what about subways? :shrug:

for one thing, phase II of the second avenue subway moved into the engineering phase this past january -- more:

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger...ubway-phase-2/

https://www.railwayage.com/wp-conten...2/01/Map-1.png



also, sen.schumer brokered a design build deal this past december to speed up construction of four new mnrr stations in the bronx.
they will act like local transit for bronxites and is supposeed to be completed in five years:

more:
https://www.bxtimes.com/supercharge/

https://www.bxtimes.com/wp-content/u...M-1536x870.png

There will also eventually be two west side Metro North Stations feeding in to Penn Station on the Hudson Line:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Access_Map.png

There's talk about connecting those four Bronx stations into the IBX line as well.

more on penn:


Hochul launches bidding for design of $7 billion Penn Station overhaul


By Kevin Duggan
Posted on June 9, 2022

Governor Kathy Hochul announced the state will start soliciting designs for her $7 billion plan to beautify Penn Station Thursday.

Architectural and engineering firms will have until July 28 to submit proposals to the Metropolitan Transportation Authority to give the notoriously-cramped station a facelift, the governor said at the Moynihan Train Hall on June 9.

“The glory days are coming back,” Hochul said during a press conference at the Midtown station.

“We are taking an enormous step toward righting one of the wrongs of the past 60 years,” she added. “This time we’re going to get it right.”

The MTA’s so-called request for proposals went live Thursday afternoon, and officials will choose a winning bid by late summer or early fall, Hochul said.


more:
https://www.amny.com/transit/hochul-...-penn-station/


The plan calls for more light inside the notoriously dark station.
Office of Governor Kathy Hochul
https://www.amny.com/wp-content/uplo...enn-inside.jpg

when yr mom sends you florida news :uhh::D


https://m.facebook.com/FOX13TampaBay...8020492374148/

^ I think that made the national news.

I know kids have been doing this kind of thing for decades and maybe because it's just now being captured by hi-res smartphones, but it does seem like it's getting more and more reckless and/or brazen. To me it seems like those kids have no natural self-preservation instincts if they think it's a "thrill" and not a potentially easy death sentence to be doing what they're doing. It's one thing to ride off the back car between a few stations or mess around in the yards around the third rails like back in the graffiti days but it seems like a whole other thing to be running on the roof of a moving train. I mean WTF? And I think it said they crossed the WB like that?? Goodlord...

Are there any plans to double track the Empire Connection south of 39th St?

There's some murkiness regarding whether its even possible. I think I've read something that suggests, especially at this point with the foundations of Hudson Yards towers above, that it would essentially be infeasible to construct a parallel tunnel box for a second track. I also think I read somewhere that maybe just maybe Amtrak engineered the Empire Connection tunnel to allow a second track in the future. Only a handful of people would definitively know the answer to this. When Amtrak constructed it in the 90's they weren't thinking that MTA would run M-N over any of the West Side Line (and a single tunnel track had plenty of capacity for their needs), and we know how great either of them are at envisioning and planning for the future, especially then.

Since ESA Phase 2 is clearly planning on and has publicly announced their intention on running some Hudson Line trains over the Empire Connection and into Penn, one would think planners at both agencies have come to the conclusion that a single track tunnel in and out of Penn is sufficient for capacity. I have my doubts about that but we'll see. If I was Amtrak and the MTA I'd be trying right now to get some of that Infra money, maybe even tack it onto the Gateway contribution and double track that tunnel NOW because in my humble opinion it's got the look of shooting yourself in the foot written all over it. This should be part of the planning around the tower at 418 11th Ave.

If you ever want to substantially increase the frequency of Ethan Allen, Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Lake Shore Limited, Berkshire Flyer and Empire Service trains AND do two new Metro North Stations on the corridor you would definitely have to at least double track the whole Empire Service tunnel.
https://i.imgur.com/21TaeHC.jpg

The other part of the system that would need double tracking would be the Spyuten-Duyvil bridge https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ridge_crop.jpg

That needs to be raised so it doesn't open anymore.

Actually it should just be a tunnel. The technology exists to easily make that a reality. Just bring the Norwegians over to build it.

I believe it has been budgeted for. Still seems like the whole bridge needs to be decommissioned and replaced with a modern tunnel though.

They've already replaced the swing part of the bridge ... in the interim while a tunnel is built the capacity increase should be allocated for by just double tracking the existing bridge (for which there is the space)
https://bridgehunter.com/photos/47/34/473490-L.jpg
https://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/TWC...trakbridge_jpg

the gateway tunnels:


https://www.amny.com/transit/report-...teway-tunnels/

What about the possible reopening of the Hilton corridor to link the Penn Station with the PATH?

I'm assuming you're talking about the Gimbels passageway? I've never heard it called the Hilton corridor. If so, and I have no evidence for this, but I suspect it's been left out of discussions because Vornado likely doesn't know what the future of the Gimbels Building (Manhattan Mall) is. I really want to see it fully restored with a new tower above. It's a beautiful building (plus the skybridge woyld be a tragedy to see destroyed) and would be a damn shame to lose it, both architecturally and historical significance. But even if it is, a new tower woyld likely effect the passageway and a ground up new building definitely would. Therefore I would imagine this lack of definitive plans for the site is what is preventing any announcement regarding the passageway.

You consider this adequate? The flagship city of the richest and most powerful nation on earth - along with most major US cities has transit subpar for what it needs.

Phase 2 of Second Avenue is nice but … frankly that line should be much further along. New York needs subway service to LaGuardia, Utica Avenue, at least 1 outter borough line (BXQ) and MANY MANY stations need major upgrades.

You have areas of the city that are putrid for rapid transit. Mill Basin Brooklyn and Little Neck Queens for instance are miles from the subway system.

Then there are other ideas that are considered pipedreams but in other nations aren’t and decades ago wouldn’t be here either…..

Example, in addition it would be nice if NYC more rapid service to New Jersey. The two PATH lines really aren’t enough. Plans for the 7 to Seacaucus were a great idea that never got off the ground.

Of course in “it will never happen category” you would connect SIR to the Subway but … yeah right.

New York could use a service that goes through the city and connects on outter area to the other (think CrossRail 1 & 2). A high speed service that say went from Long Island to New Jersey or Fairfield County to Staten Island or Fairfield county to Long Island.

I mean yeah, we know. There's not a lot we can do about it though. Due to ridiculous labor and land costs in NYC, frankly I'm surprised as much gets done as gets done.

Congratulations, you've entered the brain of many a NY armchair transit planner. ;)

Paris currently has 20 TBM's in the ground right this second building tunnels for the expanded Metro. TWENTY!

The MTA acts like a 1.5 mile single line extension is grasping at the impossible. It's not all about money, this is a cultural problem at the MTA that has developed over several generations of leadership. And it didn't actually start in the bad old days of the 70s. By post-WW2 the air had been let out of the entire spirit of urban NYC transit investment. Then the bankruptcy, the graffiti, the seemingly dismal outlook for long-term basic good maintenance, let alone expansion.

I think it will get better, but there needs to be a paradigm shift in how the region can meet current and future transit needs. I know it's likely next to impossible, and maybe even unconstitutional, but I would love to see an entire division of the federal government, including the USDOT, FTA and FRA dedicated to just a few of the nations economic and population power centers, with the greater NY region at the top, and singlehandedly focus on planning and funding massive transportation investments that will hasten huge returns. This era of low expectations has got to end. The MTA has got to get a federal partner to break out of this logjam of underfunded and dormant ambitions.

Feel like I’ve been there for a while. Don’t even get me started on my home base, Boston



The bipartisan infrastructure bill was a major missed opportunity. $1.2T and only $30B+ went to rail? Turn the $1.2B into $1.5 adding $250B would have been a truly transformative allotment. City after city would have been reimagined …sigh

If Amtrak had gotten that kind of money, they could rehabilitate the entire NEC, build an entire grade seperate high speed rail line that doesn't have other services on it, and still have like 100 billion left for cities around the country.

if wishes were fishes. :shrug:

There should be an "Airport Express" between LaGuardia - JFK and Newark with maybe one stop at the World Trade Center in between JFK and EWR.

actually it would be a heck of a lot easier to connect the existing jfk airtrain in jamaica with lga. i think cuomo was angling in that direction with his eastern angled lga airtrain plan, albeit leaving that last leg airtrain connection down the van wyck for the future. a jfk to lga airtrain ride could even have made for an easy, rather stealth, outer loop transit option. :shrug:

Agreed! For NYC not to have one? Beyond basic!

Conceptually sure you could turn AirTrain into legit mass transit instead of just an airport service but that would mean building intermediate stations and not charging $8 to use it, which I doubt the Port Authority has any interest in.

They can barely be bothered to consider fixing the absolute disaster that is the fare control at Jamaica so I think their ambitions in this department are pretty limited.

well, yes like anything you can shoot it down five ways until tuesday, but connecting the airtrain to lga and jamaica/jfk is a good idea in itself — and as for public transit options on it, by the time they would build it using mta would cost around that much anyway.


***


they want the deets on financing the penn upgrade improvements:

https://nypost.com/2022/06/15/ny-sen...-station-redo/

How should it be paid for?

Preferably with money.

Possible mix of revenue sources:

Combination of:

General fund taxes from New York and New Jersey
Federal infrastructure money
Airport parking fee increases
Extra charges for ride share and taxi trips to the airports after the Airport Express line is built to fund/subsidize its operations.
Slightly higher landing fee for airplanes during construction to go towards financing the line.
Slightly higher gate fees for airlines
The higher landing fees and gate fees for the airlines could be waived in exchange for the airlines actually directly financing the express subway line,
Surcharges on the "duty free" shops at the airports
Perhaps some limited tax free status for construction companies that get the contracts for construction.

The issue is that it would cost billions and billions........just look at the East Side Access, Gateway project, and 2nd Ave subway expansion.

speaking of billions and how should it be paid for — nys senate oversight committee on penn plans:


https://gothamist.com/news/state-sen...velopment-plan

The Economist noted this week that pre-pandemic ridership on the New York Subway was circa 60% (with violent crime and slow return to the office) being a drag on ridership recovery, but that won’t remain the case forever. Ridership levels will recover, and pressure will return on existing routes to increase capacity.

New rail lines to underserved areas will always draw a lot of support, and there is merit in the likes of the Interborough Express for a variety of reasons (orbital journeys, increased transit access, new journey options, etc…) especially utilised an existing rail corridor, although the price being floated around is rather crazy. Infill stations on the commuter lines would also help provide new transit access. Brand new alignments will be less likely due to New York’s otherworldly construction costs and less beneficial.

Automated signalling (aligned with rolling stock renewal) is one of the most cost effective upgrade projects to boost systemwide capacity on existing lines. The New York Subway has probably the most interlined network on the planet so automation goes beyond increasing the number of trains that can run on a single track each hour, fewer delays, faster speeds, with higher safety confidence and improved acceleration and deceleration. It takes time – London started work back in the early 2010’s and it won’t be complete until sometime in the 2030’s – but the uplift in capacity is equivalent to several new lines. Automation works on non-metro lines where there is heavy congestion/demand for high frequencies, so imagine the massive uplift in capacity into New York Penn.

25-year old woman falling off on subway tracks. She had a seizure. She had a head injury. She is expecting to be okay. She will be all right.

https://www.local10.com/news/local/2...rhr9Re7RMCkuy8

Yeah but what about the dude that got pulled under the train on the Brighton Line the other day?

i would say if it comes down to time and money then getting ibx up and running expediently is the prime concern. automation is a system wide issue. if they want to try it with ibx then fine, but i can’t imagine there is money or patience for that. maybe, we will see.

as far as expanding infill stations on commuter lines, there is very good news on that front as mta is definitely moving along with four new mnrr stations in the bronx. and perhaps even another new one in queens that would hopefully align with an ibx transfer:

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...oject/3054435/

nys lawmakers forging a reign on penn — w/gateway news:



State Lawmakers Seek Power to Derail Penn Station Megaproject
Echoing the Amazon HQ2 fight, state senators demand a say in Midtown Manhattan redevelopment and hunt for details on vague finances.

BY GABRIEL POBLETE JUN 27, 2022,


***

A separate project called Gateway, a $12 billion plan led by New York, New Jersey and Amtrak to create two one-track tunnels that would run under the Hudson River and connect Penn Station and New Jersey, is in early stages. Amtrak recently awarded a contract for the design of the station, the New York Times reported.


more:
https://www.thecity.nyc/manhattan/20...-amazon-hochul

more guns yay! :rolleyes:


MTA reviewing rules allowing licensed concealed carry in transit after Supreme Court ruling on guns

https://www.amny.com/transit/mta-gun...-court-ruling/

Can we talk about that zoom commentor at the MTA board meeting that accidently showed off his porn folder on his desktop screen....:haha::facepalm:

Tell me that's somebody here. (No it wasn't me...not a smellt it dealt it situation)

That's what you get when you get a supermajority of originalist loonies on the court. Practical consequences be damned right?

Infill stations on the commuter lines are certainly low hanging fruit, particularly on routes where there is line capacity, e.g. the Atlantic Branch where there are several closed stations. A big hurdle to reopening/new infill stations however will be the limited track capacity into Manhattan (12 regular service tracks, including ESA, compared to say 62 into Central London) because adding new stations could result in reduced line frequencies and impair journey times.

Implementing digital signalling on the core commuter lines into Manhattan would alleviate this issue and deliver a broad array of benefits across the wider region. One of the options being explored by Network Rail to enable more trains to run into London Waterloo is using European Train Control System to enable up to 44 trains per hour per track. Of course that would require far more efficient train turnaround, wider platforms and possibly through-running at Penn. Still thought it would be far cheaper than new lines.

and two more lines to come under the hudson via the gateway rebuild. that likely needs to happen before any serious thru running push.

other than ptc and ctc signaling upgrades i dk about commuter rail, nothing else i don't think, but at least cbtc automation is being overlayed on the traditional block system and is moving along in being implemented for the whole subway system. although found to be hard on the brakes, the canarsie L train and flushing 7 train pilots were otherwise successful and its been expanding. so not bad for by far the most complicated, interlined subway system.

also interesting that mta had been piloting subway automation off and on since the 1950s, although it seems they took a break from that from the mid-1960s until now. unions, ha.

and since you mention other cities, in the usa i think the path train has cbtc now too, and i know sf bart and at least one line in philly use automated signaling. probably others also do these days.


more:
https://new.mta.info/project/cbtc-signal-upgrades

I hope that the part of the Gateway Tunnel project that will refurbish the existing Hudson Tunnels will work on a way to allow the Empire Service Tunnel to be fully double tracked as well.

Would probably be better. Maybe some of these crazies on the subway will think twice if some law abiding citizens could carry.

Instead of infill stations, I think it would be better to just go ahead and integrate Subway, LIRR, and Metro North within city limits first under one payment system. Once that is done, you may want to do infill stations. As far as extensions, I think 2nd ave subway and IBX should get priority and focus from the MTA. Right now the ridership is still down, but that LEX line is going to be a disaster again soon.

Bernie Goetz is cheering from the grave...

For every instance some rando criminal might be persuaded to not do violent crime because of the risk of a packing citizen saving the day is likely 10 instances of relatively banal altercations escalating to deadly outcomes. Scale up to understand the national issue at hand.

that is on the table -- but in no way is payment a reason to slow down planning and providing more service developments.

mta ridership stats --


basically -- subways and busses are currently running at 60% pre-pandemic levels on the weekdays and around 70%ish on weekends.


more:
https://new.mta.info/coronavirus/ridership

a big move forward for gateway --


N.J., N.Y. sign funding agreement on Gateway rail tunnel, bridge.
Tunnel work could begin in 2023.

Updated: Jul. 05, 2022, 9:04 p.m. | Published: Jul. 05, 2022, 6:26 p.m.

By Larry Higgs | NJ Advance Media for NJ.com


Gov. Phil Murphy and New York Gov. Kathy Hochul signed a first agreement delineating how the two states will fund the local share Gateway project to build a rail tunnel under the Hudson River and a new bridge across the Hackensack River, a critical step on the road to obtaining federal funding.


more:
https://www.nj.com/news/2022/07/nj-n...n-in-2023.html