One of the biggest challenges Europeans don't understand about America is distances.
Here's a few examples just to make that point.

London to Birmingham is 125 miles
London to Brussels is 225 miles
London to Paris is 282 miles
London to Amsterdam is 330 miles
London to Dublin is 371 miles
London to Edinburgh is 413 miles
London to Berlin is 678 miles
London to Milan is 803 miles
London to Rome is 1160 miles
London to Moscow is 1784 miles
London to Istanbul is 1861 miles

New York City to Philadelphia is 94 miles
New York City to Boston is 215 miles
New York City to D.C. is 226 miles
New York City to Montreal is 370 miles
New York City to Toronto is 491 miles
New York City to Chicago is 790 miles
New York City to Atlanta is 871 miles
New York City to Miami is 1283 miles
New York City to New Orleans is 1303 miles
Chicago to New Orleans is 926 miles
Chicago to Los Angeles is 2015 miles (+790 miles to NYC = 2805 miles)
Chicago to Seattle is 2063 miles (+790 miles to NYC = 2853 miles)
Chicago to San Francisco is 2132 miles (+790 miles to NYC = 2922 miles)

Close to 50% of Amtrak passengers board or alight in New York City. That's why I used mostly train distances from New York City. The lower 48 states of the USA is 1,000 miles wider than all of Europe. Planned HSR services distances from London reach around 330 miles. That doesn't even get a HSR train to Montreal from New York City. FYI: Amtrak's Northeast Corridor has fast trains already.
I haven't read any future expansion of HSR services single seat rides between London and Moscow. Likewise I don't ever expect HSR services between New York City and the USA West Coast. The distances are just too far for HSR trains to be competitive with jets...

Costs also come into play as well. England projects over 17 Billion pounds to build the 125 miles or so HSR2 between London and Birmingham. Chicago is more than 6 times further, and will probably cost more than 6 times more to build, at least $154 Billion, assuming similar construction costs. The Federal Highway program lhis year is funded at $47 Billion. If ALL the Federal Highways funds were given to make a HSR line from New York City to Chicago, it'll still take 3 to 4 years to fund - with nothing left for transit and highways.

Europe itself is still larger then the US...so that nukes the whole distance thing... Even if you take out Western Russia and Turkey , and you compare continental Europe with the lower 48 , Europe would still win.

Really? Per Wiki:
North America
9,540,000 square miles
populatiom 565,265,000
population density 59/sq mi
Europe
3,930,000 square miles
population 742,452,000
population density 188/sq mi

Let's stick to comparing the same things, continents to continents instead of a country to a continent. :)

North America is three times larger than Europe, although Europe has the larger population.
FYI: The area of the USA is 3,805,927 square miles, slightly less than all of Europe.

Neither the USA or Europe are discussing a HSR network linking all, so that point is mute. Every proposed line links large cities. You rarely see large American cities located with 125 miles of one another, outside Amtrak's NEC. But that is very common all over Europe.

North America includes Canada , Mexico and many smaller nations that of course make larger then Europe.... I was just talking about the United States...

This thread has gone off-topic. This thread is about project updates & related discussion ONLY, to quote the thread title. It's not about Europe, it's not about airplanes, it's not about anything except California High Speed Rail.

California should move ahead with HSR as quickly as possible, no matter what the cost. Happy now?

Whether or not they have the political will to make HSR happen fast is secondary to the fact they don't have the money to make it happen fast. The budget relies on a lot of federal money that they just plain aren't going to get anytime soon.

YEs but europe has nearly twice the population. If the US had 600 million people and another 70 or 80 million there would be enough population density to make HSR a reasonable venture, but for about 70% of the country HSR is not worthwile at all.

Across most of the continent you have a major city of 1-5 million sperated by hundreds of miles of virtual nothingness.

Also as somone said there isnt hug edmand for high speed train travel from London to Moscow or Lisbon to St. Petersburg.

I live in Arizona, We have about 6.6 million people. Phoenix and Tucson account for about 6 million of that and they are seperated by about 100 miles of farms and small towns. The rest of the state is little more than isolated villages and wilderness. Did I mention it is 295,254 km² Which is the same area as itally, which has a population of 59 million people.

And we are still number 15 in population there are 35 states smaller in population (and probably size) than Arizona.

I could see a somewhat Comprehsive High speed system ont he east side of the mississisppi and maybe 2 or 3 independent networks, (California, Texas triange, and Peuget sound)

but that would still be decades from viability or funding.

Obadno:
True-- but nobody is proposing building high-speed rail in these vast, low-density areas. What is being proposed is high-speed rail in dense corridors (Northeast, upper Midwest, LA - Bay Area, etc...). I wish people would stick with the facts and not conjure up strawman arguments. We already have enough of this with Fox 'News.'

Quote:
Across most of the continent you have a major city of 1-5 million sperated by hundreds of miles of virtual nothingness.


Set aside that this is inflammatory and dismissive, this statement, unless referring to the western plains or mountain west states isn't even accurate. Coasters may call it flyover country but there are plenty of ~75,000-150,000 smallish cities that would have intermediate stops on such a system and would feed into the patronage riding between very large metros. People have to get past thinking about HSR like they think about air travel. A plane leaves one city and lands in another, and for the most part all passengers are traveling this singular leg to leave their origins and arrive at their destinations. HSR, like rail travel before it, has multiple intermediate stops, collecting and discharging passengers along the way. For this reason HSR has the potential to be much more useful and efficient than point to point flights less than ~400-500 miles in distance.

If you two had read my entire post.

I could see a somewhat Comprehsive High speed system ont he east side of the mississisppi and maybe 2 or 3 independent networks, (California, Texas triange, and Peuget sound)

but that would still be decades from viability or funding.

I am a fan of High speed rail, dont get me wrong here. But expecting a network that is as comprehensive and popular as the European or Jappaneses systems is a fantasy.

It wont happen for not only financial reasons but cultural reasons. One of the main ones being "profitability" which, of course, it wont be otherwise Union pacific would have built bullet trains 30 years ago. And beleive it or not car culture is a real thing in America, cars represent freedom.

What you have in california is ambitious but unpopular and vastly underfunded. Best case scenario is over 10 years and 60 billion dollars. Chances are it will take longer and be more expensive than that.

If the full line is ever completed it will be used as an example of a boondogle in other states when the riderships and yearly costs roll in.

I like the idea of high spped rail but like many ideas of Urbanism etc I reject forcing the issue at high cost that will ultimately make HSR look like a waste. When the United States has the density and cultural will to build high speed rail we will.

I think it could work in the states if its major destinations only. Like everyone says cost is the biggest problem.

But I hope some one can figure it out because we need a transit upgrade. I know here in Toronto where getting crush by a bad transit system.

ex my house to work in a straight line by the highway 401. is 22 km and 25 min to 35 min in rush hour. I'm lucky I'm not going with the traffic.

So I could see a nyc to boston, nyc to washington, and other close major cities.
what they need to do is stop talking and start doing.

The other problem is america loves to build highways, the car is freedom, a source of big profits, and a huge job creator.

I hope they do start with the hsr in cali.

you build it and they will come.

California is right to build this now, even if they have to 'force it' on some people at some expense. Waiting for greater demand and density would be a mistake. Obtaining a right-of-way now before land use gets any denser and more expensive is the only way this project is ever going to happen. Let it be called a boondoggle and whatever else makes critics feel superior. As long as a decent right-of-way is obtained where trains can travel at full speed, without delays, and to the centers of cities, then it is only a matter of time before this thing becomes a success.

What CA was promised and what we'll actually get are two totally different systems.

^omg, can you give me the powerball numbers???

First time here, and I must say this:

Now that the HSR project in California has started in Fresno, I am looking forward to the day that I will be able to ride it from San Francisco all the way down to Los Angeles and intermediate points, like Fresno or Bakersfield... Perhaps the next step forward: I would like to pay my fare wirelessly or using a commuter card like Clipper or TAP card (LA) so that I won't need to hassle handling several tickets.

I think it's a fairly safe bet that's going to happen. I wonder why mass transit in LA and the Bay Area don't offer fare cards that are good in both areas. Shouldn't be too difficult to key the location into the information on the data strip.

It reminds me of what Japan has at the moment, in which passengers can use both Suica and Pasmo for transit networks beyond the confines of Tokyo... and I think that Suica (and their counterparts) can be used for long-distance trains in Japan to help make journeys easier.

More information

Im sure once HSR becomes close to a reality in both cities, then it will make sense for both respective metros to look at joining forces

I once stayed at a B&B in Bath, England and the proprietor had a daughter who lived in Seattle. When I apologized for our late arrival the owner's comment was: " Europeans think 100 miles is far and North Americans think 100 years is old".
In spite of things being old in Europe they are more willing , probably as a result of wars to refurbish and modernize existing infrastructure and adopt newer technology. They also have a much more balanced approach to investing in competing modes.

Not to mention, if tickets can be processed (and encoded) on a smartphone, it will become much, much easier to travel around the state. It can significantly shorten wait times at the ticket gates and on vehicles, and it will allow smoother journeys on transit. There will be a large missing link, however, in the Central Valley, especially in Fresno where there is currently no commuter card program similar to either Clipper in the SF Bay Area or TAP in Los Angeles... if, however, Compass Card in San Diego is accepted on the High Speed Rail (and its Metrolink and Coaster counterparts), it would surely help those regions have interconnected card networks, allowing commuters to use any of those cards to travel through the three major cities in the state.

As an aside, I don't think Sacramento has a similar system as Clipper; however, a transit agency which feeds into Sacramento now accepts the Bay Area commuter card as a form of payment. It made me think: could Clipper be expanded to Sacramento (and into RT as well) so that all of the major cities in the state are covered by at least one commuter card? I ask because Sacramento is also one of the terminals for the high-speed rail, and it will be especially helpful if Clipper, TAP, and Compass can be used to complete one's journey from north to south and vice versa.

Well, it's hardly "high-speed" rail, not yet, but it looks like they're working on more unified ticketing in southern California, at least:

http://www.latimes.com/local/transportation/

I was surprised to learn that the San Diego-San Luis Obispo corridor is the second busiest in the country. Kind of makes me wonder why we didn't start building HSR there instead of around Fresno.

Siemens recently set up a promotion on the steps of the California capitol in Sacramento... they have not won the bid to produce trainsets for CAHSR, but stuff like this definitely helps their case.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8568/...76407c96_b.jpg
flickr/Jim Action Jackson

Because they wanted to run the trains on the other route away from San Luis Obispo. While eventually reaching San Diego, they also aren't following the Surfliner route in that direction.

California HSR isn't designed nor being built to replace the Surfliners. It's being built to add new train services in different locations within the state.

Would love to cruise around the state on one of those. Coincidentally we flew to the SF area this weekend (flew into SFO, flew out of SJC due to events we attended) and it was a mess on the flight back. It was just one of those regional jets, and it was delayed by an hour getting in to SJC. Then, we all boarded and then had to wait an hour because even tho there was no issue with the ability to take off at SJC but LAX had no additional space for planes to land (we lost our spot since were delayed so much). Point being the airplane capacity issue is present right now, and will only get worse in the future. Can't wait for the CAHSR to open!

In the interim they really should run new SF(or at least East Bay)-LA service ASAP

Here is a report on the start of construction of the California High Speed Rail project.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...oject-to-start

I'm still very worried about the fact they haven't been able to acquire the right of way for the segments they are supposed to be building now. California really needs to step it up and start enforcing eminent domain. It's a very questionable decision to start construction without all of the right of way in your hands. Many projects have been significantly slowed or had substantial cost overruns due to making this mistake.

PS: Google "Road build around apartments China". There are many hilarious examples of them building roads and then a judge granting a land owners lawsuit to not have to move and there ends up being an apartment stuck right in the middle of a road. Those are just silly examples, but here in the US there have been many projects that have had to change locations after construction started due to these sort of issues. The big bridge project in Louisville is building a $200 Million tunnel because they couldn't get the rights to a piece of property and are instead tunneling under it.

This is inherent in the nature of public works. What do you propose to avoid the problem? Generally, planners and politicians have assumed that starting the project was the best remedy, as eventually the court of public opinion would turn against the holdouts and they would lose hope. Hence the situation in China where roads were literally built around homes.

In China, this doesn't matter since public opinion is worthless in a totalitarian state. In America, the demands of taxpayers to get their money's worth out of a new highway will eventually shame a holdout property owner into leaving, or turn a jury against the holdout owner.

Proposed station in Burbank could serve as hub for California high-speed rail
 

Proposed station in Burbank could serve as hub for California high-speed rail
State's High-Speed Rail Authority shares information on the proposed bullet train.

By Chad Garland
Burbank Leader
May 19, 2015

"There may come a day when a business professional hops on the Metro Orange Line at Warner Center at 7 a.m. and travels to San Francisco for an 11 a.m. meeting without stepping foot on a plane or in a car.

That's a possibility that excites Russell Brown. He was one of dozens of area residents at a public meeting at the Buena Vista Branch Library on Monday to hear the latest on the “transformative” infrastructure project that could make that vision a reality: the bullet train that will eventually run from Sacramento to San Diego.

Michelle Boehm, Southern California regional director for the California High-Speed Rail Authority, said the bullet train will be a critical piece in a transit system that brings together various modes of transportation to connect Northern and Southern California and alleviate freeway and short-haul air traffic..."

http://www.burbankleader.com/news/tn...,7951362.story

This story caught me off guard:
​Nevada joins the high-speed rail bandwagon with plans for Vegas, SoCal link
LINK

This makes it sound like 'XpressWest' might be getting some state support from a new 'Nevada High Speed Rail Authority'. It makes sense that XpressWest would at least be eligible, as they have been around the longest in this corridor and have many plans already drawn up.
This seems like a big deal to me. How legitimate is it?

I don't understand why anyone would move forward with a Las Vegas to Victorville line, with the hope that someday it'll be linked to the rest of the system.

Victorville is seriously in the middle of nowhere.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XpressWest

XpressWest isn't getting any money from the Feds anytime soon so this may be Nevada trying to keep momentum/pressure going.

As for Victorville, it's on the way to Palmdale, where XpressWest would meet CAHSR.

You'd think that the connection would be set in stone versus a build it and someday, with some money connect it to CaHSR. Pretty big gap, requiring a bus transfer? Just seems like a headache.

A vegas spur makes sense, it should be a see less connection IMO.

https://en.wiki2.org/wikipedia/commo...sr_map.svg.png
https://en.wiki2.org/wikipedia/commo...sr_map.svg.png

Why would any private company invest in a high speed rail line that has a terminus that does not offer frequent rail connections into Los Angeles? This does not make sense.

Exactly. The only way this line would work is if it terminated at Union Station... or an area like Pasadena

Because it's Los Angeles, the car capital of the world.

So Angelenos are expected to drive to Victorville, park for a fee and then catch a train to Vegas, which will require a taxi once there to get to your hotel on the strip? I don't see how this would be successful at all.

Dumbest comment of the thread. I know a lot of people that go to vegas at least 5 or 6 times a year and not 1 of them would drive to victorville and jump on a train to go to vegas. You're practically half way there once you get to Victorville lol

Good grief. These projects cannot be developed in isolation. There needs to be local connectivity so that a large number of people can get to their final destination without a lot of hassle and extra expense. I don't see how this accomplishes this. Where are the good (or even great) intermodal transit hubs at each end of the line? Is there a plan for this? Or are we going to just dump passengers in the middle of nowhere to fend for themselves? If so, failure is guaranteed. Times are changing fast and connectivity is expected by potential customers.

Stopping in Victorville is like being caught between a rock and a hard place. Topography suggests it would be most cost effective to make the run from Victorville to meet up with CAHSR in Palmdale (or straight from Barstow to Palmdale), but you'd end up with longer travel times.

The positive is that they could bypass Cajon Pass, which would be a substantial capital cost that they clearly expect to be funded by Californians, which is unlikely in our lifetimes.

The connection between Palmdale and Victorville is absolutely necessary. The XpressWest people know this, and have said it would definitely be part of a 'phase 2', which would be completed when California's high speed rail is completed between LA and Palmdale.
What is the timeline for that project?
My guess is that XpressWest will probably be delayed substantially until this section of California's network is at least closer to construction. Building the Victorville-LV section as a stand-alone starter system would clearly not work. The important things they could do in this corridor now is planning (so that there will be public transit available at the future station in Las Vegas) and right-of-way preservation. Beyond that, I wouldn't expect much to be done until California is serious about the LA-Palmdale section.
It is encouraging to know, though, that Nevada wants this link enough to give it some state support. That makes me hopeful that something will be built eventually.

Certainly not definitive news it will move forward, but still good news. We are starting to see positive spin off effects of CA HSR starting construction. AAF starting construction and appearing viable doesn't hurt, either. With TX HSR looking more viable everyday, what an exciting time for passenger rail in the US :cheers:

And how many of them would drive to Union station and pay twice as much? The fact people wouldn't use the train is a reason not to build it, not a reason to throw more money at it. If the cheap section can't make money then there's no way the far more expensive one can.

I don't really follow this thread that closely, so this may have already been brought up, but the planned High Desert Corridor could potentially solve the Victorville-Palmdale gap which is currently being discussed.

http://thesource.metro.net/2014/10/0...y-is-released/

http://lametthesource.files.wordpres..._eng.jpg?w=863

San Fernando leaders confront state officials over bullet train route
 

San Fernando leaders confront state officials over bullet train route

By RALPH VARTABEDIAN
MAY 30, 2015, 5:00 AM
LA Times

“Finding a route into the Los Angeles Basin for the California bullet train is proving far more difficult than it seemed a year ago, as opposition is surging in wealthy and working­class communities alike.

The depth of opposition became more apparent Thursday evening when protesters in the city of San Fernando took over an open house meeting held by the California High­Speed Rail Authority. They demanded that state officials answer questions about the project's impact on their community.

But unlike typical protests, this one was led by elected officials. Seventy people, headed by the city's mayor pro tem and other current and former city officials, marched into a city auditorium and set up their own public address system….”

http://www.latimes.com/local/califor...530-story.html

What a bunch of a-holes.

Scenes like these make me want to stage a pro-CAHSR counterappearance at one of these community meetings. The media will continue to cover the veracity of the nay-sayers; they're the only ones who are flashy enough for the station's attention.

I'm worried that if we pro-HSR's don't get out there and equate their energy in favor of the project, those who are iffy about the project will only see the propaganda of said nay-sayers and will think that the momentum of the project is swaying in the irreversible direction of defeat- then they too will become opponents of it.

In the big picture of things, the entire CAHSR system indeed has a lot of momentum behind; but since we're at point where heavy construction has yet to commence, the project can still be stopped. Only after a few years of track laying with tangible results will it be safe to say that CAHSR will become may reality. We need to get out there the next time they make a scene and make a scene right back- with solid accurate information that will show the media, California and the rest of the country that HSR isn't Jerry Brown's pipe dream; its still a legitimate and practical need and in the interest of millions of californians. We need to create that image! If anyone possibly interested in appearing at one of their anti-hsr meetings with some signs/thoughts of our own?

:cheers:

I've always been hoping that some organizers finally come forward to set up a pro-HSR (and general pro-development) gathering for good projects like these. As always in California the vocal minorities are disproportionate in their ability to be heard and influence. California is a liberal state but is getting too conservative in many ways.

Meet the People Getting Screwed Over By Jerry Brown’s High Speed Rail

Read More: http://reason.com/reasontv/2015/06/0...crewed-over-by




• Video Link

I would expect more from the Reason Foundatiion- wait no I wouldn't.