SkyscraperPage Forum

SkyscraperPage Forum (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php)
-   City Discussions (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=24)
-   -   How Is Covid-19 Impacting Life in Your City? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242036)

craigs Apr 4, 2021 1:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9237699)
^ THIS ISN’T A FUCKING WAR.

It's a war, and you're aiding and abetting the enemy like a fucking traitor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9237732)
We should be talking about obesity not Covid.

C'mon, you guys, stop talking about COVID in the COVID thread!

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9237739)
my business has been badly affected.

Oh noes. That's just terrible news.

someone123 Apr 4, 2021 1:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9237694)
Sitting on the beach, swimming, beach volleyball, relaxed fun in the sun and even outdoor drinking with a few friends isn't enough--they have to pack as many people into small spaces, unmasked, as they can and get rowdy. That should be shamed IMHO.

What is the point of the shaming?

This reminds me of HIV and harm reduction versus a shaming and abstinence model. Trying to honestly communicate risks to people and offer mitigation strategies instead of persecuting them for being gay or having sex.

In much the same way that there was often a failure to acknowledge sex as a basic human activity and requirement in the 80's and 90's (perhaps the key component of what living creatures who sexually reproduce evolve to do), there's often a failure to acknowledge any interaction as being necessary today.

I think it goes deeper here because shame is often a redirection strategy when official government initiatives aren't going well. We could have had faster vaccine approval and rollout and better testing. I hear almost nothing about testing these days.

Quote:

I look at what past generations endured--war, depression and so on--and I just can't get too worked up about the "suffering" of today's 18-39 year olds. Just do what you should do and not what you want to do for once.
You are saying you have no sympathy for person A because person B in history suffered more? Couldn't you have said the same of the Greatest Generation because they weren't mowed down by Genghis Khan or something?

I am relatively comfortable and don't consider myself a victim, but I have a lot of sympathy for people who have paid costs during the past year. Not just health costs from covid itself but costs imposed by the restrictions too. I'm not sure which costs are higher. Nobody knows what the long-term impact will be on younger people, such as a cohort of infants who are deprived of much of their human contact at key ages.

I think that if governments had performed better, many countries could have done better on both ends. The "many people get covid" vs. "indefinite lockdown" trade-off is what you get when your country has failed in a number of other areas.

JManc Apr 4, 2021 2:52 AM

I see 10023's point. Don't necessarily agree with everything he says but those under 50 are statistically less vulnerable than the older crowd (and have largely been sequestered from them) but have had their lives curtailed just the same. People in their 40's, 50's and 60's bitching about Spring Breakers had their era of fun and are tone deaf as to why a 22 year-old who's been cooped up for over a year would want to let loose in South Beach. Don't think it's a good idea but I get it.

Pedestrian Apr 4, 2021 2:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 9237803)
What is the point of the shaming?

I'm something of a libertarian as much as I can be. I think shaming is a better way to control a lot of public behavior than laws. In Europe they make laws against hate speech. I'd rather just humiliate the people who use it for example. In this case, the point is to inhibit the behavior but I realize it's not going to be very effective against people who have no shame.

Quote:

This reminds me of HIV and harm reduction versus a shaming and abstinence model. Trying to honestly communicate risks to people and offer mitigation strategies instead of persecuting them for being gay or having sex.
What's the "harm reduction" for COVID other than doing the things we are asking of these people (Masks, distancing)? "Harm reduction" used to be my business by the way--took a gig as doctor in a methadone clinic when I was partially retired.

Quote:

In much the same way that there was often a failure to acknowledge sex as a basic human activity and requirement in the 80's and 90's (perhaps the key component of what living creatures who sexually reproduce evolve to do), there's often a failure to acknowledge any interaction as being necessary today.
I think that's the wrong way to look at it. I think a willingness to (1) wear a mask in public indoor places, (2) maintain some distance (feet, not miles) from people you don't live with, (3) get vaccinated when possible are the things that make reasonable kinds of interaction possible and still safe. If people will just do those 3 things, nearly everything else is now reasonably OK.

Quote:

I think it goes deeper here because shame is often a redirection strategy when official government initiatives aren't going well. We could have had faster vaccine approval and rollout and better testing. I hear almost nothing about testing these days.
Testing is declining rapidly and that's both reasonable and a shame. Once we we suppress the virus as much as we can with vaccination, we will need to have readily available testing to find the sporadic cases that will allow it to keep smoldering. But for now the focus is on vaccination and I think that's as it should be. Vaccination will stop the pandemic. Testing in places like the US and Canada where it has been out of control can only limit it. But hopefully we will pass through that phase in 4 or 5 months.

Quote:

You are saying you have no sympathy for person A because person B in history suffered more? Couldn't you have said the same of the Greatest Generation because they weren't mowed down by Genghis Khan or something?
My lack of sympathy is not for their lack of suffering. It's for their complaining so much about suffering that is minimal and their refusal to do what society asks of them. Imagine if they were sent to war to die.

Quote:

I am relatively comfortable and don't consider myself a victim, but I have a lot of sympathy for people who have paid costs during the past year. Not just health costs from covid itself but costs imposed by the restrictions too. I'm not sure which costs are higher. Nobody knows what the long-term impact will be on younger people, such as a cohort of infants who are deprived of much of their human contact at key ages.

I think that if governments had performed better, many countries could have done better on both ends. The "many people get covid" vs. "indefinite lockdown" trade-off is what you get when your country has failed in a number of other areas.
There are important costs due to restrictions and minimally important ones. The biggest complainers here usually don't mention what may be the most important cost due to restrictions: We don't really know how this is going to affect a generation of children who had a year out from proper education, almost any socialization and who were subjected to fear they may not understand. I don't hear the 20-somethings even talk about that. The 30-somethings more so because they may have kids. But this is likely to be a serious problem and I acknowledge so also is the hiatus from higher education for the 20-somethings. Will they know the things upon graduation they would have known and may need to know?

I also worry a lot about the arts: Haute culture (opera, symphony, ballet, live theater and so on) may be getting killed off in the US where government subsidization is less than in Europe (some of the now multiple federal relief acts have some money for the arts).

But the inability to go bar hopping or work out in an indoor gym just doesn't register on the scale of serious restrictions IMHO nor would a year without "Spring Break" at the beach (some people use the break to go build houses for Habitat For Humanity or other useful purposes and I imagine that's still OK--it should be; it's mostly outdoors).

As to the performance of government. I think you are Canadian. I am surprised, frankly, at the Canadian government's failure given their comfort level with what, for lack of a better term I'll call "socialism" (no insult intended).

But in the US, things went pretty much like every war we've ever fought (which is another way this really is like war). We pretty much screwed up the first 6 to 9 months of the fight, just like we did in WW II (it took until 1943 to get war production really going and of course the early battles--Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea, Philippines and so on were disasters): Test kits from CDC that didn't work, porous travel bans, an utter failure of contact tracing. But as with Midway onward, I think now we are rolling: All but Pfizer developed and geared up production of vaccines with generous dollops of government money, there has been, a steady increase in the speed of vaccinations from the end of December (there has been no discernible discontinuity between US administrations--when Trump left office we were giving 1.3 million shots per day about a month after vaccine approval and we've ratcheted that up to 3 million in 2 additional months). Meanwhile, more government money and rapid FDA approval has now gone into at least 3 treatment modalities (2 monoclonal antibody cocktails--there were 3 but one has been more or less abandoned--and one anti-viral. That's pretty good considering that antivirals as a class don't exist at all for many viral diseases that have been around longer than COVID.

Pedestrian Apr 4, 2021 3:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9237847)
I see 10023's point. Don't necessarily agree with everything he says but those under 50 are statistically less vulnerable than the older crowd (and have largely been sequestered from them) but have had their lives curtailed just the same. People in their 40's, 50's and 60's bitching about Spring Breakers had their era of fun and are tone deaf as to why a 22 year-old who's been cooped up for over a year would want to let loose in South Beach. Don't think it's a good idea but I get it.

When I graduated from college, half my class was shipped to Vietnam and quite a few died there. Yes, until then we had "Spring Break". But you haven't been "cooped up" until you've been to boot camp.

Let's recall the younger folks were lightly restricted (there were no real "lockdowns" in the US--people could go out, get together with others to the degree they felt safe, picnic in the park, go on "road trips" in camper vans which had a renaissance; but no one was enforcing any of it and the major effect has been the closure of certain businesses though I have for months at a time with most shopping at Walmart and they didn't close).

Rather than crowding into beachfront bars in Miami, all sorts of experiences in the outdoors were never curtailed.

But all of what was done was to suppress viral reproduction and transmission which occurs in all ages even though the young don't get as sick while it's happening to them. And the virus that reproduces in them would not stay confined to the young. Short of doing what 10023 has always advocated--locking grandma and grandpa up at home and feeding them through a slot in the door like a zoo animal--the young and old are not isolated from one another in western democracies. Old people have to shop for food and many aren't as lucky as I am and able to afford the 50% or so more it costs to have things delivered. Things break at home and a repairman has to come in and fix them. Dental visits and routine medical care with younger dental assistance and medical staff have to occur.

JManc Apr 4, 2021 3:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9237854)
When I graduated from college, half my class was shipped to Vietnam and quite a few died there. Yes, until then we had "Spring Break". But you haven't been "cooped up" until you've been to boot camp.

Let's recall the younger folks were lightly restricted (there were no real "lockdowns" in the US--people could go out, get together with others to the degree they felt safe, picnic in the park, go on "road trips" in camper vans which had a renaissance; but no one was enforcing any of it and the major effect has been the closure of certain businesses though I have for months at a time with most shopping at Walmart and they didn't close).

Rather than crowding into beachfront bars in Miami, all sorts of experiences in the outdoors were never curtailed.

But all of what was done was to suppress viral reproduction and transmission which occurs in all ages even though the young don't get as sick while it's happening to them. And the virus that reproduces in them would not stay confined to the young. Short of doing what 10023 has always advocated--locking grandma and grandpa up at home and feeding them through a slot in the door like a zoo animal--the young and old are not isolated from one another in western democracies. Old people have to shop for food and many aren't as lucky as I am and able to afford the 50% or so more it costs to have things delivered. Things break at home and a repairman has to come in and fix them. Dental visits and routine medical care with younger dental assistance and medical staff have to occur.

Throwing out Vietnam to lessen contemporary grievances doesn't jive. Yes, shipping kids off to fight (and die) in a war they really didn't want to be in was an in my opinion, inexcusable. The US wised up in 1973 by ending the draft. My stepfather never mentally recovered from the shit he experienced over there but we're not fighting a war now and the distress the pandemic is causing is no less sincere. I'm not talking about 10023 not being able to ski but it's taken a toll on mental health. I couldn't imagine going through this single and living alone.

As for transmission, a lot of people my age and younger have either had limited interaction with their elders or avoided physical contact altogether. My bubble has essentially been my wife, my mother and mother-in-law for much of the year. Only started seeing a few friends here and there since the fall. I still can't visit my father/ brothers in New York until they all get their second shot. It's been a year and a half.

CaliNative Apr 4, 2021 4:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9237880)
Throwing out Vietnam to lessen contemporary grievances doesn't jive. Yes, shipping kids off to fight (and die) in a war they really didn't want to be in was an in my opinion, inexcusable. The US wised up in 1973 by ending the draft. My stepfather never mentally recovered from the shit he experienced over there but we're not fighting a war now and the distress the pandemic is causing is no less sincere. I'm not talking about 10023 not being able to ski but it's taken a toll on mental health. I couldn't imagine going through this single and living alone.

As for transmission, a lot of people my age and younger have either had limited interaction with their elders or avoided physical contact altogether. My bubble has essentially been my wife, my mother and mother-in-law for much of the year. Only started seeing a few friends here and there since the fall. I still can't visit my father/ brothers in New York until they all get their second shot. It's been a year and a half.

The last year has been tough on everyone, young and old. What angers me is that if everybody or at least 90% wore effective masks and practiced social distancing for a few weeks a year ago, we could have been out of this mess by last summer, just like countries like New Zealand, Taiwan and S. Korea shut it down. Our restaurants and bars and stadiums could have been opened many months ago if we acted responsibly like New Zealanders.

mhays Apr 4, 2021 5:08 AM

You're not wrong, CaliNative.

the urban politician Apr 4, 2021 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9237739)
Yeah, and I’ve improved my situation by going to Miami. Otherwise, speak for yourself. Plus, no offense, but you’re a middle aged guy in the suburbs with kids, and that’s a group that generally seems to feel pretty ok about all of this based on my anecdotal observations. The more one’s normal life differs from lockdown life, the more burdensome it has been. You also earn a living, as I understand it, from things that have been less affected whereas my business has been badly affected.

Holy crap, I’m middle aged? I thought I’m still a year away from that.

I would argue that my life was MORE affected than yours was, even though you bitched to high heaven (and I bitched to low heaven). Here’s it affected me but NOT you, I presume:

1. My kids e-learned. That had a huge affect on our lives, since my wife and I cannot work from home. I also feel it negatively impacted their development. If anything were to bother me most about the pandemic, it would be this

2. I actually had to keep showing up for work with a mask on. I didn’t have the luxury of WFH or a union to help me not show up for the job I agreed to do

3. I did get hurt economically. I’m very involved with urban rentals which got hit particularly hard, with rental rates plummeting while vacancies soared, really hitting my margins hard

4. I have been known around here as being one of the biggest Chicago boosters. While I will always love the place, much of that evaporated over the pandemic. I have also questioned why I am in a region where our central city became a shadow of its former self overnight. If I’m going to be a “suburban Dad”, why not do it in a warmer and lower cost locale?

jtown,man Apr 4, 2021 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9237336)
if only illness or death were the extent of the outcomes. unfortunately lingering health issues can affect all ages. :shrug:

Why move the goal posts?

Only death should cripple our economy and add 5 trillion to our debt.

jtown,man Apr 4, 2021 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9237615)
In December, hospitalization rates were 4.8/100000 among 18-29 year olds and 67.9 among 65+ year olds. The most recent data (March 27) show them to be 2.2/100000 among 18-29 year olds and 12.5 among 65+ year olds. That's a drop from 14:1 to 6:1. And the numbers are changing rapidly as we vaccinate 1% of the population, mostly over 65, every 2 days.

Source: https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/covid19_3.html

All I see is that hospitalization rates have gone down, great.

jtown,man Apr 4, 2021 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9237694)
Cloistering right now, in the US, Canada and the UK should be unnecessary. As I've said, I'm for taking all restrictions off individual outdoor activity. whether dining or sports or whatever (spectator sports and entertainment in outdoor venues with crowds excepted).

I think vaccinated people and the young who want to take the chance can do things like shopping, even in malls and so on but they should wear masks and avoid crowds. I think the riskiest places are bars and pubs and those should not be allowed to serve indoors. If we are going to have outdoor crowds at sports and concert activities, they should be distanced (unrelated people sitting 6 ft apart).

The shaming is largely because irresponsible people, mostly but not exclusively young, are just behaving badly IMHO with their scenes like in Miami for Spring Break (so far no videos posted of last night's Arizona women's Final Four victory celebration but I'm going to bet it was ugly). Sitting on the beach, swimming, beach volleyball, relaxed fun in the sun and even outdoor drinking with a few friends isn't enough--they have to pack as many people into small spaces, unmasked, as they can and get rowdy. That should be shamed IMHO.

There's no getting around the fact that neither the young nor many of the old are isolated in our society and if they are passing around the virus among each other, it's going to spread to the rest of us. All anybody has to do right now is wear a mask indoors, maintain some distance from strangers outdoors and get vaccinated when you can.. Local governments should, IMHO keep the riskiest, least essential venues like indoor drinking establishments closed for now (but probably only for a another month or two--until everybody they can induce to get vaccinated has had a chance). It's spring so outdoor drinking and dining should work again. Gyms can probably reopen with care--keep people distanced and make them wear masks if they are within 15 feet or so of each other and the ventilation isn't exceptional for an indoor space (sorry about that, but you exhale far more aerosols exercising than resting and you need to wear a mask if doing it indoors even though you hate it).

I look at what past generations endured--war, depression and so on--and I just can't get too worked up about the "suffering" of today's 18-39 year olds. Just do what you should do and not what you want to do for once.


Why would someone wear a mask if they are vaccinated?

You are all about data and science (you've been really incredible with the information you've provided over the last year), so why ignore science and wear a mask?

jtown,man Apr 4, 2021 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliNative (Post 9237900)
The last year has been tough on everyone, young and old. What angers me is that if everybody or at least 90% wore effective masks and practiced social distancing for a few weeks a year ago, we could have been out of this mess by last summer, just like countries like New Zealand, Taiwan and S. Korea shut it down. Our restaurants and bars and stadiums could have been opened many months ago if we acted responsibly like New Zealanders.

There is zero domestic evidence to back that up. The current worst states in the country for cases are all states that are heavily masked. Texas and Arkansas, as of last week, had one of the lowest counts per 100k, both states that recently ended their mask mandates.

the urban politician Apr 4, 2021 1:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtown,man (Post 9237976)
All I see is that hospitalization rates have gone down, great.

Yeah, I saw the same thing. Pedestrian, you seriously are getting kooky on us. Hospitalization rates for the young are actually DOWN for the young with the data you posted. All that changed is that the ratio of elderly to young getting hospitalized went down. That simply shows that the vaccines are working as they should. You aren’t making your point, you’re making 10023’s point.

Not picking on you, Pedestrian, but I hear you talk as if you never will leave your home again. Virus really got you freaked, don’t it? Well, if you’ve been vaccinated, then at your age you really need to live. Life doesn’t last forever, and we only get one life.

My elderly parents got their shots and we are already making plans to do some road trips with them as the weather warms up. They want to go to Door County, WI. Stop living in fear, and stop spreading so much needless fear to others.

the urban politician Apr 4, 2021 1:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtown,man (Post 9237979)
Why would someone wear a mask if they are vaccinated?

You are all about data and science (you've been really incredible with the information you've provided over the last year), so why ignore science and wear a mask?

The argument is that it’s better to have a masking policy because we don’t always know who wasn’t and who was vaccinated. Most vaccinated people aren’t wearing a sign on their chest that says “Hey I got the vaccine!” So.....wear a mask for the time being to eliminate any confusion or resentment from others while in public. I think it makes sense.

jtown,man Apr 4, 2021 1:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9237994)
The argument is that it’s better to have a masking policy because we don’t always know who wasn’t and who was vaccinated. Most vaccinated people aren’t wearing a sign on their chest that says “Hey I got the vaccine!” So.....wear a mask for the time being to eliminate any confusion or resentment from others while in public. I think it makes sense.

I understand that argument, however, I don't trust our politicians or the media. I saw an article yesterday saying indoor dining may be banned again in parts of Illinois because of increased hospitalizations! Somehow Illinois could handle 12,000 cases a day a few months ago but now hospitalizations are becoming a huge issue with 2,000 cases a day? I am not buying it.

You've seen it on here too- people are continually moving the goal posts. Our governor found a new phase(!), phase 4.5 once he realized his metric of "widely available vaccine" was so close to being a reality.

Let me be clear, I wear my mask indoors because its the law here and even if it weren't, I would (of course) if it was the business policy. I am not some asshole. I even wore a mask at an outdoor Trump rally last year (masked people probably made up maybe 10% of the people). This isn't political for me in that sense. However, I won't wear a mask outdoors anymore (unless its freezing) and if I have to continue to be masked indoors in Chicago for much longer, I will simply take my business (grocery shopping, restaurants, shopping in general) to Indiana.

the urban politician Apr 4, 2021 1:53 PM

^ Oh, I never said I like the politicians. I can’t stand Pritzker and most of those Bozos, they are the scum of the earth. I’m just saying that a good citizen would still wear their mask while in public and indoors for the reasons I stated.

10023 Apr 4, 2021 2:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliNative (Post 9237900)
The last year has been tough on everyone, young and old. What angers me is that if everybody or at least 90% wore effective masks and practiced social distancing for a few weeks a year ago, we could have been out of this mess by last summer, just like countries like New Zealand, Taiwan and S. Korea shut it down. Our restaurants and bars and stadiums could have been opened many months ago if we acted responsibly like New Zealanders.

I don’t believe that this is true.

New Zealand has cut itself off from the world, and they can’t reopen until their population is fully vaccinated because they currently have zero population immunity.

Those countries in East Asia all had some level of pre-existing immunity due to exposure to similar viruses in the past. I am absolutely convinced of that. My sister lives in Tokyo and there’s no way they could have come out of this so well, with no proper lockdown, if that were not the case.

10023 Apr 4, 2021 2:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9237854)
Short of doing what 10023 has always advocated--locking grandma and grandpa up at home and feeding them through a slot in the door like a zoo animal--the young and old are not isolated from one another in western democracies. Old people have to shop for food and many aren't as lucky as I am and able to afford the 50% or so more it costs to have things delivered. Things break at home and a repairman has to come in and fix them. Dental visits and routine medical care with younger dental assistance and medical staff have to occur.

And how much cheaper would it have been for states or the feds to just cover the cost of grocery and other delivery? Medical offices are not crowded and should be able to adhere to strict hygiene standards (in normal times, forget the virus). Plus there are senior shopping hours - you just can’t seem to make the small sacrifice of waking up a bit earlier to take advantage of them.

So what, I have to be locked up for a year and prevented from doing anything that I enjoy, because I might breathe near you in a grocery store that you’re too lazy to visit in the first couple hours after it opens? Give me a damn break.

mhays Apr 4, 2021 4:47 PM

Visiting this thread occasionally...10023 just keeps going with the alternate reality delusions. It's too bad this know-everything savior isn't in charge!


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:43 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.