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-   -   CHICAGO | Post Office Redevelopment (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192697)

nomarandlee May 24, 2022 2:13 AM

A stoopy question perhaps.....The roof isn't public access, is it?

pip May 24, 2022 2:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomarandlee (Post 9632088)
A stoopy question perhaps.....The roof isn't public access, is it?

I'm not sure if it will be but for now it isn't.

ardecila May 25, 2022 3:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrinChi (Post 9630973)
Sorry, I agree it's a huge improvement just to have the OPO saved, but I am just tired of developers presenting these grand plans like the riverwalk rendering from the Curbed article. If they want to keep their options open to build additional office space, that's fine, just be transparent about it. Don't present these slick renderings about this great new public space you're not really going to build. Maybe they didn't present it that way, that's why I'm asking about what changed since they released the grandiose riverwalk renderings?

Not sure. Maybe 601W had modest expectations for the historic renovation, but after the massive success of that building, maybe they decided to keep their options open for other buildings.

Or maybe once they dove into the project and started talking to all the stakeholders (Amtrak, Metra, CDOT, IDOT, etc) they realized the original plaza plan wasn't gonna work. This is a unique project and 601W doesn't have the ability to just build whatever they want.

I think specifically Amtrak needs that ramp from Van Buren to remain in place until they can get funding for the big Union Station renovation. Presumably the Union Station project would include a driveway access somewhere else.

twister244 Jul 8, 2022 6:50 PM

I took a stroll over to the Post Office for lunch at the new food hall today.... and WOW. What an amazingly beautiful space. I will try to post photos later, but it was truly a gem that I wasn't expecting. The atrium in the middle looks chique, the food selection was small, but good. There was an outdoor space with cool little hammocks along the river with amazing views of Sears/311. Definitely worth a stroll over if you are nearby.

rgarri4 Feb 16, 2023 3:33 PM

A look at what was proposed in 2011

Video Link

Tom In Chicago Feb 16, 2023 4:23 PM

The most exciting part of this "proposal" was the introduction of 'speed ramps' for automobile access. . .

. . .

Toasty Joe Feb 16, 2023 4:44 PM

was that the last time a building was proposed that would be the city's new tallest?

r18tdi Feb 16, 2023 5:42 PM

Is that hyper-dense zoning for the surrounding parcels still intact or did it sunset?

ardecila Feb 17, 2023 4:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r18tdi (Post 9868026)
Is that hyper-dense zoning for the surrounding parcels still intact or did it sunset?

It's still in place, but that was Davies' vision, not 601W. I very much doubt they're gonna build a three-lobed mini Burj Khalifah and shopping mall on the riverfront Sugar House parcel.

My prediction is that Amtrak eventually gets funding to move some trains to the old mail platforms under OPO, and they tear down the Sugar House for a new modern stationhouse and plaza/dropoff zone like a hybrid of Moynihan in NYC and the Baltimore Penn Station plan. Currently the mail platforms are only linked to the rest of Union Station by a dank sub-basement corridor that probably doesn't meet fire codes, and would somehow be a *worse* gateway to the city than the current setup. There's probably room for a midrise here too, it's a big parcel.

https://www.hsrail.org/wp-content/up...-platforms.jpg
High Speed Rail Alliance

Helmut Jahn even had a similar idea before he died.

https://i.ibb.co/WWVt696/Screenshot-...-17-105345.png

HomrQT Feb 18, 2023 3:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toasty Joe (Post 9867951)
was that the last time a building was proposed that would be the city's new tallest?

I thought the Gateway Tower proposal came after that.

https://external-content.duckduckgo....ac7&ipo=images

HomrQT Feb 18, 2023 3:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgarri4 (Post 9867807)
A look at what was proposed in 2011

Video Link

Great video as usual from you. I liked this for the sheer size and scale of the buildings. If they would have varied the color of the glass between buildings I think it would have been one outstanding proposal.

Briguy Feb 19, 2023 1:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomrQT (Post 9869792)
I thought the Gateway Tower proposal came after that.

[IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo....=https%3A%2F%n .mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.87HK3RNfwbU9T_FLvM7ruQHaFl%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=c3b5f7530f6057e5879a1aa3ffed853372b45ea60843ec0bfe7827a858da5ac7&ipo=images[/IMG]

Neither the opo or gateway towers were ever more than concepts, like the present day tribune addition.

Until Chicago can get $2,000/sq ft on new condo construction it doesn’t really make sense to build that tall. And Chicago can barely sell condos at all.

Already no office is built that tall outside of Manhattan, period. And even then it’s typically single tenant vanity driven.

Bombardier Feb 19, 2023 3:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuliusDoaner (Post 9870297)
Why cant chicago sell condos?

The value of Chicago condos has not seen the appreciation of property values like New York, Miami, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. My opinion is that Chicago is not as much an international destination so is not drawing as much interest from the international community to help drive sales and property values. Plus taxes and HOA’s are typically high relative to home values.

Briguy Feb 19, 2023 4:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bombardier (Post 9870305)
The value of Chicago condos has not seen the appreciation of property values like New York, Miami, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. My opinion is that Chicago is not as much an international destination so is not drawing as much interest from the international community to help drive sales and property values. Plus taxes and HOA’s are typically high relative to home values.

Precisely. It’s all foreign buyers of these trophy buildings. Miami gets a lot of influx from Latin America, plus its status as a destination as a vacation spot. Los Angeles is a playground for the rich and sees a lot of Asian and ME money. If you’re a billionaire you own property in New York - it’s the capital of the world! If you’re a Russian billionaire that Nyc condo is essentially your foreign bank account.

Unfortunately while Chicago is fantastic, a world class dining scene is not enough to attract buyers from abroad when they have similarly good options in la Nyc and Miami. If someday Chicago does start to become an international destination the upper end of the condo market could easily explode - New York is probably about 5x more expensive at least.

The other factor is, unfortunately, if you’re at the top of your field and earning $$$ you end up moving to the coasts, it’s just the way it is in the us. While vibrant, Chicago doesn’t have any major primary industries like finance media or tech to keep people here. The closest we have is trading, but even that industry is slowly being absorbed by nyc despite the exchanges all located here. Ken griffin and citadel is a perfect example of this. That man somehow owns half the condos over $15mil in chicago, but is on his way out. His listing of his Chicago condos is single handedly destroying the high end Chicago condo market - there are just not many people who are willing to spend $10mil on a condo in Chicago.

Nyc has 100+ ken griffins. If Chicago had even 20 people of that wealth we’d see a lot more fancy super talls.

marothisu Feb 19, 2023 5:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briguy (Post 9870279)
Neither the opo or gateway towers were ever more than concepts, like the present day tribune addition.

Until Chicago can get $2,000/sq ft on new condo construction it doesn’t really make sense to build that tall. And Chicago can barely sell condos at all.

Already no office is built that tall outside of Manhattan, period. And even then it’s typically single tenant vanity driven.

I assume you are talking about high rises in the downtown area. Otherwise this is such a blanket statement - Chicago doesn't have a problem selling condos of all kinds especially outside of downtown. Luxury, expensive ones downtown are hit and miss. Some sell better than others. There are many other wealthy buyers recently who skip downtown anyway. For example, there is the CEO of a semi well known capital firm (whose chairman is a billionaire - not among the biggest but still tens of billions in AUM. More than Citadel) in NYC who moved from Manhattan to Chicago and bought a mansion in Lincoln Park recently. Skipped downtown all together. Lived in a high rise in Manhattan.

west-town-brad Feb 19, 2023 7:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bombardier (Post 9870305)
The value of Chicago condos has not seen the appreciation of property values like New York, Miami, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. My opinion is that Chicago is not as much an international destination so is not drawing as much interest from the international community to help drive sales and property values. Plus taxes and HOA’s are typically high relative to home values.

No, Chicago is not an typical international destination for residential real estate purchases. The data is clear on that.

Taxes are high on property in IL but not higher than NY, FL, or CA. That’s a hilarious statement. Only CA can claim any kind of low tax status due to their Prop 13. Insurance in FL is ridiculous if you can even get it on your real estate so that wipes out any financial benefits comparing state to state.

HOA fees are building specific and I have seen very high and very low in all geos. The billionaire row building in NYC with private resident only restaurants… pretty confident that’s going to be a high HOA fee.

Bombardier Feb 19, 2023 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by west-town-brad (Post 9870423)
Taxes are high on property in IL but not higher than NY, FL, or CA. That’s a hilarious statement. Only CA can claim any kind of low tax status due to their Prop 13. Insurance in FL is ridiculous if you can even get it on your real estate so that wipes out any financial benefits comparing state to state.

I didn't say they were higher than the other states, I said they were high relative to home values.

r18tdi Feb 20, 2023 3:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomrQT (Post 9869792)
I thought the Gateway Tower proposal came after that.

Gateway was never a "proposal" -- it never wen through the zoning/entitlement process -- it was little more than an internal design exercise that was made public as a media/marketing exercise.

ardecila Feb 20, 2023 5:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marothisu (Post 9870368)
I assume you are talking about high rises in the downtown area. Otherwise this is such a blanket statement - Chicago doesn't have a problem selling condos of all kinds especially outside of downtown. Luxury, expensive ones downtown are hit and miss. Some sell better than others. There are many other wealthy buyers recently who skip downtown anyway. For example, there is the CEO of a semi well known capital firm (whose chairman is a billionaire - not among the biggest but still tens of billions in AUM. More than Citadel) in NYC who moved from Manhattan to Chicago and bought a mansion in Lincoln Park recently. Skipped downtown all together. Lived in a high rise in Manhattan.

Yeah, there is certainly a market for condos in Chicago, but it's heavily middle-class and driven by people looking for an actual place to live. A Chicago condo is not a great investment compared to an SFH in Chicago or a condo in a coastal city - not much appreciation. It's just a way for middle-class people to get some stability while remaining in the city.

Note that the West Coast also doesn't have much condo development, due to builder liability laws. Developers just aren't interested in that kind of headache.

marothisu Feb 20, 2023 7:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 9870727)
Yeah, there is certainly a market for condos in Chicago, but it's heavily middle-class and driven by people looking for an actual place to live. A Chicago condo is not a great investment compared to an SFH in Chicago or a condo in a coastal city - not much appreciation. It's just a way for middle-class people to get some stability while remaining in the city.

Note that the West Coast also doesn't have much condo development, due to builder liability laws. Developers just aren't interested in that kind of headache.

Quite a number of more recently built $1M+ condos in Chicago in 2-4 story buildings, so I'm not sure I quite agree with that sentiment currently for outside of downtown (as someone who bought in that range and toured many of these before buying). I believe they're more popular now due to the fact that they actually do appreciate in value and sell easier a lot more than the ones in larger buildings. Also the HOAs are smaller meaning that once you pay off your mortgage (if you have one), the amount of money per month you pay is much less than in a high rise. It's literally the reason we switched from planning to buy in a high rise downtown to a neighborhood, in a low rise.

Something like this is a prime example of upper end condos just built in the last year and selling fine:
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/15...home/179432690
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/18...home/182991105
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/26...home/180525412
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/17...home/182101739
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/13...home/180004038
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/15...home/145284720


But I do think that Chicago is more like LA in terms of the upper market in that a lot of people just go for SFH instead. I think that in Manhattan itself, you'd see a lot more of this if it existed but the number of townhomes for sale is ultimately pretty small and many go to a high rise. Some definitely want a high rise more than a townhome, but you'd be surprised at the number of people who would take a 3 or 4 story townhome over a high rise there if they could there. In Chicago though, there's an increasing number of low rise condos that are $1.5M+ that are selling without an issue. I think that will increase too.


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