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-   -   How Is Covid-19 Impacting Life in Your City? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242036)

mhays Jun 19, 2020 4:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 8956449)
Let young people get it, build herd immunity, and be done with this.

Most people will get it eventually, before there’s a vaccine that can be widely distributed. The young are not generally at risk, don’t require hospitalization, and will not overwhelm the healthcare system. The more that get it before the predicted second wave the better, because more people with antibodies will actually reduce the severity of said second wave.

Older people should continue to be in a more strict lockdown, like France and Italy had in March/April, while all of this happens.

I guess if you start with your misconceptions, then why not go for it. But we have to start with what we know instead.

You're like a recurring advertisement in why basic Covid education is important.

10023 Jun 20, 2020 9:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mousquet (Post 8956465)
Italy has had a notorious demographic problem (which is a pain to me, because I like their country very much), but France's fertility rate and youth are still the most dynamic of Western Europe on average, year after year... I don't fear anything much. My country can get over anything. It is strong in spite of all our ugly faults.

Look at figures and see how pitiful the UK has been in the crisis. It is worse than Spain and Italy.

Mon grand, s'il faut te remettre à ta place, moi je le ferai sans pitiè, hein. I don't care about your queen. I don't even know about her story.
Mais tu crois que t'es qui ? Un seigneur sorti d'on ne sait où ? T'es rien de plus que n'importe quel autre frère ici.
Voilà.

Has the UK been pitiful?

There have been more deaths per capita, as everywhere mostly very elderly people, but we have not been subjected to such a strict lockdown as France or Spain. That’s a good trade off in my view.

10023 Jun 20, 2020 9:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays (Post 8956564)
I guess if you start with your misconceptions, then why not go for it. But we have to start with what we know instead.

You're like a recurring advertisement in why basic Covid education is important.

What have I said that’s incorrect?

The UK has had less than 400 deaths of people under 40, and almost all of those had serious pre-existing chronic health conditions.

eschaton Jun 20, 2020 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 8957351)
What have I said that’s incorrect?

The UK has had less than 400 deaths of people under 40, and almost all of those had serious pre-existing chronic health conditions.

I simply don't see how you manage to selectively lockdown older people, unless perhaps you go the route that was being mooted in Israel where you intentionally infect volunteers in the armed forces, keep them isolated until they have cleared the virus, and then use them as a pandemic labor force.

10023 Jun 20, 2020 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschaton (Post 8957367)
I simply don't see how you manage to selectively lockdown older people, unless perhaps you go the route that was being mooted in Israel where you intentionally infect volunteers in the armed forces, keep them isolated until they have cleared the virus, and then use them as a pandemic labor force.

You give different guidance to old people and young people, and businesses like restaurants and bars are allowed to have a maximum age for entry just as they have a minimum age of entry today.

the urban politician Jun 20, 2020 2:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mousquet (Post 8956465)
Italy has had a notorious demographic problem (which is a pain to me, because I like their country very much), but France's fertility rate and youth are still the most dynamic of Western Europe on average, year after year... I don't fear anything much. My country can get over anything. It is strong in spite of all our ugly faults.

Look at figures and see how pitiful the UK has been in the crisis. It is worse than Spain and Italy.

Mon grand, s'il faut te remettre à ta place, moi je le ferai sans pitiè, hein. I don't care about your queen. I don't even know about her story.
Mais tu crois que t'es qui ? Un seigneur sorti d'on ne sait où ? T'es rien de plus que n'importe quel autre frère ici.
Voilà.

You guys keep criticizing the UK and the US over the pandemic response.

The truth is, more top-down, administrative-heavy societies (Continental Europe, China, etc) that tolerate more central authority are naturally going to respond better to a pandemic. That’s just a strength within that type of system.

UK and US have a culture of weaker central Government and a stronger private sector. Make no mistake, this type of system has a natural disadvantage when you are trying to lockdown and get everybody to fall in line (as they say, trying to “herd cats”).

But let’s not forget that when this pandemic is finally over, everybody will once again be looking to open, liberal places like the US and UK to bring prosperity and innovation back.

No more looking down our noses at the nations that made today’s world essentially what it is, despite some of their inherent flaws.

Encolpius Jun 20, 2020 2:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 8957351)
What have I said that’s incorrect?

The UK has had less than 400 deaths of people under 40, and almost all of those had serious pre-existing chronic health conditions.

10023, even if you have relatively mild symptoms COVID may permanently damage your sense of smell and taste.

How are you, of all people, not more frightened of this? Is the whole food snob schtick just an act?

the urban politician Jun 20, 2020 3:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encolpius (Post 8957403)
10023, even if you have relatively mild symptoms COVID may permanently damage your sense of smell and taste.

How are you, of all people, not more frightened of this? Is the whole food snob schtick just an act?

I don’t ever recall 10023 saying that people shouldn’t try to avoid getting sick.

I mean, his point is clear as day if anybody will spend two seconds processing it. The response to the pandemic has been WAY too dramatic and is destroying lives every single day. A virus that makes you lose the sense of smell (temporarily in a majority of situations) would not be worthy of mandating a complete lockdown everywhere.

mhays Jun 20, 2020 3:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 8957351)
What have I said that’s incorrect?

The UK has had less than 400 deaths of people under 40, and almost all of those had serious pre-existing chronic health conditions.

Oh my god, where to start. How about the impossibility of separating the "young" from the more highly at risk. And the resulting devastation when that separation doesn't happen.

You seem to think that guy-on-street logic should trump actual knowledge.

Vlajos Jun 20, 2020 4:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays (Post 8957450)
Oh my god, where to start. How about the impossibility of separating the "young" from the more highly at risk. And the resulting devastation when that separation doesn't happen.

You seem to think that guy-on-street logic should trump actual knowledge.

It's impossible to separate people? That's news to me.

iheartthed Jun 20, 2020 4:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encolpius (Post 8957403)
10023, even if you have relatively mild symptoms COVID may permanently damage your sense of smell and taste.

How are you, of all people, not more frightened of this? Is the whole food snob schtick just an act?

He's being deliberately obtuse. There are enough examples of younger people suffering serious complications that no one at any age should take for granted that they will survive an infection without complications.

There also has not been a medical consensus on whether people who were previously infected become immune to reinfection. In other words, herd immunity might not even be possible.

Quote:

Doctors at Northwestern Memorial Hospital in Chicago announced Thursday they've performed the first successful double-lung transplant on a COVID-19 patient in the United States.

The woman in her 20s was otherwise healthy but developed a severe case of COVID-19 that resulted in hospitalization, says Dr. Ankit Bharat, Northwestern's chief of thoracic surgery.

For two months, she was in the intensive care unit on a ventilator and another machine, known as ECMO, that pumps and oxygenates blood outside of the body. Although she eventually cleared the coronavirus from her body, she remained in severe condition.

By early June, Bharat says the patient's lungs showed irreversible damage. She was at risk of further decline and began showing signs that her kidneys and liver were starting to fail with no improvement in her lung function.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...med-in-chicago

JManc Jun 20, 2020 5:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 8957369)
You give different guidance to old people and young people, and businesses like restaurants and bars are allowed to have a maximum age for entry just as they have a minimum age of entry today.

LOL, No they're not. That's straight up age discrimination and very illegal. You are as bad as Dumpsters downplaying the virus and refusing to wear a mask because of freedumb.

Again, you're focusing on deaths but I don't know about you but even without the risk of dying, I don't want to risk getting severely ill if I don't have to.

craigs Jun 20, 2020 8:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 8957414)
I don’t ever recall 10023 saying that people shouldn’t try to avoid getting sick.

Then you have an Alzheimers-grade memory. From the very same page:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 8956449)
Let young people get it, build herd immunity, and be done with this.


mhays Jun 20, 2020 9:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlajos (Post 8957458)
It's impossible to separate people? That's news to me.

Yes it is.

First there's the issue of deciding who's at risk and who isn't. Many potential "co-morbidities" are unknown until after death. Existing Covid cases are unknown initially. But let's bypass this one...everyone over 60 or with a potential second condition goes behind a wall, separated by your choice of 6 feet (somewhat effective) or 20 feet (better) to stay out of the droplet/vapor zone.

Next, how do you get supplies to tens of millions of people, via a society where most other people will get it at some point? There's the risk at point of transfer, as well as the unprecedented logistical problem. Of course these supplies will need to be paid for since the quarantined mostly don't have incomes.

After that, how do you maintain these practices without errors? The average person isn't bright, and half the people are stupider than that (it's said). People will leave their quarantines, and they'll do it into an endemic world.

Some will do that out of necessity. How do our old people get medical attention, with each living in their own residence? Or do you expect them to live in large resettlements, where any break in the wall means thousands of people at a time are at risk?

The reason the "wall off old people" idea isn't debated outside of fan boards is that even a minute's thought shows it to be competely unworkable.

10023 Jun 21, 2020 3:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 8957493)
LOL, No they're not. That's straight up age discrimination and very illegal. You are as bad as Dumpsters downplaying the virus and refusing to wear a mask because of freedumb.

Again, you're focusing on deaths but I don't know about you but even without the risk of dying, I don't want to risk getting severely ill if I don't have to.

And you don’t have to! You can stay the fuck at home.

As for the age discrimination point, it’s no more illegal than telling us we have to stay at home, or ordering legitimate businesses to close. None of this is normal or legal. I will do what I want, and if I’m fined I won’t pay it.

the urban politician Jun 21, 2020 3:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigs (Post 8957616)
Then you have an Alzheimers-grade memory. From the very same page:

Obviously one should interpret that as “let young people go about their life and in the process build herd immunity”, which doesn’t necessarily mean that young people should actually make an effort to get sick.

craigs Jun 21, 2020 5:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 8957902)
Obviously one should interpret that as “let young people go about their life and in the process build herd immunity”, which doesn’t necessarily mean that young people should actually make an effort to get sick.

That is not obvious at all. Care to make it so?

craigs Jun 21, 2020 5:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 8957895)
You can stay the fuck at home.

So can you. Why should anyone choose your pleasure over others' survival?

10023 Jun 21, 2020 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigs (Post 8957960)
So can you. Why should anyone choose your pleasure over others' survival?

Because others are not at risk from my going out unless they make it so. And they’re not really at risk anyway, because this virus isn’t nearly as deadly as was once feared.

the urban politician Jun 21, 2020 1:46 PM

Just so I’m clear.....

A great number of people living in liberal Western societies (including many on this forum) are okay with having the Government force the closure of everything, and essentially force you to stay at home against your will.

As opposed to:

Strong public messaging highly recommending that people stay at home, especially if they are elderly or have health problems, as well as requiring a mask in public.

It almost seems like some of you here, who for your entire lives have lived in a liberal Western democracy, are just so ready to throw away what you have taken for granted for your entire lives.

I mean, yes—China is doing this Covid response thing better than we are. Let’s admit defeat. We can’t beat them at this. But take a step back and ask yourself this: do you want to have their kind of society or the kind that we currently enjoy? You cannot have both.


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