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nito Jun 29, 2022 6:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9657880)
i would say if it comes down to time and money then getting ibx up and running expediently is the prime concern. automation is a system wide issue. if they want to try it with ibx then fine, but i can’t imagine there is money or patience for that. maybe, we will see.

as far as expanding infill stations on commuter lines, there is very good news on that front as mta is definitely moving along with four new mnrr stations in the bronx. and perhaps even another new one in queens that would hopefully align with an ibx transfer:

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...oject/3054435/

Infill stations on the commuter lines are certainly low hanging fruit, particularly on routes where there is line capacity, e.g. the Atlantic Branch where there are several closed stations. A big hurdle to reopening/new infill stations however will be the limited track capacity into Manhattan (12 regular service tracks, including ESA, compared to say 62 into Central London) because adding new stations could result in reduced line frequencies and impair journey times.

Implementing digital signalling on the core commuter lines into Manhattan would alleviate this issue and deliver a broad array of benefits across the wider region. One of the options being explored by Network Rail to enable more trains to run into London Waterloo is using European Train Control System to enable up to 44 trains per hour per track. Of course that would require far more efficient train turnaround, wider platforms and possibly through-running at Penn. Still thought it would be far cheaper than new lines.

mrnyc Jun 30, 2022 4:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nito (Post 9663357)
Infill stations on the commuter lines are certainly low hanging fruit, particularly on routes where there is line capacity, e.g. the Atlantic Branch where there are several closed stations. A big hurdle to reopening/new infill stations however will be the limited track capacity into Manhattan (12 regular service tracks, including ESA, compared to say 62 into Central London) because adding new stations could result in reduced line frequencies and impair journey times.

Implementing digital signalling on the core commuter lines into Manhattan would alleviate this issue and deliver a broad array of benefits across the wider region. One of the options being explored by Network Rail to enable more trains to run into London Waterloo is using European Train Control System to enable up to 44 trains per hour per track. Of course that would require far more efficient train turnaround, wider platforms and possibly through-running at Penn. Still thought it would be far cheaper than new lines.


and two more lines to come under the hudson via the gateway rebuild. that likely needs to happen before any serious thru running push.

other than ptc and ctc signaling upgrades i dk about commuter rail, nothing else i don't think, but at least cbtc automation is being overlayed on the traditional block system and is moving along in being implemented for the whole subway system. although found to be hard on the brakes, the canarsie L train and flushing 7 train pilots were otherwise successful and its been expanding. so not bad for by far the most complicated, interlined subway system.

also interesting that mta had been piloting subway automation off and on since the 1950s, although it seems they took a break from that from the mid-1960s until now. unions, ha.

and since you mention other cities, in the usa i think the path train has cbtc now too, and i know sf bart and at least one line in philly use automated signaling. probably others also do these days.


more:
https://new.mta.info/project/cbtc-signal-upgrades

TowerDude Jul 1, 2022 2:04 AM

I hope that the part of the Gateway Tunnel project that will refurbish the existing Hudson Tunnels will work on a way to allow the Empire Service Tunnel to be fully double tracked as well.

Gantz Jul 1, 2022 5:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9662470)
more guns yay! :rolleyes:


MTA reviewing rules allowing licensed concealed carry in transit after Supreme Court ruling on guns

https://www.amny.com/transit/mta-gun...-court-ruling/

Would probably be better. Maybe some of these crazies on the subway will think twice if some law abiding citizens could carry.

Gantz Jul 1, 2022 5:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nito (Post 9655386)
The Economist noted this week that pre-pandemic ridership on the New York Subway was circa 60% (with violent crime and slow return to the office) being a drag on ridership recovery, but that won’t remain the case forever. Ridership levels will recover, and pressure will return on existing routes to increase capacity.

New rail lines to underserved areas will always draw a lot of support, and there is merit in the likes of the Interborough Express for a variety of reasons (orbital journeys, increased transit access, new journey options, etc…) especially utilised an existing rail corridor, although the price being floated around is rather crazy. Infill stations on the commuter lines would also help provide new transit access. Brand new alignments will be less likely due to New York’s otherworldly construction costs and less beneficial.

Automated signalling (aligned with rolling stock renewal) is one of the most cost effective upgrade projects to boost systemwide capacity on existing lines. The New York Subway has probably the most interlined network on the planet so automation goes beyond increasing the number of trains that can run on a single track each hour, fewer delays, faster speeds, with higher safety confidence and improved acceleration and deceleration. It takes time – London started work back in the early 2010’s and it won’t be complete until sometime in the 2030’s – but the uplift in capacity is equivalent to several new lines. Automation works on non-metro lines where there is heavy congestion/demand for high frequencies, so imagine the massive uplift in capacity into New York Penn.

Instead of infill stations, I think it would be better to just go ahead and integrate Subway, LIRR, and Metro North within city limits first under one payment system. Once that is done, you may want to do infill stations. As far as extensions, I think 2nd ave subway and IBX should get priority and focus from the MTA. Right now the ridership is still down, but that LEX line is going to be a disaster again soon.

ardecila Jul 1, 2022 6:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gantz (Post 9665331)
Would probably be better. Maybe some of these crazies on the subway will think twice if some law abiding citizens could carry.

Bernie Goetz is cheering from the grave...

Busy Bee Jul 1, 2022 7:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gantz (Post 9665331)
Would probably be better. Maybe some of these crazies on the subway will think twice if some law abiding citizens could carry.


For every instance some rando criminal might be persuaded to not do violent crime because of the risk of a packing citizen saving the day is likely 10 instances of relatively banal altercations escalating to deadly outcomes. Scale up to understand the national issue at hand.

mrnyc Jul 4, 2022 6:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gantz (Post 9665336)
Instead of infill stations, I think it would be better to just go ahead and integrate Subway, LIRR, and Metro North within city limits first under one payment system. Once that is done, you may want to do infill stations. As far as extensions, I think 2nd ave subway and IBX should get priority and focus from the MTA. Right now the ridership is still down, but that LEX line is going to be a disaster again soon.

that is on the table -- but in no way is payment a reason to slow down planning and providing more service developments.

mrnyc Jul 5, 2022 2:41 AM

mta ridership stats --


basically -- subways and busses are currently running at 60% pre-pandemic levels on the weekdays and around 70%ish on weekends.


more:
https://new.mta.info/coronavirus/ridership

mrnyc Jul 6, 2022 4:38 AM

a big move forward for gateway --


N.J., N.Y. sign funding agreement on Gateway rail tunnel, bridge.
Tunnel work could begin in 2023.

Updated: Jul. 05, 2022, 9:04 p.m. | Published: Jul. 05, 2022, 6:26 p.m.

By Larry Higgs | NJ Advance Media for NJ.com


Gov. Phil Murphy and New York Gov. Kathy Hochul signed a first agreement delineating how the two states will fund the local share Gateway project to build a rail tunnel under the Hudson River and a new bridge across the Hackensack River, a critical step on the road to obtaining federal funding.


more:
https://www.nj.com/news/2022/07/nj-n...n-in-2023.html

jmecklenborg Jul 6, 2022 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9668604)
a big move forward for gateway --


N.J., N.Y. sign funding agreement on Gateway rail tunnel, bridge.
Tunnel work could begin in 2023.


Are they going to re-use the work in New Jersey that Chris Christie cancelled mid-stride?

Would ARC have been up and running by now?

TowerDude Jul 6, 2022 1:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg (Post 9668691)
Are they going to re-use the work in New Jersey that Chris Christie cancelled mid-stride?

Would ARC have been up and running by now?

Gateway would have been almost finished by now had Trump not blocked federal funding for it.

mrnyc Jul 7, 2022 1:45 PM

idiocracy —


STAT OF THE DAY

{ 363 percent }

Reports of “subway surfing,” or riding on top of subway cars, have jumped by nearly 363 percent since 2020, according to MTA figures provided to THE CITY.

In the first five months of this year, there have been 449 reported incidents of people riding on top of or outside trains, MTA data shows — almost as many as the 461 in all of 2019.

Busy Bee Jul 7, 2022 2:04 PM

The video game probably doesn't help.

People, mostly young people, riding on the outside in between cars or even hanging on the back car has been around for ages, probably as long as when conductors could no longer keep an eye on longer trains, BUT the reckless and ostentatious displays of sitting or walking on the roof of moving trains does seem to have increased. You could have gone years without seeing something that bonkers and now it's like it's the exception if you haven't seen these crazy kids doing it.

Gantz Jul 7, 2022 8:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TowerDude (Post 9668724)
Gateway would have been almost finished by now had Trump not blocked federal funding for it.

Nah, in truth the environmental review for the tunnels was projected to finish only in 2018 at the earliest (in reality more like 2020), so even with all of the funding lined up it wouldn't have started until then from the most optimistic standpoint, assuming no delays. Remember, this project was in fits and starts even before Trump. And even with Trump, he didn't completely cancel the funds for it either. This thing will still take at least a decade, although a lot of work was already being done for years for this.

Busy Bee Jul 7, 2022 8:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gantz (Post 9670261)
Nah, in truth the environmental review for the tunnels was projected to finish only in 2018 at the earliest (in reality more like 2020), so even with all of the funding lined up it wouldn't have started until then from the most optimistic standpoint, assuming no delays. Remember, this project was in fits and starts even before Trump. And even with Trump, he didn't completely cancel the funds for it either. This thing will still take at least a decade, although a lot of work was already being done for years for this.

Was thinking the same but was waiting for someone else to say it first. I'd like to tear the man limb from limb but I have my doubts his actions had a huge impact on the timeline if I'm being honest. A multi-agency bi-state mega project like this is unfortunately going to move at a snails pace no matter who is sitting in the White House... 'cause 'Merica.

mrnyc Jul 8, 2022 1:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg (Post 9668691)
Are they going to re-use the work in New Jersey that Chris Christie cancelled mid-stride?

Would ARC have been up and running by now?

no, they can’t use the arc plan anymore in part because the 7 train extension is in the way. also, gateway is more than arc was to be and the work would have been needed regardless.

Busy Bee Jul 8, 2022 2:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9670512)
no, they can’t use the arc plan anymore in part because the 7 train extension is in the way.

That's innacurate. Those two things did not preclude nor have anything to do with one another.

TowerDude Jul 8, 2022 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gantz (Post 9670261)
Nah, in truth the environmental review for the tunnels was projected to finish only in 2018 at the earliest (in reality more like 2020), so even with all of the funding lined up it wouldn't have started until then from the most optimistic standpoint, assuming no delays. Remember, this project was in fits and starts even before Trump. And even with Trump, he didn't completely cancel the funds for it either. This thing will still take at least a decade, although a lot of work was already being done for years for this.

Obama had all the money lined up ... it was Trump that blocked it.

mrnyc Jul 14, 2022 1:02 AM

i'm shocked. shocked!

the penn revamp plan comes up $3B short -- in part due to tax breaks given:



Railway robbery? Hochul’s Penn Station project may provide $1.2B in tax breaks, but come up short on funds, report finds

By Kevin Duggan
Posted on July 13, 2022


Governor Kathy Hochul’s Penn Station renovation proposal could give developers up to $1.2 billion in tax breaks, but may rake in only half the funds needed to pay for the transit hub’s upgrades, according to an analysis.

The governor’s controversial scheme to collect future payments from developers of a new 10-tower predominantly office complex would still leave the state more than $3 billion short of funding the planned overhauls at Penn Station, a study released Wednesday by the good government group Reinvent Albany estimates.


more:
https://www.amny.com/transit/hochul-...ion-tax-break/


https://www.amny.com/wp-content/uplo...Penn-new-1.jpg
Renderings showing the redesigned Penn Station./Office of Governor Kathy Hochul


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