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-   -   How Is Covid-19 Impacting Life in Your City? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242036)

Pedestrian Apr 6, 2020 7:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BG918 (Post 8885640)
Same story here in Denver. My good friend is a doctor that does mostly elective surgeries which have all been canceled. He may have to go on unemployment due to his sharp drop in pay. He also says the hospital he works at hasn’t seen a major influx of patients, in fact it has been rather dead as in way fewer patients than they normally would see. Who knows maybe they haven’t reached the peak yet?

This is absurd. I can understand the psychiatrists bowing out of this for lack of relevant skills, but a surgeon? I’m an internist—we used to laugh at surgeons, calling them jumped up barbers and such but we never meant it. They certainly have plenty of relevant skill for this. They can do intubations, cut downs, tracheostomies. Basically since there’s no specific treatment for this disease, a surgeon can probably manage these patients as well as anyone.

Crawford Apr 6, 2020 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 8885724)
California was one of the first states to lock down and before the state did it, the major metros did it about as early as anywhere in America (well before New York).

I don't think it's reasonable to apply causation at this point. CA and NY shut down within a few days of each other, and there are states with lower rates than CA that shut down weeks later. Then there's MI, which shut down earlier than almost all states, but has one of the highest rates. Certainly shutting down is one factor of many.

Then it's difficult to do apples-apples comparison. NY's transit system ran regular schedule until a few days ago and is still at 60-70% normal usage in working class areas. You cannot really shut down the transit system. In contrast, CA doesn't need transit, and BART was running at 10% normal usage within days of the crisis.

Crawford Apr 6, 2020 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV (Post 8885599)
Furloughing medical staff is beyond ridiculous (not blaming the hospital here, but you would think the stimulus package would have ensured hospitals are fully staffed).

Lots of medical professionals are hurting, as most have no involvement in the pandemic. I have a dermatologist and dentist in the family, and both are barely working, for obvious reasons.

Acajack Apr 6, 2020 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas ej (Post 8885694)
It's counter-intuitive to lay off/furlough healthcare workers during a pandemic. And I'm sure many in healthcare felt that their jobs were pretty secure; can you imagine? Out of work healthcare workers. .

Hospitals and health care agencies saving up money in the short term in preparation for having to pay insane overtime once this thing finally hits them?

sopas ej Apr 6, 2020 2:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8885770)
I don't think it's reasonable to apply causation at this point. CA and NY shut down within a few days of each other, and there are states with lower rates than CA that shut down weeks later. Then there's MI, which shut down earlier than almost all states, but has one of the highest rates. Certainly shutting down is one factor of many.

When did social distancing start in NY? I feel like we here in California were already told to practice social distancing pretty early; I want to say at least in late February, maybe even before that. For sure by March, restaurants were already making sure that groups of people weren't seated in adjoining tables/booths. Not to say that everyone was already doing it when we were recommended to start doing it, though. Then of course by March 19, the governor told the whole state to stay at home.

sopas ej Apr 6, 2020 2:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8885780)
Hospitals and health care agencies saving up money in the short term in preparation for having to pay insane overtime once this thing finally hits them?

You're still looking at it from a capitalist point of view. If we had a government run federally funded national health care system, it would be a different story, no? Our postal service is a federal service funded by the federal government; when deliveries slow down during a slow season, you don't hear of postal workers getting laid off or furloughed.

Makes me wonder if VA healthcare workers are being furloughed/laid off? If anything I'd like to think they were ramping up.

Thinking about it now, I realize the US does have socialized medicine: The VA. But it's only for the warrior class. Only one caste in the US has access to government healthcare.

Acajack Apr 6, 2020 3:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas ej (Post 8885839)
You're still looking at it from a capitalist point of view. If we had a government run federally funded national health care system, it would be a different story, no? Our postal service is a federal service funded by the federal government; when deliveries slow down during a slow season, you don't hear of postal workers getting laid off or furloughed.

Makes me wonder if VA healthcare workers are being furloughed/laid off? If anything I'd like to think they were ramping up.

Thinking about it now, I realize the US does have socialized medicine: The VA. But it's only for the warrior class. Only one caste in the US has access to government healthcare.

I am looking at it from a capitalist point of view because that's totally the appropriate view to have when looking at healthcare in the U.S.

My country has universal healthcare.

The comments I made don't reflect my personal philosophy on this matter. Only the reality in the U.S.

sopas ej Apr 6, 2020 3:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8885895)
I am looking at it from a capitalist point of view because that's totally the appropriate view to have when looking at healthcare in the U.S.

My country has universal healthcare.

The comments I made don't reflect my personal philosophy on this matter. Only the reality in the U.S.

Again, this pandemic just exposes the flaw(s) of the US healthcare system of private for-profit health insurance. That was my point. From a medical and well-being of the population standpoint, it makes no sense to furlough and/or lay off healthcare workers in the middle of a pandemic.

Pedestrian Apr 6, 2020 5:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8885770)
I don't think it's reasonable to apply causation at this point. CA and NY shut down within a few days of each other, and there are states with lower rates than CA that shut down weeks later. Then there's MI, which shut down earlier than almost all states, but has one of the highest rates. Certainly shutting down is one factor of many.

Then it's difficult to do apples-apples comparison. NY's transit system ran regular schedule until a few days ago and is still at 60-70% normal usage in working class areas. You cannot really shut down the transit system. In contrast, CA doesn't need transit, and BART was running at 10% normal usage within days of the crisis.

The states did but not the metros. In CA the urban cities and counties led the state.

Maybe in NY you can’t shut down the transit system but San Francisco virtually did over the weekend. Partly it’s an aspect of aggressive distancing but also it’s because too many drivers weren’t showing up for work. And it’s just false that in the city you don’t need transit. I don’t have a car there. My friends don’t have cars there. The reason we may not need transit is because Uber has been so ubiquitous and cheap but that may be changing even without coronavirus. The blue collar work force of the city really does depend on transit.

SIGSEGV Apr 6, 2020 5:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 8885726)
This is absurd. I can understand the psychiatrists bowing out of this for lack of relevant skills, but a surgeon? I’m an internist—we used to laugh at surgeons, calling them jumped up barbers and such but we never meant it. They certainly have plenty of relevant skill for this. They can do intubations, cut downs, tracheostomies. Basically since there’s no specific treatment for this disease, a surgeon can probably manage these patients as well as anyone.

Yeah and psychiatrists can do telemedicine better than just about anyone else. Illinois at least has required that insurers fully cover telemedicine for behavioral helath.

Pedestrian Apr 6, 2020 5:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8885772)
Lots of medical professionals are hurting, as most have no involvement in the pandemic. I have a dermatologist and dentist in the family, and both are barely working, for obvious reasons.

I don’t have any sympathy for them. I bet they could go to work in 5 minutes helping out in the epidemic. NY and other states, including CA which has much less need, are seeking any licensed healthcare provider. If the folks in your family aren’t working it’s by choice. I might have made the same choice. The economic loss might be worth the physical safety to them. But lets not shed any tears.

Pedestrian Apr 6, 2020 5:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas ej (Post 8885839)
You're still looking at it from a capitalist point of view. If we had a government run federally funded national health care system, it would be a different story, no? Our postal service is a federal service funded by the federal government; when deliveries slow down during a slow season, you don't hear of postal workers getting laid off or furloughed.

Makes me wonder if VA healthcare workers are being furloughed/laid off? If anything I'd like to think they were ramping up.

Thinking about it now, I realize the US does have socialized medicine: The VA. But it's only for the warrior class. Only one caste in the US has access to government healthcare.

Any doctor out of work right now it’s by personal choice. Don’t blame the economic system. CA and NY are graduating medical and nursing students early, handing them licenses and putting them to work.. CA (and probably NY) is also calling any healthcare professional who retired less than 5 years ago and offering to restore their active license, waive the continuing education and other requirements and put them to work. The military is activating Individual Ready Reserve healthcare professionals of all specialties.

Dermatologists, psychiatrists and the rest standing aside are doing it purely because they choose not to wade into the maelstrom.

Now look at a “socialized” system like transit in San Francisco. Over the weekend they shut down most routes because so many drivers weren’t showing up for work. In a socialized healthcare system, the same people bowing out for reasons of their own physical safety might well still be doing so. If any licensed or recently licensed physician in the US isn’t involved in this under the system we have, there’s a good chance they wouldn’t be under any other. . . Because they don’t want to be.

Someday when a currently youngish dermatologist’s grandchildren ask him or her “what did you do in the coronavirus pandemic, Gramps?” They’ll have to say, “I sat home in my pajamas.”

Crawford Apr 6, 2020 5:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 8886012)
I don’t have any sympathy for them. I bet they could go to work in 5 minutes helping out in the epidemic. NY and other states, including CA which has much less need, are seeking any licensed healthcare provider. If the folks in your family aren’t working it’s by choice. I might have made the same choice. The economic loss might be worth the physical safety to them. But lets not shed any tears.

I'm not implying they're deserving of sympathy. They make very good money and will be fine. Just saying that many medical professionals have no involvement in the crisis, and probably don't have much to contribute.

Most dermatologists make their money off women's (and increasingly men's) vanity, with an long menu of cosmetic procedures, like lasers, fillers, etc. There are women who spend a couple grand a month at their dermatologist. There are $500 creams and $1,000 laser touchups. Most dentists are just checking teeth and filling cavities. They serve no obvious purpose in fighting Covid 19.

sopas ej Apr 6, 2020 6:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 8886023)
Any doctor out of work right now it’s by personal choice. Don’t blame the economic system. CA and NY are graduating medical and nursing students early, handing them licenses and putting them to work.. CA (and probably NY) is also calling any healthcare professional who retired less than 5 years ago and offering to restore their active license, waive the continuing education and other requirements and put them to work. The military is activating Individual Ready Reserve healthcare professionals of all specialties.

Dermatologists, psychiatrists and the rest standing aside are doing it purely because they choose not to wade into the maelstrom.

Now look at a “socialized” system like transit in San Francisco. Over the weekend they shut down most routes because so many drivers weren’t showing up for work. In a socialized healthcare system, the same people bowing out for reasons of their own physical safety might well still be doing so. If any licensed or recently licensed physician in the US isn’t involved in this under the system we have, there’s a good chance they wouldn’t be under any other. . . Because they don’t want to be.

Someday when a currently youngish dermatologist’s grandchildren ask him or her “what did you do in the coronavirus pandemic, Gramps?” They’ll have to say, “I sat home in my pajamas.”

Did SF MUNI really shut down some routes because drivers weren't showing up to work, or was it due to the drop in ridership because of the COVID-19 pandemic? I know that MUNI trains stopped running (which surprised me!) because of the pandemic, but bus service is filling in that gap: https://sf.streetsblog.org/2020/03/2...ains-march-30/

Here in LA, Metro is still running buses and trains because people still rely on them, even though ridership has taken a blow because of the pandemic. The schedules are drastically altered, though; I know the Metro Gold Line, which runs through my town of South Pasadena, now has 12 minute gaps during what would be rush hour, and 20 minute gaps outside of rush hour. I think service ends an hour or 2 earlier, too. Not as many people on the buses, I see mainly old people and handicapped people taking the bus, but boarding now must be done through the rear door only, and drivers are wearing masks and have that plastic barrier between themselves and the front door.

In LA County, many other cities have their own transit systems which overlap with LA County Metro; the city of Carson has stopped all of their buses, and has asked Metro to do the same, to help stop the spread of COVID-19, but I think that's ridiculous. Like I said, people are still taking transit, and if Metro were to stop running all of their buses and trains, it would be an added hardship for many.

Pedestrian Apr 6, 2020 6:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8886042)
I'm not implying they're deserving of sympathy. They make very good money and will be fine. Just saying that many medical professionals have no involvement in the crisis, and probably don't have much to contribute.

Most dermatologists make their money off women's (and increasingly men's) vanity, with an long menu of cosmetic procedures, like lasers, fillers, etc. There are women who spend a couple grand a month at their dermatologist. There are $500 creams and $1,000 laser touchups. Most dentists are just checking teeth and filling cavities. They serve no obvious purpose in fighting Covid 19.

They have at least as much to contribute as a just-graduated medical student with no on-the-job-traing. Cosmetic surgery is surgery and requires all the same skills as any other kind. If they can start an IV, hang fluids, do chest compressions if somebody codes they can be of help.

My entire life I've listened to whining from dermatolgists, radiologists and some psychiatrists trying to bow out of the less pleasant parts of their chosen profession because they'd rather work regular hours and coin money. I'm not buying it. If they can't help in an emergency, they have no business doing any invasive procedure, whether with scalpel or laser (or dental drill for that matter), on any human being. Even a dentist injecting a local anesthetic into someone's jaw can induce anaphylaxis that could be life threatening and if they don't know how to manage it, they don't deserve to do that kind of work.

Pedestrian Apr 6, 2020 6:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas ej (Post 8886066)
Did SF MUNI really shut down some routes because drivers weren't showing up to work, or was it due to the drop in ridership because of the COVID-19 pandemic? I know that MUNI trains stopped running (which surprised me!) because of the pandemic, but bus service is filling in that gap: https://sf.streetsblog.org/2020/03/2...ains-march-30/

Quote:

The elimination of service on 51 Muni lines is needed because roughly 40% of the citywide transit system’s bus drivers are expected to be out because of the coronavirus outbreak, said Jeffrey Tumlin, the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency’s transportation director.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...s-15181917.php

Fabulous comment section re Muni: https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/muni...than-70-lines/

BG918 Apr 6, 2020 6:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8886042)
I'm not implying they're deserving of sympathy. They make very good money and will be fine. Just saying that many medical professionals have no involvement in the crisis, and probably don't have much to contribute.

Most dermatologists make their money off women's (and increasingly men's) vanity, with an long menu of cosmetic procedures, like lasers, fillers, etc. There are women who spend a couple grand a month at their dermatologist. There are $500 creams and $1,000 laser touchups. Most dentists are just checking teeth and filling cavities. They serve no obvious purpose in fighting Covid 19.

Exactly, just because you're a "healthcare professional" doesn't mean you can necessarily help fight COVID. Many private hospitals and clinics are financially built on elective procedures, and there aren't very many of those happening right now. So absolutely there will be doctors, nurses and support staff laid off or furloughed across the country in large numbers even during this pandemic.

JManc Apr 6, 2020 7:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BG918 (Post 8886104)
Exactly, just because you're a "healthcare professional" doesn't mean you can necessarily help fight COVID. Many private hospitals and clinics are financially built on elective procedures, and there aren't very many of those happening right now. So absolutely there will be doctors, nurses and support staff laid off or furloughed across the country in large numbers even during this pandemic.

I am sure a dentist, plastic surgeon, dermatologist could provide basic triage/ medical treatment in a crisis situation. Especially an MD who all go through the same medical school training. It's the residency where they specialize. (pedestrian?)

Crawford Apr 6, 2020 7:25 PM

Even dentists have the same first year training as MDs, I believe. My sis got her dentistry degree at University of Michigan, and I think first year classes were conducted jointly.

No clue if that actually means they can provide support during this crisis, though.

sopas ej Apr 6, 2020 7:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 8886069)

I couldn't read that SF Chronicle article...

But I guess I had misunderstood you; I interpreted your comment incorrectly, I thought you had said drivers just decided that they weren't going to show up to work, when in actuality, they started to self-quarantine, and some have conditions that make them especially vulnerable:

From the Muni website (sfmta.com):

Muni Prepares to Deliver Essential Trips Only
Quote:

In the rapidly changing environment caused by COVID-19, the SFMTA is making additional updates to Muni service. While ridership has fallen significantly, our bus operators still serve approximately 100,000 passengers a day – getting nurses, cooks, custodians, and other essential workers to their jobs. The SFMTA has instituted some of the strongest health protections for our operators, mechanics, car cleaners and customers to minimize risk of transmission on our buses. These efforts have been paired with our continued effort to maintain regular service, so remaining essential workers have the space to maintain recommended distances on Muni.

However, it has become increasingly difficult to continue delivering service on our current network due to operator availability and the changing trip needs of the community.  Following public health guidance, there are operators in self-quarantine out of an abundance of caution, while others have conditions that make them especially vulnerable. We are expecting over 40% of our operators to be out in the coming week. Remaining operators will continue to be on the job doing the heroic work of keeping San Francisco moving during this crisis.

In order to maintain service levels to provide social distance, we must focus our available resources on the lines that most critically serve essential trips. This means temporarily reducing Muni service, and prioritizing routes in most critical need during the pandemic.

Our priority is to be fully transparent with the community. Our goal is to restore normal service as quickly as possible. However, in the interim, we will prioritize our available resources based on connections to medical facilities, Muni’s Equity Strategy, and data from customer travel patterns we’ve observed during the COVID-19 shelter-in-place order. In order to maintain frequency, and sufficient social distance on these services, we will continue to operate 17 routes, while temporarily eliminating services on others.


Link: https://www.sfmta.com/blog/muni-prep...ial-trips-only


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