferson, St. Tammany) all have more than 1 out of 3 adults fully vaccinated.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EzCCfuNV...jpg&name=small
courtesy @Crimealytics

someone123 Apr 16, 2021 1:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9250665)
If I’m going to have asymptomatic Covid but you are at risk of illness, should (a) both of us be confined to our homes with restaurants, bars, gyms and retail closed; or (b) you avoid such places while I go about my life in as normal a manner as possible?

Haven't the older people in the US mostly gotten a chance to get vaccinated by now, or soon will have a chance and so this scenario is basically out of date? If they elected not to get vaccinated I don't know why they would feel entitled to demand that others be vaccinated or stay out of shared indoor spaces. If they did get vaccinated, they are not in fact at high risk anymore.

craigs Apr 16, 2021 2:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9250665)
If I’m going to have asymptomatic Covid . . .

. . . most people in such a scenario would feel they should wear a mask and maintain proper distance from others when in public, but basic brats will insist that everyone else must bear their light burden for them.

SIGSEGV Apr 16, 2021 2:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by homebucket (Post 9250065)
Might be a dumb question but since you’re a physicist by trade, is it even theoretically possible to implant a chip into someone via a vehicle like a clear, colorless solution injected intramuscularly? I know things like valves and sensors can be implanted through major arteries and veins but you can actually see those with your naked eye.

It's possible to make nanochips so small that they probably can't readily be seen by the naked eye, but as far as I know they can't really do too much with current technology. See e.g. https://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-54327412

Pedestrian Apr 16, 2021 6:56 AM

There has been some discussion of irrational mutant fears here. So today, from the CEO of Pfizer:

Quote:

Annual Covid-19 Vaccine Booster Shots Likely Needed, Pfizer CEO Says
By Jared S. Hopkins
Updated April 15, 2021 7:57 pm ET

Pfizer Inc. Chief Executive Albert Bourla said it is likely that people who receive Covid-19 vaccines will need booster shots within a year afterward, and then annual vaccinations, to maintain protection against the virus as it evolves.

“The variants will play a key role. It is extremely important to suppress the pool of people that can be susceptible to the virus,” Mr. Bourla said during a virtual event hosted by CVS Health Corp. that aired Thursday but was recorded April 1.

“There are vaccines like polio where one dose is enough,” Mr. Bourla said. “And there are vaccines like flu that you need every year. The Covid virus looks more like the influenza virus than the polio virus.”

More research is required to confirm the need for annual booster shots, he said. But he added that the need appeared likely given research so far.

. . . New shots or boosters might be necessary, vaccine experts say, if the virus mutates significantly enough . . . .

In February, Pfizer and BioNTech began a study testing in people whether a third dose of the companies’ inoculation can protect against emerging variant strains.

Moderna Inc. executives have also said they expect boosters to be needed to ensure protection lasts in vaccinated people. The company recently started studying whether a booster shot of its two-dose vaccine is effective against a variant of the virus.

Countries with high vaccination rates will be ready to shift their focus to boosters possibly at the end of this year, Moderna said during a company vaccine event this week. Moderna President Stephen Hoge said it is safe to assume boosters would be needed “annually, probably seasonally, even though the pandemic is raging in a nonseasonal way” . . . .
https://www.wsj.com/articles/annual-...d=hp_lead_pos7

As I've explained, I am perhaps a little more sanguine than these biotech CEOs in that I think if the current vaccines work as well as they seem to we could suppress infection rates, and hence viral mutation rates, enough to make the rise of new mutant strains a pretty rare event. But that would take most people in the developed world putting aside their vaccine hesitancy and it would take a massive campaign to get the developing world vaccinated. I don't think we'll be able to do that in one year but maybe in 3-5.

Pedestrian Apr 16, 2021 7:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by homebucket (Post 9250065)
Might be a dumb question but since you’re a physicist by trade, is it even theoretically possible to implant a chip into someone via a vehicle like a clear, colorless solution injected intramuscularly? I know things like valves and sensors can be implanted through major arteries and veins but you can actually see those with your naked eye.

Amazing things are being done with nanoparticles, perhaps more with organic ones than with inorganic. For example:

Quote:

When atherosclerosis occurs in coronary arteries, blockages due to plaque or calcification-induced ruptures can lead to a clot, cutting blood flow to the heart, which is the cause of most heart attacks. When the condition occurs in the vessels leading to the brain, it can cause a stroke.

"An artery doesn't need to be 80 percent blocked to be dangerous. An artery with 45% blockage by plaques could be more rupture-prone," Chung said. "Just because it's a big plaque doesn't necessarily mean it's an unstable plaque."

Chung said that when small calcium deposits, called microcalcifications, form within arterial plaques, the plaque can become rupture prone.

However, identifying whether blood vessel calcification is unstable and likely to rupture is particularly difficult using traditional CT and MRI scanning methods, or angiography, which has other risks.

"Angiography requires the use of catheters that are invasive and have inherent risks of tissue damage," said Chin, the lead author. "CT scans on the other hand, involve ionizing radiation which can cause other detrimental effects to tissue."

Chung said that the resolution limitations of traditional imaging offers doctors a "bird's eye view" of larger-sized calcification, which may not necessarily be dangerous. "If the calcification is on the micro scale, it can be harder to pick out," she said.

The research team developed a nanoparticle, known as a micelle, which attaches itself and lights up calcification to make it easier for smaller blockages that are prone to rupture to be seen during imaging.

Chin said the micelles are able to specifically target hydroxyapatite, a unique form of calcium present in arteries and atherosclerotic plaques.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1209161147.htm

or

Quote:

Michigan State University and Stanford University scientists have invented a nanoparticle that eats away -- from the inside out -- portions of plaques that cause heart attacks.

Bryan Smith, associate professor of biomedical engineering at MSU, and a team of scientists created a "Trojan Horse" nanoparticle that can be directed to eat debris, reducing and stabilizing plaque. The discovery could be a potential treatment for atherosclerosis, a leading cause of death in the United States.

The results, published in the current issue of Nature Nanotechnology, showcases the nanoparticle that homes in on atherosclerotic plaque due to its high selectivity to a particular immune cell type -- monocytes and macrophages. Once inside the macrophages in those plaques, it delivers a drug agent that stimulates the cell to engulf and eat cellular debris. Basically, it removes the diseased/dead cells in the plaque core. By reinvigorating the macrophages, plaque size is reduced and stabilized.

Smith said that future clinical trials on the nanoparticle are expected to reduce the risk of most types of heart attacks, with minimal side effects due to the unprecedented selectivity of the nanodrug.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0128114720.htm

There are actually quite a few experimental uses of nanoparticles in biomedicine now.

By definition, a nanoparticle is any particle less than 100 nanometers in size. I'm pretty sure no one could see that. It might make the fluid it's in appear cloudy if the concentration is high enough.

But I'm wondering why you ask. What use are you thinking of in relation to COVID?

SIGSEGV Apr 16, 2021 7:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9250993)
Amazing things are being done with nanoparticles, perhaps more with organic ones than with inorganic. For example:


https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1209161147.htm

or


https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0128114720.htm

There are actually quite a few experimental uses of nanoparticles in biomedicine now.

By definition, a nanoparticle is any particle less than 100 nanometers in size. I'm pretty sure no one could see that. It might make the fluid it's in appear cloudy if the concentration is high enough.

But I'm wondering why you ask. What use are you thinking of in relation to COVID?

I imagine homebucket is wondering if anti-vaxxers irrational fear of a Bill Gates microchip is technically plausible at all.

nito Apr 16, 2021 8:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigs (Post 9250821)
. . . most people in such a scenario would feel they should wear a mask and maintain proper distance from others when in public, but basic brats will insist that everyone else must bear their light burden for them.

Exactly. If we had took a zero-tolerance approach to this pandemic rather than enable selfishness to take root we’d be well over this by now. Sadly, the same recurring minority selfish/ignorant elements within western society let down everyone and knowingly/unknowingly became enablers/collaborators to the virus.

Also, why is it that each time 10023 mentions his ”good shape”, the more I am thinking of the Aesop Fable The Boy Who Cried Wolf

JManc Apr 16, 2021 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9250665)
You and I would never come into contact in the “wild”. We wouldn’t go to any of the same places (you keep bringing up the example of grocery stores, but only because you won’t go during senior citizen hours).

If I’m going to have asymptomatic Covid but you are at risk of illness, should (a) both of us be confined to our homes with restaurants, bars, gyms and retail closed; or (b) you avoid such places while I go about my life in as normal a manner as possible?

The answer is clearly (b), and anyone who supports (a) is doing so out of either an unjustified degree of concern or spite (this is my father’s attitude - basically, “why should the young get to have fun if I can’t”). Either way, screw them.

If you're asymptomatic (test positive), you should be confined to your house for 10-14 days regardless of pedestrian's risk factor.

the urban politician Apr 16, 2021 1:03 PM

I’m in great shape, everybody

I work out a lot, and I lift weights.

I watch videos of Arnold Schwarzenegger in the 70s training for Mr. Olympia and it motivates me. He had an amazing body! Covid ain’t got a chance against me and Arnold!

iheartthed Apr 16, 2021 3:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV (Post 9251007)
I imagine homebucket is wondering if anti-vaxxers irrational fear of a Bill Gates microchip is technically plausible at all.

Wouldn't really small microchips eventually be flushed from the system anyway? A permanent chip would have to be surgically embedded, right?

sopas ej Apr 16, 2021 3:19 PM

From KTLA 5:

High blood pressure, diabetes found to be most common underlying conditions in L.A. County COVID-19 deaths

by: Erika Martin

Posted: Apr 14, 2021 / 07:59 PM PDT / Updated: Apr 14, 2021 / 08:05 PM PDT


High blood pressure and diabetes were the most common underlying conditions found among those with comorbidities who died from COVID-19 in Los Angeles County, health officials announced Wednesday.

Having an underlying condition can strongly increase the risk of death from COVID-19, and about 85% of Angelenos who died from the virus had at least one comorbidity, which is the presence of one or more additional conditions, L.A. County public health officials said in a news release.

High blood pressure was the most common, seen in 52% of deaths. Another 41% of decedents had diabetes, and 26% had a cardiovascular disease other than hypertension, officials said.

A neurologic disease was the fourth-leading preexisting condition, noted among 21% of those who died, and 16% had chronic renal disease, according to the Department of Public Health.

“People who live with chronic illnesses suffer the worst outcomes of COVID-19 infection,” the department said in a statement. “These numbers should remind us of the importance of ensuring equitable access to preventive healthcare and the other resources that reduce people’s vulnerability to this virus.”

Those with such underlying conditions became eligible for a vaccine in California on March 15, due to their higher risk of death from the virus. Click here for more information on how to find a vaccine appointment in Southern California, where everyone over age 16 is now eligible.

Chronic illness was also a leading indicator of COVID-19 hospitalization, with about 87% of those treated for the virus in L.A. County from last August to January having at least one comorbidity.

The most common preexisting condition among hospitalized patients was cardiovascular disease, including high blood pressure, observed in 66% of patients, officials said.

That was followed by diabetes, found in 42% of people hospitalized, and 36% of those who died were obese, according to the health department figures.

Another 57 coronavirus deaths were reported in L.A. County Wednesday, raising the pandemic’s toll to 23,553.

Around 500 people were battling the virus in hospitals countywide as of Wednesday, about a quarter of them in intensive care.

But health officials pointed to one encouraging figure: With more older residents becoming fully vaccinated, the rate of hospitalization for people 80 and older has dropped by 96%.

Link: https://ktla.com/news/coronavirus/hi...vid-19-deaths/

sopas ej Apr 16, 2021 3:22 PM

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...82bac9f7_c.jpg
New Yorker

10023 Apr 16, 2021 7:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9251068)
If you're asymptomatic (test positive), you should be confined to your house for 10-14 days regardless of pedestrian's risk factor.

I’ve never had a positive test (and I’ve taken a lot of them, but sporadically). I had a positive antibody test. I actually wonder if I’ve had it more than once (quite possibly caught it skiing last February, but there was no testing then).

10023 Apr 16, 2021 7:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nito (Post 9251014)
Exactly. If we had took a zero-tolerance approach to this pandemic rather than enable selfishness to take root we’d be well over this by now. Sadly, the same recurring minority selfish/ignorant elements within western society let down everyone and knowingly/unknowingly became enablers/collaborators to the virus.

Also, why is it that each time 10023 mentions his ”good shape”, the more I am thinking of the Aesop Fable The Boy Who Cried Wolf

The bolded part is completely and utterly false.

JManc Apr 16, 2021 8:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9251545)
The bolded part is completely and utterly false.

I think had we shutdown, I mean truly shutdown for at least a month sometime last year where everything was ground to a halt and everyone stayed home, we'd probably be in better shape. That of course would be unrealistic.

jtown,man Apr 17, 2021 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 9250622)
Also, being overweight might make a person statistically more likely to have a severe case of COVID, but being healthy and in shape does not mean there is no risk of severe illness or death. Just like being overweight might make you statistically more likely to die in the event of a car accident, but that doesn't mean that car accidents don't pose a major risk to people who are in shape.

Why does everyone always claim others are saying young and healthy people CAN'T get covid and it be severe? We are simply saying they have a tiny chance. Which is true.

If overweight people are statistically more likely to get in a car wreck, that's pure happenstance in statistics. If someone is more likely to die of a virus because of being overweight, those two things are directly related.

10023 Apr 17, 2021 6:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9251581)
I think had we shutdown, I mean truly shutdown for at least a month sometime last year where everything was ground to a halt and everyone stayed home, we'd probably be in better shape. That of course would be unrealistic.

No I don’t think that’s true. It wouldn’t have eliminated the virus completely, and so long as any was circulating it would have spread again once restrictions were lifted.

It was also impossible for the US or Europe to close themselves off to the world like Australia / NZ did, nor did the same infrastructure exist for contact tracing as in say South Korea.

nito Apr 20, 2021 2:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9251545)
The bolded part is completely and utterly false.

How? Unless you have been living under a rock, there are countless democratic countries that managed to avoid the giant death counts, economic damage and mental distress that many advanced nations incurred. A combination of stupidity, administrative incompetence and outright selfishness brought about the damage that could have been mitigated against.

TWAK Apr 20, 2021 3:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtown,man (Post 9252141)
Why does everyone always claim others are saying young and healthy people CAN'T get covid and it be severe? We are simply saying they have a tiny chance. Which is true.

A 1/3 chance of getting a neurological disorder and an elevated chance of having PASC (post covid). The people I know who have post-covid were doing things like working out or heavy work while they were sick, and now they can't smell.

Quote:

If overweight people are statistically more likely to get in a car wreck, that's pure happenstance in statistics. If someone is more likely to die of a virus because of being overweight, those two things are directly related.
Each bit of fat destroys the body and can cause more problems.

iheartthed Apr 20, 2021 3:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtown,man (Post 9252141)
Why does everyone always claim others are saying young and healthy people CAN'T get covid and it be severe? We are simply saying they have a tiny chance. Which is true.

If overweight people are statistically more likely to get in a car wreck, that's pure happenstance in statistics. If someone is more likely to die of a virus because of being overweight, those two things are directly related.

No, it's not happenstance. Older people are more likely to die in the event of a a car accident than younger people for the same reason. People in poorer health are just less likely to recover from a traumatic health event.


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