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esquire Jan 11, 2022 4:32 PM

I get the impression that the tipping culture has ported over from the USA where bar/restaurant staff have a differential (lower) minimum wage and require tips to survive. In Canada everyone gets the minimum wage which I obviously understand is not that generous but it's a far cry from many US states where it's $2.13 an hour for tipped employees.

Innsertnamehere Jan 11, 2022 4:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport (Post 9499323)
tipping has gotten out of hand. It used to be 15% (before taxes!!) only for exceptional service. I notice that out of the "helpful" options provided by payment systems, that 15% (including taxes) is the lowest option (nudging people into 18% or 25% or whatnot).

Nobody wants to be the cheapo in front of the server, so they will go with 18% out of social desirability bias.

most places in Toronto from my experience don't even give a quick select option of 15%, and always, always, always calculate including taxes.

I absolutely refuse to tip on takeout personally, and still tip 15% most times, though I admit it includes taxes. I'm also not afraid to leave no tip for bad service.

Agreed that tipping is getting out of hand, and is part of the reason I think people are avoiding restaurants more. Regarding wages, Ontario recently eliminated the lower minimum wage for servers so they really don't have an excuse any more. Even if they get $0 in tips all night long they are walking out with not that bad of a wage. On a typical night even with basic tips they can probably expect an excellent take-home pay.

contrary to popular belief I believe minimum wage is also near it's record highs even inflation adjusted. *especially* for servers as they don't have their own lower minimum now.

Acajack Jan 11, 2022 4:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere (Post 9499352)
most places in Toronto from my experience don't even give a quick select option of 15%, and always, always, always calculate including taxes.

I absolutely refuse to tip on takeout personally, and still tip 15% most times, though I admit it includes taxes. I'm also not afraid to leave no tip for bad service.

Agreed that tipping is getting out of hand, and is part of the reason I think people are avoiding restaurants more. Regarding wages, Ontario recently eliminated the lower minimum wage for servers so they really don't have an excuse any more. Even if they get $0 in tips all night long they are walking out with not that bad of a wage. On a typical night they can probably expect an excellent take-home pay.

contrary to popular belief I believe minimum wage is also near it's record highs even inflation adjusted. *especially* for servers as they don't have their own lower minimum now.

I've begun tipping on occasion for takeout as I know a lot of people in those sectors are hurting due to the pandemic shutdowns.

I never did before, though.

esquire Jan 11, 2022 4:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9499355)
I've begun tipping on occasion for takeout as I know a lot of people in those sectors are hurting due to the pandemic shutdowns.

I never did before, though.

Same here. At a lower amount than I would for dine-in, though.

urbandreamer Jan 11, 2022 5:07 PM

Speaking of waitresses and bartenders, I've been applying to various temp jobs in manufacturing and have noticed many applicants are people who recently worked in restaurants: they look like hipsters but now they're stooping down to reality: any pay cheque is better than nothing.:) (I've also noticed this trend in Amazon delivery drivers: young white men and women delivering!)

niwell Jan 11, 2022 5:12 PM

I generally tip at least 20% at bars/restaurants I go to and will often now tip (less) for takeout as well, just because I know how much some people are hurting right now. Now I probably wouldn't do so if I was going to chain restaurants rather than places I know the staff. Tips usually get distributed to the kitchen staff in these places as well.

I also don't really buy the argument that because service minimum wage has risen in Ontario then that's a fine wage. That's predicated on the idea that service jobs are inherently entry level and you can't make your career in the industry. I don't have a problem with the idea of a chef or bartender that's my age making a similar wage that I do - they certainly work a lot harder!

urbandreamer Jan 11, 2022 5:17 PM

^I used to live beside one of Toronto's star chefs and his bartender gf: really terrible experience as I had to wake at 6:30am for my job and they would come home 6 days a week at 3-4am and party until 7-8am, sometimes bringing their friends for coke fueled benders. Since then I've not been supportive of that industry. (It doesn't help that one of my former bosses worked in the industry and was also a massive asshole/alcoholic.) The rare times I've been to bars since: 10% tip. :)

VANRIDERFAN Jan 11, 2022 5:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9499308)
Do they still exist? I assumed a lot of the tiny self-serve rural border crossings have closed in the last 30 years making those places just over the border a lot less convenient than they once were.

Just went on this Wikipedia link. Most of the land access points are still operating and are open from 0800 - 2100 or 2200. Only 3 (Sprague, Emerson, and Boissivain) are open 24 hours. A lot of the American ones have brand new and modern facilities built. My niece works with CBSA infrastructure and the bureaucratic bullshit that is going on to get the Canadian sites upgraded is quite depressing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rder_crossings

le calmar Jan 11, 2022 5:32 PM

15% when I dine in (no way I am doing 18% or above), 7% for take-out to help businesses survive through the pandemic (might go back to no tip when things go back to normal), 18% for delivery drivers because I know Uber/Skip takes a huge cut.

MolsonExport Jan 11, 2022 5:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9499355)
I've begun tipping on occasion for takeout as I know a lot of people in those sectors are hurting due to the pandemic shutdowns.

I never did before, though.

Same here, but I hate how it has become the new normal. tipping for takeout used to be about sliding a twonie or fiver across the table, and now they want 18 fucking percent?

I am sympathetic to the plight of service workers, having been employed in several myself for many, many years (restaurants, bartending, retailing, and many other service-based jobs).

Although most retail jobs are also shitty, and the majority don't offer commission, let alone the ability to collect tips.

rofina Jan 11, 2022 6:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le calmar (Post 9499450)
15% when I dine in (no way I am doing 18% or above), 7% for take-out to help businesses survive through the pandemic (might go back to no tip when things go back to normal), 18% for delivery drivers because I know Uber/Skip takes a huge cut.

Uber Eats kills me.

Its like $60 per order no matter what I order, and its too damn easy to just want a food and have it in 30mins.

I dont budget down to the dime, but I would like to know what I spent through Uber in 2021 so I can cringe at the waste.

On the flip side - food has been one of the few joys left, so supporting restaurants that I don't much get to visit is worth something, I suppose.

esquire Jan 11, 2022 6:08 PM

Using Uber Eats/Skip the Dishes/DoorDash on a regular basis seems like a colossal waste of money relative to the effort of making something yourself or picking it up on the way home. It blows me away that some people use it to order trivial stuff like Slurpees and double-doubles.

WarrenC12 Jan 11, 2022 6:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niwell (Post 9499243)
Beyond consumption taxes alcohol is still subject to HST, but the LCBO (and beer store?) includes it in the sticker price. This doesn't apply if purchased through a restaurant license and they often add HST on top of what it will say in the menu.

BC took sales tax out of liquor store prices and it's on the bill now like everything else.

GST at 5% and PST at 10% (instead of the normal 7% here).

WarrenC12 Jan 11, 2022 6:19 PM

In BC you used to be able to pay alcohol servers a bit under minimum wage, but that was changed in the last few years. I don't know the stone age reasoning for it, but I tip according to service and work effort. Bringing me a new $9+15% tax beer isn't the same as making and serving my $10 burger.

If I'm there at happy hour downing $6 beers and eating $8 burgers you're probably getting the same $$ in tips.

Nashe Jan 11, 2022 6:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rofina (Post 9499497)
I dont budget down to the dime, but I would like to know what I spent through Uber in 2021 so I can cringe at the waste.

I track to the penny, so you got me thinking, so I went and checked:

2019 +21%
2020 -22%
2021 -2%

I would have expected it to go up, considering we "skip" once or twice a week. Interesting. I assume that's because less travel means less eating out on the road.

Actually... overall entertainment/cash/restaurants/misc are down quite a bit (this was more expected)

2019 +4%
2020 -20%
2021 -22%

This might be more of a COVID-19 post, I guess. Some of those drops are surprising.

ssiguy Jan 11, 2022 7:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarrenC12 (Post 9499527)
In BC you used to be able to pay alcohol servers a bit under minimum wage, but that was changed in the last few years. I don't know the stone age reasoning for it, but I tip according to service and work effort. Bringing me a new $9+15% tax beer isn't the same as making and serving my $10 burger.

If I'm there at happy hour downing $6 beers and eating $8 burgers you're probably getting the same $$ in tips.

Getting rid of the "server wage discount" has now also happened in Ontario.

I understand the idea behind it, that all workers should enjoy the same minimum standard of income but the reality is that most servers make most of their money thru tips. Getting rid of the minimum wage differential has also hurt restaurants in terms of finding kitchen staff.

Kitchen staff usually work much harder than servers and, especially in better restaurants, are far higher skilled but make less than the servers who basically have no training at all. Why work for $18-$20/hr at the back of the house when you can make $40+ at the front?

This is why nearly every single restaurant has a tip-sharing system where servers must put aside a certain amount of their tips for kitchen staff who get paid in envelopes so they pay no taxes. The rate of this "cash out" has soared in recent years as places are finding it increasingly difficult to find kitchen staff while there is never any shortage of servers because it's easy money. I have heard of many restaurants now having their cash-out rates of up to 25% which was lunacy even 5 years ago.

acottawa Jan 11, 2022 7:18 PM

Unpopular opinion: I think tipping should be illegal. The cost of labour should be incorporated in the price like it is in every other business. Tipping forces servers to engage in all sorts of humiliating behaviour like flirting with creepy old men or creepy old Karens and encourages customers to act in a disrespectful way.

Innsertnamehere Jan 11, 2022 7:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niwell (Post 9499419)
I generally tip at least 20% at bars/restaurants I go to and will often now tip (less) for takeout as well, just because I know how much some people are hurting right now. Now I probably wouldn't do so if I was going to chain restaurants rather than places I know the staff. Tips usually get distributed to the kitchen staff in these places as well.

I also don't really buy the argument that because service minimum wage has risen in Ontario then that's a fine wage. That's predicated on the idea that service jobs are inherently entry level and you can't make your career in the industry. I don't have a problem with the idea of a chef or bartender that's my age making a similar wage that I do - they certainly work a lot harder!

I'm not trying to say servers deserve minimum wage, as they will almost never actually have just their wage as a take-home, but tipping culture is odd in general and doesn't make any sense to me so..

For some reason we are expected that servers, which is not a particularly skilled profession (though certainly not no-skill) should be clearing $30+/hr for bringing me my food, while the poor chefs in the back, the guy delivering my package, the guy selling me my clothes, the guy doing just about one of a million other things has to work without tips and just rely on the pay his employer gives him.

if it were up to me tipping being mandatory would be made illegal and I would force employers to just pay their staff...

My point as well is the escalation of tipping culture in recent years, which flys in the face of all trends regarding server compensation from significantly increasing base wages, significantly increasing restaurant pricing leading to larger totals on the same % tip, the inclusion of tax in the calculation, and of course the rapid inflation of the % itself.. What used to be a 15% tip on a $35 meal and drinks for two, resulting in a tip of $6 atop an hourly wage of $7/hr in 2005 (adjusted for inflation is an $8 tip on a $9/hr base wage) is now a $60 meal, with an 18% tip on $67.80 (after tax), resulting in a tip of $12.20 on top of a minimum wage of $15.

If a server in 2005 cleared 3 tables an hour with that example's average bill, they could expect to earn ~$33/hr inflation adjusted.. now that's $51 for the same example..

I admit I'm not aware of what servers typically actually clear in tips and that it varies wildly by night and restaurant.. but I just don't see how that huge of a tip is needed for that level of skill. I'm paying $12 for someone to spend about 10 minutes of time actually focusing on serving me over a meal.. often It's just very expensive and the way social shame is used to try to enforce it is silly. Price the cost of paying staff a living wage into the good like literally every other industry and get out of here with guilt trips and dirty looks for perceived and wildly varying standards of what is "a fair tip".

ssiguy Jan 11, 2022 7:25 PM

^^^ Don't complain if your service level declines notably. Also how could you make tipping illegal when it's not a legal requirement to begin with? Even in countries like Australia where there is no tipping culture, it's not illegal to tip it's just not the social norm to do so just as we don't tip store clerks.

As for not tipping on take-out, personally I do because in many restaurants any tip goes directly to the back of the house and not to the servers as there was no service provided.

le calmar Jan 11, 2022 7:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rofina (Post 9499497)
Uber Eats kills me.

Its like $60 per order no matter what I order, and its too damn easy to just want a food and have it in 30mins.

I dont budget down to the dime, but I would like to know what I spent through Uber in 2021 so I can cringe at the waste.

On the flip side - food has been one of the few joys left, so supporting restaurants that I don't much get to visit is worth something, I suppose.

Yeah it’s crazy expensive. I only use it when they have a special offer (75% discount on the meal, etc.), which they happen to have fairly often.


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