Irish Boston, Italian Philadelphia
Irish is the most common ancestry group in both, and Italian share of the population is similar, but Boston is more associated with Irish and Philadelphia in the popular imagination is more associated with Italians. Why is that?
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NYC, Boston, and Philly all have about the same percentage of Italian ancestry.
Boston is associated with Irish because that's by far the most predominant ethnic group. Italian is the second largest ethnic group, followed closely by French/French Canadian, and English... I think. Despite the Irish Catholic element, Boston's also pretty WASPy. It has large English and Scottish populations relative to the other big metros, and if people claiming "American" ancestry are of Yankee stock, then English is probably the second most common European ancestry. The three biggest actors associated with Boston (Mark Wahlberg, Matt Damon, Ben Affleck), based on quick Google and Wikipedia searches, don't have any Italian ancestry. They're all a mixture of British Isles, German, and Nordic descent. Philadelphia I have always associated with African Americans with its share of both German/English and "white ethnics," with no ancestry sticking out in particular. When I think of famous white Philadelphians, I think Joe Biden, Bradley Cooper, Bruce Willis, Tina Fey, Kevin Bacon, Chris Matthews, Pink, Carli Lloyd, Seth Green, Tommy Lasorda, Jake Tapper, Ryan Phillippe, among others. I always thought Sylvester Stallone was from NYC. He was born there and grew up mostly in DC before moving to Philadelphia at age 15; I wouldn't consider him to be a true Philadelphian. As you can see, not much Italian ancestry there. Cooper is half Italian, Lasorda was full Italian, and Lloyd looks like she could be Italian, but I can't find anything that indicates that she is. Sixth Sense, 12 Monkeys, Trading Places, Boy Meets World, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, etc. don't reference the Italian demographic. |
I'm pretty sure NY has a higher share of Italian ancestry than Philly or Boston.
I don't think Boston is WASPy, at all. It might have things associated with WASPs (Ivy League, prep schools, Eastern establishment) but the share of actual WASPs is probably tiny. Philly is probably more WASPy and less overtly ethnic, especially in the sprawl. The Main Line strikes me as more WASP than Wellesley or Weston. Boston's South and North Shore feel pretty overtly ethnic, kinda like Long Island. I don't think Philly has quite as much of that. Re. Philly Italian and Boston Irish, pop culture probably plays a role. Rocky for Philly, the countless Irish mob Boston movies. The Departed, The Town, Mystic River. Not sure these cities had such overt identifications prior to these films. |
Heck, even movies set in NYC do a better job of portraying Irish characters:
Home Alone 2: Mr. Duncan, the Central Park pigeon lady You've Got Mail: Meg Ryan's character "Kathleen Kelly" Fatal Attraction: Michael Douglas' character "Danny Gallagher" Cop Land: Harvey Keitel's character "Ray Donlan" As Good as It Gets: Helen Hunt's character "Carol Connelly" |
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NY definitely has more people of pure Italian ancestry, although size and generations of assimilation mean that you have lots of Italian mixed in with Jewish, Irish, Puerto Rican, etc. In LA, it's still more common for an Armenian to marry another Armenian than not. And Armenians have been in LA since the turn of the 19th century. |
Yeah, not sure Joe Biden would be considered Philly. Scranton is it's own thing, and NE PA is more tied to NYC. I guess he represented Metro Philly via Wilmington area, but that doesn't really scream Philly politician.
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5 largest ancestry groups and Jewish population via Brandeis.
Boston MSA Irish 950,095 19.4% English/American 654,421 13.4% Italian 554,022 11.3% French/French Canadian 316,563 6.5% *Jewish 284,000 5.8% German 270,065 5.5% Philadelphia MSA Irish 1,031,599 16.6% German 850,990 13.7% Italian 737,153 11.8% English/American 681,577 10.9% *Jewish 310,000 5% Polish 261,238 4.2% |
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Rocky cemented (South) Philly's reputation for being Italian.
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I don't think anyone who looks like this (Catherine O'Hara, not American and originally a redhead... red hair turns blond as you age) will have a hard time blending in with "generic" Americans. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...RINE_OHARA.jpg Wikipedia |
I'm guessing the only "white ethnic" groups that still "stick to their knitting" more than not are Portuguese Americans in New England and Jews (probably close to 50/50 though) in NYC.
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Apart from Italian not being the most common ancestry in Boston, I really think it's the predominance of British Isles and French/French Canadian ethnic groups as well as the "preppy" nature of New England culture (private boarding schools, elite universities, small liberal arts colleges, general emphasis on history/tradition/pedigree and modest display of wealth) that amounts to less association with the general conception of Italian-American culture and its connotations — already shaped by NY/NJ.
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Perhaps if Philadelphia had, say, 1.5 million Greek Americans then maybe there'd be more in the way of films and television shows featuring characters with names like "Adonis Papadakis" or "Eleni Mylonas." I can't think of another European ethnic group that could be exploited/caricatured without it coming across as too culturally insensitive. Certainly not Polish or any other Slavic or Latin group. |
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^Pols were definitely the lowest-ranking Catholic nationality, if you grew up in a German-dominated area. It was a carry-over from Europe, but upset a little by the Pope being Polish in the 1980s.
The hierarchy went like this: 1. German 2. French (elitist and annoying but not low class) 3. Italian 4. Polish ...with Spain/Latino as an asterisk, as there was typically no direct contact with these people if you lived in the Great Lakes region outside of Chicago. The environment has changed in much of the United States over the last 25 years, with a Spanish-language Mass appearing at many Catholic parishes, and even parishes where English masses have been replaced entirely by Spanish masses. Of course, if Vatican II hadn't happened, everyone would be at the same Latin Masses, which was the whole point of keeping everything in Latin for nearly 2,000 years. |
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Bradley Cooper - Abington Bruce Willis - Carneys Point Tina Fey - Upper Darby Kevin Bacon - Philadelphia (Society Hill ?) Chris Matthews - Philadelphia (Hunting Park ?) Pink - Doylestown Carli Lloyd - Delran, NJ Seth Green - Philadelphia (Overbrook Park) Tommy Lasorda - Norristown Jake Tapper - Philadelphia (Queen Village) Ryan Phillippe - New Castle, DE Sylvester Stallone - Philadelphia (Northeast) And my personal favorite... Joey Lawrence & the Lawrence Brothers - Abington |
wat about the current actual italians and irish, who were born there and moved here, and not some self-selected family ancestry?
it seems to me there are quite a few right off the boat irish in nyc and few new italian-americans. are there any fresh immigrant numbers? |
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