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emathias Jun 15, 2016 7:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by orulz (Post 7474257)
Are fantasy maps allowed on this forum? Because I just made one.
...
The general concept is a reconfiguration and expansion of the existing L system into 5
metro-style "L" lines, and a rework of the Metra network into 4 RER-style Regional "R".
...
I like that. Expensive, but good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orulz (Post 7474257)
-The Metra Electric South Chicago branch is taken over by a southward extension of the Green Line. This would probably require rolling stock with dual current collection by both 3rd rail and pantograph, similar to the former configuration of the Skokie Swift.
Car sizes are very different, I don't think you could ever inter-operate them with different trainsets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orulz (Post 7474257)
-I was not really sure what to do with the Forest Park branch (current Pink Line). I just kept it as a branch of the Green Line.
Current Pink Line is the Douglas Park branch. Forest Park is the current Blue Line terminus.

orulz Jun 16, 2016 1:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by emathias (Post 7475379)
I like that. Expensive, but good.
Mostly using existing infrastructure is key. A few connectors have to be built. Some of them are big multi-billion dollar projects (the connections north from Millennium Station, the big new Brown Line subway, the WLTC for HSR and Intercity), some are medium (Connection from Rock Island lines to Union Station, realigning State Street subway to connect directly to the Midway line), and some are small (UP-NW connection to Union Station, Connection from the Wells street leg of the Loop to the Rock Island lines)

Quote:
Originally Posted by emathias (Post 7475379)
Car sizes are very different, I don't think you could ever inter-operate them with different trainsets.
I mean to turn the South Chicago branch over completely to the green line and rebuild all the stations to CTA spec. Keep it at-grade though, to save money, since there are other places at the end of branches where CTA runs with grade crossings. Using catenary is not necessary, and on second thought maybe it should get converted to Third Rail.The benefits and drawbacks of replacing it with third rail do need to be considered, though.
Benefit: No need for unusual (probably expensive) rolling stock
Benefit: Visual improvement by removing catenary.
Drawback: Costs more to install 3rd rail when Catenary already exists and probably could be kept and reused
Drawback: Safety risk of third rail requires fencing the tracks
Drawback: Fencing has visual impacts have to build fencing around the tracks. Could be mitigated somewhat by using attractive fencing (rod iron?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by emathias (Post 7475379)
Current Pink Line is the Douglas Park branch. Forest Park is the current Blue Line terminus.
Oops, you got me. They're both Parks and they both used to be branches of the Blue Line :)

Mr Downtown Jun 16, 2016 4:08 PM
I think a much better way to use the South Chicago Branch tracks would be with light rail. It would be an easy escalator transfer at 63rd & Cottage Grove, use the IC tracks in 71st and into South Chicago, then a new extension would loop through Lakeside. Those parts of the city are unlikely ever to need the capacity of Metra trains, nor even of CTA trains.

http://i.imgur.com/lMiZNvU.jpg

orulz Jun 16, 2016 5:03 PM
I see your point, a one seat ride is desirable though not regardless of cost. However, I note that the capacity and size difference between CTA trains and light rail vehicles is actually pretty negligible. A six car CTA train is exactly the same length as a three car Siemens S70 in MU mode, the kind they run in places like Minneapolis and Charlotte. The S70 is 8'7" wide while CTA equipment is 9'4" but they are the same height, nearly the same weight, and the minimum curve radius they can negotiate is also comparable at about 85'. Really the CTA blurs the line between light and heavy rail in other ways too, not the least of which are the grade crossings at the ends of the yellow, pink, and Brown lines. Putting CTA equipment in the median of 71st street would blur the line even further but it's just a small incremental step, and besides, CTA trains would certainly be a better fit there than Metra's massive Highliners. Plus it would avoid introducing another type of rolling stock, where consolidation of orders and maintenance facilities is clearly desirable from the standpoint of scale.

Also, how high are CTA platforms- is it 45 inches? I have a suspicion it is close enough to Metra's that just adjusting the tracks and ballast, without actually rebuilding the platforms, would be enough.

Besides, I wanted to preserve the 63rd Street elevated lines for the southern leg of the massive but probably impractical Brown Line Loop. :) Really, 79th would be better given the density and existing bus ridership, but cost and pre existing infrastructure won the day in my fantasy map.


But if the powers that be wouldn't allow third rail on 71st street, I certainly would agree that rather than custom CTA style equipment with pantographs, off-the-shelf LRVs are the better route.

Mr Downtown Jun 16, 2016 7:50 PM
It's pretty hard to imagine any agency deciding, in this day and age, to install exposed third rail.

I'm not usually a fan of light rail, which often seems to combine the worst features of buses with the expense of a metro. But the flexibility and capacity seem like the right technology for linking the modest densities expected at Lakeside with the Green Line using the median ROW on 71st and Stony Island.

CTA Gray Line Jun 17, 2016 5:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by orulz (Post 7476433)
I see your point, a one seat ride is desirable though not regardless of cost. However, I note that the capacity and size difference between CTA trains and light rail vehicles is actually pretty negligible. A six car CTA train is exactly the same length as a three car Siemens S70 in MU mode, the kind they run in places like Minneapolis and Charlotte. The S70 is 8'7" wide while CTA equipment is 9'4" but they are the same height, nearly the same weight, and the minimum curve radius they can negotiate is also comparable at about 85'. Really the CTA blurs the line between light and heavy rail in other ways too, not the least of which are the grade crossings at the ends of the yellow, pink, and Brown lines. Putting CTA equipment in the median of 71st street would blur the line even further but it's just a small incremental step, and besides, CTA trains would certainly be a better fit there than Metra's massive Highliners. Plus it would avoid introducing another type of rolling stock, where consolidation of orders and maintenance facilities is clearly desirable from the standpoint of scale.

Also, how high are CTA platforms- is it 45 inches? I have a suspicion it is close enough to Metra's that just adjusting the tracks and ballast, without actually rebuilding the platforms, would be enough.

Besides, I wanted to preserve the 63rd Street elevated lines for the southern leg of the massive but probably impractical Brown Line Loop. :) Really, 79th would be better given the density and existing bus ridership, but cost and pre existing infrastructure won the day in my fantasy map.


But if the powers that be wouldn't allow third rail on 71st street, I certainly would agree that rather than custom CTA style equipment with pantographs, off-the-shelf LRVs are the better route.
How much do you estimate all of this would cost? Versus the $500M Total Capital Cost of upgrading and utilizing the existing MED trains and physical plant: http://bit.ly/GrayLineInfo www.modernmetraelectric.org

orulz Jun 17, 2016 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTA Gray Line (Post 7477354)
How much do you estimate all of this would cost? Versus the $500M Total Capital Cost of upgrading and utilizing the existing MED trains and physical plant: http://bit.ly/GrayLineInfo www.modernmetraelectric.org
Obviously, a lot more. That is why it is a fantasy map, not a real plan.

Mr Downtown Jun 17, 2016 4:02 PM
^The "$500M Total Capital Cost" for the Gray Line is also just a fantasy.

ardecila Jun 17, 2016 6:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown (Post 7476713)
It's pretty hard to imagine any agency deciding, in this day and age, to install exposed third rail.

I'm not usually a fan of light rail, which often seems to combine the worst features of buses with the expense of a metro. But the flexibility and capacity seem like the right technology for linking the modest densities expected at Lakeside with the Green Line using the median ROW on 71st and Stony Island.
Yeah, I'm unclear on exactly what you mean by light rail. Many light rail systems have characteristics very similar to CTA L lines. Seems like "light rail" vs. L is a distinction without much difference.

If there is an issue with third rail, perhaps CTA could bring back the old Yellow Line trains with pantographs for overhead wire, and some extra modifications for street running. Then you just run four-car Green Line trains with pantograph on the Jackson Park (now Lakeside) branch and six-car trains to Englewood.

The best of both worlds - you get one-seat L service to Jackson Park similar to what used to exist, but without the overhead viaduct that neighborhood leaders seem to hate.

Mr Downtown Jun 18, 2016 4:42 AM
It's not the weight, car dimensions, or overhead current collection. It's the braking distance and the capacity. It makes no sense to have four- or six-car Green Line trains trundling around through The Bush and out at Lakeside, running up car miles with only one or two people inside each car. South Chicago light rail would act as a feeder line to the line-haul Green Line. It could be BRT, of course, but we've already got the tracks and the overhead. In the future, a second branch could use the median of Stony Island all the way south to 95th.

CTA Gray Line Jun 18, 2016 5:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown (Post 7477687)
^The "$500M Total Capital Cost" for the Gray Line is also just a fantasy.
The trains are running every day, no major construction like the Red Line Extension.; I actually don't think it would even cost that much..

The problem is that no Connected Construction Company Campaign Contributors get to make 2 or 3 Billion Dollars off of it -- this is after all the "Honest Administration" that hired the wonderful Ms. Barbara Byrd-Bennett (a true Model Administrator).

NOT Skimming Billions of Dollars is NOT the "Chicago Way" .....

CTA Gray Line Jun 18, 2016 5:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown (Post 7478525)
It's not the weight, car dimensions, or overhead current collection. It's the braking distance and the capacity. It makes no sense to have four- or six-car Green Line trains trundling around through The Bush and out at Lakeside, running up car miles with only one or two people inside each car. South Chicago light rail would act as a feeder line to the line-haul Green Line. It could be BRT, of course, but we've already got the tracks and the overhead. In the future, a second branch could use the median of Stony Island all the way south to 95th.
WHY would anyone want to ride a feeder Line from Lakeside (for example) to 63rd St., to transfer to a Green Line train to make a whole bunch of stops to Downtown, when the MED goes directly Downtown with far less stops. That also leaves UoC, Hyde Park, Kenwood-Oakland, and Bronzeville still without Lakeside CTA service -- is that OK?

You also make the statement "one or two people in each car"; and that is exactly the situation that would be created.

The MED exists as an UNDERUTILIZED Class I Rapid-Transit Line with a much higher hourly capacity than the little toy 'L', why screw it up?

btw: What do you think of these peoples ideas, since mine are just sooooo bad?: www.modernmetraelectric.org

Mr Downtown Jun 18, 2016 2:41 PM
Because you're not going to have Bi-Levels or L trains making their way through the streets of Lakeside or The Bush every 10 minutes. Lakeside residents are not going to walk all the way over to 87th & Baltimore just so their ride to the Loop can be 8 minutes faster.

The lower-capacity/lower-cost feeder line is one of the most basic concepts in transit planning. It allows patrons to be getting somewhere instead of standing around waiting until there are enough people to justify a high-capacity mode.

LouisVanDerWright Jun 18, 2016 7:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTA Gray Line (Post 7478546)

NOT Skimming Billions of Dollars is NOT the "Chicago Way" .....
Lol, Chicago is wildly corrupt, but I can guarantee you that no one has ever made anywhere near a billion dollars off of it. In fact saying people are "skimming" a billion dollars suggests you have absolutely no concept of the scale you are talking about. Most Chicago corruption is actually very small in scale, but large in breadth. Example being patronage where you have thousands of small favors being repaid with thousamds of other small favors like employment or contracts, etc none of which net anyone huge sums of money on their face, but in sum they add up to a lot.

ardecila Jun 18, 2016 8:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by denizen467 (Post 7474676)
Interesting you mention viaducts down to Webster -- I daresay if anywhere it's Ashland (next to Cortland) that really is decrepit and poses an issue to road safety, but I suppose that won't be addressed until Phase MMXXXV.
Yeah, the Clybourn station and associated viaducts are an entirely separate project. Really needs a total overhaul and redesign, ideally with a stationhouse and concessions, and a track-level trail connection to the 606. The one must-have is longer platforms so that all Metra trains can easily discharge passengers... right now certain cars on certain trains do not open their doors.

The Kennedy puts sort of a crimp on things to the west, but it should have better pedestrian links to Bucktown - a wide pedestrian tunnel under the Kennedy and rail tracks, tying into a TOD on the Howard Orloff dealership site. The impending death of the North Branch PMD bodes well for mixed-use development to the east, and a planned new river bridge at Armitage should alleviate some of the horrible congestion here.

Maybe one day it can resemble this station in Paris...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/92...770096!5m1!1e2

denizen467 Jun 18, 2016 10:28 PM
^ I look forward to a future holistic redevelopment of that complicated intersection, but what is this Armitage bridge of which you speak? Is this a wish list item or are the current projects at Finkl (IIRC, Sterling Bay et al) already taking it into consideration in their street grid planning? How far east would the roadway extend? Does the Cortland bridge get deprecated to cyclist use? Would twinned one-way bridges make sense?

An Armitage extension would lead its Ashland/Elston intersection into becoming another D/E/F mess. Adopting the Damen/Elston/Fullerton solution would require loads of land acquisition, so the intersection may be doomed to become a six-way. Unless the abovereferenced holistic redevelopment really coordinates something wide-ranging from the station to the river.

CTA Gray Line Jun 19, 2016 5:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown (Post 7478674)
Because you're not going to have Bi-Levels or L trains making their way through the streets of Lakeside or The Bush every 10 minutes. Lakeside residents are not going to walk all the way over to 87th & Baltimore just so their ride to the Loop can be 8 minutes faster.

The lower-capacity/lower-cost feeder line is one of the most basic concepts in transit planning. It allows patrons to be getting somewhere instead of standing around waiting until there are enough people to justify a high-capacity mode.
And how much do you estimate this will cost (including purchase of a new light-rail fleet - incompatible with any other Chicago rail system, and isolated to that one route); vs using a system already in daily operation (and bought and paid for) that provides a One Seat ride to Downtown with no transfer required.

You also didn't answer the question about CMME's goals: www.modernmetraelectric.org I wonder what they would think about your idea about pulling up the existing system; and you seem to ignore Lakefront Communities like Hyde Park, and Kenwood-Oakland North of 63rd St., what about them?

CTA Gray Line Jun 19, 2016 5:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright (Post 7478842)
Lol, Chicago is wildly corrupt, but I can guarantee you that no one has ever made anywhere near a billion dollars off of it. In fact saying people are "skimming" a billion dollars suggests you have absolutely no concept of the scale you are talking about. Most Chicago corruption is actually very small in scale, but large in breadth. Example being patronage where you have thousands of small favors being repaid with thousamds of other small favors like employment or contracts, etc none of which net anyone huge sums of money on their face, but in sum they add up to a lot.
I have complete and total understanding; somebody got $3B for that hole at Block 37 didn't they? (That could have been spent someplace else that needed if more)

THAT $2.5B+ RPM Project replacing much of the NSM could be done far, far cheaper -- but why when you have basically unlimited funds you can skim?

CTA Gray Line Jun 19, 2016 6:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTA Gray Line (Post 7479145)
THAT $2.5B+ RPM Project replacing much of the NSM could be done far, far cheaper -- but why when you have basically unlimited funds you can skim?
That "Red Line Extension" was going to be a Super Skim, but Thank God it priced itself right out of feasibility.

And notice how they were so worried about "Improving service to the Far South Side"; but since they can't get their gold-plated toilet seat -- it is just TOO BAD for the Far South Side, as they WON'T (or don't want to) consider any other alternatives, now do they?

Kngkyle Jun 19, 2016 6:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTA Gray Line (Post 7479145)
I have complete and total understanding; somebody got $3B for that hole at Block 37 didn't they? (That could have been spent someplace else that needed if more)
$3 billion? Huh? The figure I saw recently-ish was $400 million wasted. Not a small sum, but hardly $3 billion. And hopefully some day it can be used for something.

aaron38 Jun 19, 2016 2:05 PM
Ugh, I'm assuming it was planned and not an accident as there were numerous signs up, but I-290 was completely closed last night at 1am as we were coming home from the North Ave drive-in. Would have been nice to put the signs further back so that we could have exited before we were stuck for half an hour.

orulz Jun 19, 2016 9:58 PM
I find it interesting that the Green Line extension to South Chicago got the most commentary out of anything in this. I thought the Metra->RER conversion was the most interesting.

The general concept was simplifying George Ellsworth Hooker's plan for through routes into something more achievable by reducing the trunk routes from three to two, and making it more useful for present-day Chicago by bringing regional rail further into Streeterville than was proposed back then.

All of this would hinge on a regional fare structure, of course, and completely busting the CTA/Metra silos. Perhaps something zone-based or even distance-based?

Quote:
Originally Posted by orulz (Post 7474257)
Are fantasy maps allowed on this forum? Because I just made one.
See it here.

The general concept is a reconfiguration and expansion of the existing L system into 5
metro-style "L" lines, and a rework of the Metra network into 4 RER-style Regional "R". All lines run through the CBD. There are no frequency-limiting reverse branch bottlenecks - every line gets a two-track route through the core, but there is some proper branching at the outer ends of some of the lines. To the greatest degree possible, things are laid out to enable a two-seat ride from anywhere to almost anywhere.

There is no rhyme or reason to where I stopped drawing the commuter lines. I basically stopped when I felt I had drawn far enough to show my point.

Some parts are pretty foamy. Others are big but would probably be worth the investment. I tried to rely on existing infrastructure and rights-of-way, and base it on plans that actually exist in the real world, as much as possible.

Probably the two biggest items are:
1. Two new regional rail tunnels heading north from Millennium Station. One connects to the MD-N and NCS via Carroll Street, and the other connects to the UP-N via Streeterville and Chicago Ave. The UP-N, MD-N, and NCS would all be electrified at 1500VDC so they can use the tunnels and for compatibility.
2. The Brown Line wound up turning into a 40 mile "super loop" (Yikes, foam alert.) The only part of the brown line that is recognizable is the part where it already has its own route starting at Roscoe/Sheffield. Yeah, I know, it's a bit out of control. Its route, heading east from Roscoe/Sheffield, is:
(1) A new Lincoln Park Subway. East on Roscoe, South on Broadway and then Larrabee
(2) Clinton/Larrabee Subway under the North Branch
(3) West Loop Transportation Center
(4) St Charles Air Line through the South Loop
(5) IC Freight tracks through McCormick Place and Hyde Park, to 63rd
(6) West along the Green Line branches along 63rd, extended to Midway
(7) North up the Mid-City Transitway to Montrose
(8) East in a subway under Lawrence to the existing terminus.

Other things of note:
-The loop is de-looped by mothballing and/or removing the southern (Van Buren) segment.
-Tower 18 is reduced to a diamond where the Pink and Green lines cross each other, with no switching operations, and could (possibly?) be grade-separated.
-The Pink Line (formerly known as Purple) becomes a through route by taking over the Rock Island right-of-way from Lasalle to 18th, where it enters the Dan Ryan line
-Ogilvie and LaSalle stations cease to exist and their train sheds are made available for redevelopment.
-Rock Island trains are diverted to Union Station and run through to the MD-W and UP-W lines via Union Station run-through tracks.
-The BNSF is connected to UP-NW via Union Station.
-Intercity trains use the WLTC concept, with new through tracks under Clinton or Canal.
-The current yellow line is operated as an extension of the Red Line (basically, this frees up its color to be used on a Regional line.)
-The Metra Electric South Chicago branch is taken over by a southward extension of the Green Line. This would probably require rolling stock with dual current collection by both 3rd rail and pantograph, similar to the former configuration of the Skokie Swift.
-I was not really sure what to do with the Forest Park branch (current Pink Line). I just kept it as a branch of the Green Line.

ardecila Jun 19, 2016 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by denizen467 (Post 7478944)
^ I look forward to a future holistic redevelopment of that complicated intersection, but what is this Armitage bridge of which you speak? Is this a wish list item or are the current projects at Finkl (IIRC, Sterling Bay et al) already taking it into consideration in their street grid planning? How far east would the roadway extend? Does the Cortland bridge get deprecated to cyclist use? Would twinned one-way bridges make sense?

An Armitage extension would lead its Ashland/Elston intersection into becoming another D/E/F mess. Adopting the Damen/Elston/Fullerton solution would require loads of land acquisition, so the intersection may be doomed to become a six-way. Unless the abovereferenced holistic redevelopment really coordinates something wide-ranging from the station to the river.
Yes, the Armitage bridge has been included in most of the planning efforts for Finkl redevelopment. The Sterling Bay folks are generally on board with the idea, but it requires Ozinga Concrete to move on the west bank.

I imagine that the new street would extend east to the intersection of McLean/Southport. Most of the traffic today on the Cortland bridge is coming from the Clybourn Corridor, not necessarily heading further east on Armitage (Armitage east of Racine is a relatively quiet street). I don't think planners will seek to eliminate the dogleg at Racine.

I'm not sure what happens to the old Cortland bridge; it's a City Landmark so it can't go anywhere, but it might get repurposed as a trail crossing for the 606, or just preserved as additional capacity over the river. It's not well suited for an arterial road, with low clearances and all those steel girders above the roadway deck, so I doubt CDOT would want it to be used in a one-way couplet.

The crazy intersection at Elston/Ashland is problematic no matter what happens with the bridge, but adding the bridge reduces the through-traffic on Elston considerably. In an ideal world Elston would be closed off at the intersection a la Lincoln Square, with bike lanes continuing through.

nergie Jun 20, 2016 1:46 AM
Interesting Article on TTC and CTA
 
http://http://www.chicagotribune.com...19-column.html

Not trying to start city vs city, but a piece on TTC on CTA.

CTA Gray Line Jun 20, 2016 6:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kngkyle (Post 7479154)
$3 billion? Huh? The figure I saw recently-ish was $400 million wasted. Not a small sum, but hardly $3 billion. And hopefully some day it can be used for something.
I apologize, I was typing fast and didn't spell-check; you are correct $300M+, not B! Thanks for the correction.

Kngkyle Jun 21, 2016 2:54 AM
Surprised these haven't been posted here yet. Final renderings for the new 95th street station, from curbed:

http://chicago.curbed.com/2016/6/17/...street-station

https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/CrT...al_20Day.0.jpg

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/2cW...l%20(dash).jpg

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/aI0...%20(drone).jpg

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/jqr...h)%20Night.jpg

CTA Gray Line Jun 21, 2016 12:08 PM
Revamped Metra Electric could put South Side on the fast track
 
http://chicagoreporter.com/revamped-...he-fast-track/

By La Risa Lynch

"A newly formed Coalition wants the Metra Electric rail line to be reinvented to better serve the low-income
communities it runs through, connecting riders to jobs and spurring economic development....."

chicagopcclcar1 Jun 21, 2016 7:29 PM
No need to say anything….just quote the article.

“Metra covered an operating deficit of $64 million in 2015, when the line generate $46 million in revenue but cost $110 million to operate.

“When there is an area of high unemployment, that’s an area that needs more transit, not less,” Johnson said. “The problem with Metra is that it is priced out of the market.”

“State Rep. Al Riley (38), who was a member of the now-defunct House mass transit committee, says the idea has merit, along with many others aimed at sparking more economic development in disadvantaged communities. Many south suburban towns in Riley’s district are served by the ME.

“There is not a problem that we can’t solve,” he said. “The problem is making it politically feasible and that’s where we run into problems all the time. “

Did we mention the state of Illinois has no budget!!!

I vote getting a big truck and run over three big people in Springfield….won’t mention any names.

DH

CTA Gray Line Jun 21, 2016 8:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagopcclcar1 (Post 7481459)
No need to say anything….just quote the article.

“Metra covered an operating deficit of $64 million in 2015, when the line generate $46 million in revenue but cost $110 million to operate.

“When there is an area of high unemployment, that’s an area that needs more transit, not less,” Johnson said. “The problem with Metra is that it is priced out of the market.”

“State Rep. Al Riley (38), who was a member of the now-defunct House mass transit committee, says the idea has merit, along with many others aimed at sparking more economic development in disadvantaged communities. Many south suburban towns in Riley’s district are served by the ME.

“There is not a problem that we can’t solve,” he said. “The problem is making it politically feasible and that’s where we run into problems all the time. “

Did we mention the state of Illinois has no budget!!!

I vote getting a big truck and run over three big people in Springfield….won’t mention any names.

DH
I definitely agree with you on that big truck part David -- however I prefer the French Revolution's way of handling these types of ridiculous infantile situations!

chicagopcclcar1 Jun 21, 2016 8:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTA Gray Line (Post 7481527)
I definitely agree with you on that big truck part David -- however I prefer the French Revolution's way of handling these types of ridiculous infantile situations!
A big "10-4." CTA language!

DH

ChickeNES Jun 23, 2016 10:33 PM
Quote:
Idea to convert Metra Electric to rapid-transit line draws mayor's interest
Mary Wisniewski - Chicago Tribune - 6/23/16
A proposal to convert the Metra Electric District Line into a rapid-transit line with more frequent stops to serve the South Side and suburbs has drawn the interest of Mayor Rahm Emanuel, who has asked the head of the Regional Transportation Authority to facilitate discussion on the issue, RTA officials said.

During the transit agency's monthly board meeting Thursday, Chairman Kirk Dillard told a representative of a coalition of South Side and south suburban groups that Emanuel had reached out to him about the rapid-transit idea last month, and that talks had begun.

Dillard said he spoke with Metra Chairman Martin Oberman about the proposal Wednesday.

"The RTA is working with the CTA and Metra," Dillard said after the meeting. "We need to get a handle obviously on the finances, as well as ridership numbers historically in that area. We're in the preliminary fact-finding stages."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...623-story.html

ardecila Jun 23, 2016 11:46 PM
^ Uh... is this real life?

Could the political stars be aligned for this finally?

I mean, there's no money right now... But Emanuel wants to rebuild his cred among blacks, and the Metra Electric line overwhelmingly serves black communities (plus McCormick Place, South Loop and Hyde Park as a bonus). Even better, there's a Lincoln Park resident and Emanuel ally heading up Metra, not a suburbanite. The only risk is timing. Even assuming this project gets the mayor's full support, it will take years to get funding. Either the city and Metra can go through the multi-year process for Federal funding, or try to dig up change in the couch cushions of state and local government.

The article compared it to Toronto's effort, but Metra Electric has a leg up over GO Train in that it already has electrification and high platforms, and doesn't have to share with freight. (It also has full grade separation, but it seems like Toronto is pretty much there as well.)

orulz Jun 24, 2016 1:27 AM
Even better than the Gray line plan to operate ME as a CTA line with existing equipment would be to revise regional fare structures so in-city Metra rides on ALL lines are the same or nearly the same fare as CTA rides, and to eliminate or nearly eliminate the inter-agency transfer penalty. That would be the first step towards turning all of Metra into a regional rail service.

cyked3 Jun 24, 2016 3:39 AM
Here's my dream. Combine:

(1) A new underground O'Hare station large enough to accommodate Metra Electric airport express service AND Amtrak. Funding source - airport fees.

(2) Direct, unobstructed, double track connection from O'Hare to Union Station. Could do it through UP-N or NCS right of way. I like UP-N approach better because it won't require any cooperation by any suburbs. How to get from O'Hare to UP-N? Expand the Kennedy, add tolling (either across the whole freeway or in an express lane), and add tracks parallel to the Blue Line when expanding the Kennedy. Funding source - toll revenues and City of Chicago and general Metra bonds.

(3) Expanded Union Station, using through tracks with platforms located at the existing unused mail platforms south of Union Station. Also, build a good quality connection to the Blue Line Clinton station. Funding source - Union Station master plan revenues and TIF revenues (recall that the state gave special TIF rights to pay for improvements at Union Station).

(4) Expanded Metra Electric, with regular intervals, and using the 16th street link between the Metra Electric line and Union Station approach tracks. Funding source - City of Chicago and general Metra bonds.

This is basically CrossRail, except juiced up a bit by accommodating Amtrak at O'Hare and linking Union Station to the Blue Line. I particularly love the idea of an Amtrak station at O'Hare. That would really motivate surrounding states to improve rail links to Chicago, I think.

CTA Gray Line Jun 24, 2016 1:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 7484265)
^ Uh... is this real life?

Could the political stars be aligned for this finally?

I mean, there's no money right now... But Emanuel wants to rebuild his cred among blacks, and the Metra Electric line overwhelmingly serves black communities (plus McCormick Place, South Loop and Hyde Park as a bonus). Even better, there's a Lincoln Park resident and Emanuel ally heading up Metra, not a suburbanite. The only risk is timing. Even assuming this project gets the mayor's full support, it will take years to get funding. Either the city and Metra can go through the multi-year process for Federal funding, or try to dig up change in the couch cushions of state and local government.

The article compared it to Toronto's effort, but Metra Electric has a leg up over GO Train in that it already has electrification and high platforms, and doesn't have to share with freight. (It also has full grade separation, but it seems like Toronto is pretty much there as well.)
Utilizing the MED as a CTA 'L' service is already included as a Major Capital Project in our MPO's RTP, and since the communities that would be served are mostly black as you pointed out -- maybe Rahm could seek help from the POTUS, and Sec. Foxx (both also black).

$500 to $600 Million for a new 25 mile Lakefront rapid-transit line with 35 to 40 stations, at a fraction of the $2.3 Billion cost sought for the 6 mile 4 station Red Line Extension; and leaving lots of Transit Funding for use here, and/or elsewhere in the U.S.

brian_b Jun 24, 2016 2:13 PM
The MED as a rapid transit line is great, but it would never reach full potential without connections to other lines, most likely via the 16th street ROW.

That ROW has room for 4 tracks but currently only 2 exist. They could potentially add service without impacting existing usage. And, as part of the Wells/Wentworth connector, they could build out a MED/Red Line/Rock Island Metra station, which would be huge for the planned development over there.

Mr Downtown Jun 24, 2016 4:41 PM
But how would all this new service on the SCAL cross the Rock Island? The current diamonds are potentially a pretty big problem for both lines, and grade separation would be a huge expensive project.

ardecila Jun 24, 2016 6:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown (Post 7485025)
But how would all this new service on the SCAL cross the Rock Island? The current diamonds are potentially a pretty big problem for both lines, and grade separation would be a huge expensive project.
L trains cross each other at Lake/Wells all the time, with high frequency service. The key there is that high acceleration rates enable the junction to work somewhat smoothly.

At 16th Street, at least the service on SCAL would be electrified, so presumably it would have high performance acceleration (despite the Highliners' elephantine weight).

the urban politician Jun 24, 2016 8:33 PM
Wow, great to hear somebody is paying attention to this.

CTA Gray Line Jun 25, 2016 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 7485147)
L trains cross each other at Lake/Wells all the time, with high frequency service. The key there is that high acceleration rates enable the junction to work somewhat smoothly.

At 16th Street, at least the service on SCAL would be electrified, so presumably it would have high performance acceleration (despite the Highliners' elephantine weight).
They may be Elephants, but they are very fast AC Powered lumbering Elephants (with comparable acceleration to CTA 'L' equipment): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pjH2AO6DCQ (Thanks to metraRI for Video)

ardecila Jun 25, 2016 2:58 PM
^ yeah, I don't see any reason a four-car Highliner train couldn't clear the 16th St junction from a full stop any slower than an 6-car Green Line train, which encounters not one but four flat junctions on its route and still maintains reasonable frequency.

The bigger problem is trains on the Rock, which are extremely sluggish like the rest of Metra's fleet.

CTA Gray Line Jun 26, 2016 6:16 AM
You all know that this can't all be done as one big Project, but will probably have to be implemented in stages.

CTA Gray Line Jul 2, 2016 2:03 AM
Emanuel gets broad powers for transit TIF districts......
 
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...630-story.html

CTA Gray Line Jul 2, 2016 2:05 AM
State budget deal could help Purple Line
 
http://evanstonnow.com/story/governm...lp-purple-line

chicagopcclcar1 Jul 2, 2016 2:45 PM
SkyscraperPage Forum >CHICAGO: Transit developments is not the only place that discussion about Metra Electric occurs. Chicago Transit Forum has had a topic since 2005... https://chitransit.org/topic/66-circ...y-line/?page=1

A recent posting read as follows: 06/23/2016, Emanuel, searching for political support on the south side, suddenly is interested in the Gray Line (Tribune). Article has a better description of the infrastructure and costs issues. Apparently the ME is no BNSF.

06/23/2016, I can't believe that this idea won' t die. Where does this magic money come from? As I have noted before the current nonexistent ridership in the inner city justifies cutting, not expanding, ME service in the city. Added frequency doesn't improve ridership, otherwise the SSM would still be going to Howard.

The only way this thing could ever possibly come to be is if Metra cedes the entire ME to CTA. Then CTA has to work the NICTD into its operations. It's a mess not worth considering.

I asked the question a few weeks back.....Why would anyone expect the CTA to take over a failed transit service that results in a $64 million/year loss? "deficit of $64 million in 2015, when the line generate $46 million in revenue but cost $110 million to operate."

DH

ardecila Jul 2, 2016 5:53 PM
^ Virtually all rail services lose money. The Red Line probably loses far more than $49 million/year. It's a public service that increases the value of property, possibly by more than the amount of the operating loss.

chicagopcclcar1 Jul 2, 2016 8:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 7492299)
^ Virtually all rail services lose money. The Red Line probably loses far more than $49 million/year. It's a public service that increases the value of property, possibly by more than the amount of the operating loss.
Would you supply some specifics.....compare Metra Electric's deficit $64 million vs other Metra lines; or CTA Red line (or others), rather then just the statement "all rail services lose". Thanks, I'm a rail fan, not a bookkeeper, LOL.

DH

Ryanrule Jul 3, 2016 12:01 AM
Its about more than just property value. The general economic benefit is huge.

CTA Gray Line Jul 3, 2016 4:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagopcclcar1 (Post 7492409)
Would you supply some specifics.....compare Metra Electric's deficit $64 million vs other Metra lines; or CTA Red line (or others), rather then just the statement "all rail services lose". Thanks, I'm a rail fan, not a bookkeeper, LOL.

DH
She's not a bookkeeper either, where would she get "specifics"?

chicagopcclcar1 Jul 3, 2016 5:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTA Gray Line (Post 7492616)
She's not a bookkeeper either, where would she get "specifics"?
From the Tribune article quoted last week......"Metra spokesman Michael Gillis said .

"Metra has $11.7 billion in capital needs over the next 10 years. The Metra Electric line requires the largest operating subsidy of all Metra lines — it collects about $46 million from the Metra Electric line but it costs $110 million to operate, Gillis said."

So the information is out there somewhere, right.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...623-story.html

DH


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