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-   -   How Is Covid-19 Impacting Life in Your City? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242036)

JManc Oct 9, 2020 9:18 PM

Social distancing is destroying how we interact with people and it's only been six months. Another six months of this shit and we'll be a society of social introverts and awkward around people.

Acajack Oct 9, 2020 9:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9068987)
Social distancing is destroying how we interact with people and it's only been six months. Another six months of this shit and we'll be a society of social introverts and awkward around people.

I am torn between this and the urge to do the right thing on this one.

We tease 10023 a lot for being self-absorbed (and I often do it too!) but on this he - and you and others - do make valid points.

Pedestrian Oct 9, 2020 9:28 PM

I so enjoy reading the whining and crying over the terrible privation of COVID and imagining how this generation would have coped with, say, WW II or the Depression.

One difference is we kind of know when this will end: We WILL have vaccines and effective drugs by the end of the year although probably not enough to give them to everybody. That time may come 3 to 6 months later. A year from now, COVID limitations imposed by government will probably be over but I suspect it will take another year or two before a lot of people really feel comfortable with indoor dining or attending an indoor entertainment event, whether high culture, popular culture or sports. It will be allowed though and those of you who really feel deprived will probably be able to indulge all you want.

We may indeed have some residua of the type JManc implies. Some people have always wanted "their space" preserved and now more are likely too. Some people have never liked crowds and now more are likely to avoid them for a long time to come. There may be some benefits to them personally in that other diseases like colds and flu are transmitted much as COVID is and taking COVID style measures should reduce your chances of catching those as well.

the urban politician Oct 9, 2020 9:30 PM

Throw me in there as well as being 100% convinced that we are overdoing it.

Except for masking and banning large crowds. Those are sensible policies.

Pedestrian Oct 9, 2020 9:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9068995)
We tease 10023 a lot for being self-absorbed (and I often do it too!) but on this he - and you and others - do make valid points.

The valid point is that government has too often been illogical and irrational on this one, sometimes cheered on by the "scientists" who have a narrow vision on the epidemiology of the virus and ignore the consequences, intended and unintended of efforts to control it.

For example, I question the point or value ocf curfews. Why is someone more at risk or dangerous at 11 PM than at 9:30. It depends what they are doing at that hour and most of the things they might do that are risky are themselves banned. If someone craves a midnight stroll, why not?

Michigan seems to have been an example of whacky restriction run riot. But it isn't alone.

I've long said if I were told I literally had to stay at home and couldn't go out, I would ignore such a Chinese-style policy. Between that and simple mask-wearing and reasonable "distancing" there is a lot to debate (argue over if you prefer). And I strongly oppose 10023's ideas about imposing some of the mandatory policies he objects to having applied to him to those more vulnerable, especially in the absence of any governmental help to avoid the risk of going out for necessary purposes (no one's going to do my shopping for me except me unless I pay maybe 50% more to have everything delivered which I can afford but many others can't).

Acajack Oct 9, 2020 9:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9069025)

For example, I question the point or value ocf curfews. Why is someone more at risk or dangerous at 11 PM than at 9:30. It depends what they are doing at that hour and most of the things they might do that are risky are themselves banned. If someone craves a midnight stroll, why not?

Well, here we have imposed much earlier last calls in bars. At first glance that appears odd but when you think about it I guess people who stay out later are likely to drink more, get more drunk, and therefore more likely to not respect the various social distancing and other rules.

niwell Oct 9, 2020 9:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9068965)
That could be the last time for a while, no?

We really only go outside to patios in public and are keeping a bubble (nobody has family in Toronto either) so I think we should be able to keep it up until it gets too cold. Enough people I know work in the industry so at least going to try and keep it going as long as possible!

Acajack Oct 9, 2020 9:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niwell (Post 9069036)
We really only go outside to patios in public and are keeping a bubble (nobody has family in Toronto either) so I think we should be able to keep it up until it gets too cold. Enough people I know work in the industry so at least going to try and keep it going as long as possible!

My wife just said: "We're going out for dinner with the kids! Could be the last chance!"

Indoor dining has not be banned here (yet), but we're surrounded by areas that have banned or are banning it: Ottawa just across the river and Montreal to the east.

Acajack Oct 9, 2020 9:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9068987)
Social distancing is destroying how we interact with people and it's only been six months. Another six months of this shit and we'll be a society of social introverts and awkward around people.

Another thing I am seeing is a kind of neo-puritanism coming out of the woodwork. These people were quiet before but now there are way more people who are anti-bar, anti-alcohol, anti-strip joint, anti-party, etc. who are way more vocal, and advocate for shutting down these things for public health reasons.

Because, "who needs 'em?"

JManc Oct 9, 2020 9:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9069004)
I so enjoy reading the whining and crying over the terrible privation of COVID and imagining how this generation would have coped with, say, WW II or the Depression.

One difference is we kind of know when this will end: We WILL have vaccines and effective drugs by the end of the year although probably not enough to give them to everybody. That time may come 3 to 6 months later. A year from now, COVID limitations imposed by government will probably be over but I suspect it will take another year or two before a lot of people really feel comfortable with indoor dining or attending an indoor entertainment event, whether high culture, popular culture or sports. It will be allowed though and those of you who really feel deprived will probably be able to indulge all you want.

We may indeed have some residua of the type JManc implies. Some people have always wanted "their space" preserved and now more are likely too. Some people have never liked crowds and now more are likely to avoid them for a long time to come. There may be some benefits to them personally in that other diseases like colds and flu are transmitted much as COVID is and taking COVID style measures should reduce your chances of catching those as well.

.

I think there's too much hope pinned on the vaccine and people will still get sick from covid even with it'll widely available at your local CVS. Just like with the flu. As I said in another thread, we're going to have to learn to live with a world with covid and those of us most at risk will have to be more prudent at least until there's a more proven treatment available. 10023 does have somewhat of a point that the rest of us can't give up on life until covid goes away. I absolutely disagree with his views on how to deal with at the at risk population and I take a more libertarian view. It's all about personal accountability but I could deal with living in an area where the governor says i had to wear a mask between bites at a restaurant.

the urban politician Oct 9, 2020 9:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9069025)
The valid point is that government has too often been illogical and irrational on this one, sometimes cheered on by the "scientists" who have a narrow vision on the epidemiology of the virus and ignore the consequences, intended and unintended of efforts to control it.
.

^ This basically should be the official statement of 2020

Pedestrian Oct 9, 2020 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9069051)
.

I think there's too much hope pinned on the vaccine and people will still get sick and die from covid even with it widely available at your local CVS. Just like with the flu. As I said in another thread, we're going to have to learn to live with a world with covid and those of us most at risk will have to be more prudent at least until there's a more proven treatment available. 10023 does have somewhat of a point that the rest of us can't give up on life until covid goes away. I absolutely disagree with his views on how to deal with at the at risk population and I take a more libertarian view. It's all about personal accountability but I could deal with living in an area where the governor says i had to wear a mask between bites at a restaurant.

I expect about 70% effectiveness which is what Tony Fauci and Scott Gottlieb have suggested. If I may mention the T word, Trump's miraculous bounce back is very reassuring about the effectiveness of monoclonal antibodies which, in turn, reasures about the vaccines undergoing testing. They cause the production of endogenous antibodies broader in scope but including those in the monoclonal drugs and if those drugs knock out the disease in people already sick, they should work well to prevent it.

If they are 70% effective or better, it will knock the RO way below 1 which means the disease should gradually become rare--rare enough so there's almost no justification for government restrictions. Whether it will result in true "herd immunity" isn't known because we don't know what that figure is for this virus, but it seems likely new cases will become sporadic.

At that point, we do and can "live with it", especially if besides the vaccine we have a couple of effective monoclonal antibody "cocktails" and one or more additional small molecule antivirals that are effective so that anyone who gets it can be treated and isn't likely to die. At that point it becomes something like HIV--a much more deadly disease--today.

By the way, all the complaints do remind me a lot of the response of some to the HIV restrictions on the early 1980s: Bathhouses close, the "safe sex" drum constantly being beaten, some afraid to have sex at all etc. SARS-CoV-2 is actually a much easier virus to beat than HIV. But oh the whining back then about the interference with the free and easy sex of the 1970s.

JManc Oct 9, 2020 10:22 PM

In all honesty, isn't Trump getting the best of the best as far as care? I hear he's 'high risk' because he's 74 and a little fluffy but he's actually in decent health and rigorous for a man of his age.

iheartthed Oct 9, 2020 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9069025)
Michigan seems to have been an example of whacky restriction run riot. But it isn't alone.

It's not. Michigan's rules are not as restrictive as New York's, and are probably similar to California's. But we all know why you brought up Michigan.

JManc Oct 9, 2020 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 9069084)
It's not. Michigan's rules are not as restrictive as New York's, and are probably similar to California's. But we all know why you brought up Michigan.

Probably because people showed up with guns at the MI state Capitol last spring and then tried overthrowing their governor recently so they made headlines where as Cuomo has/ had his daily covid talk show where he drones on about his kids. Though upstate is about to revolt.

iheartthed Oct 9, 2020 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9069088)
Probably because people showed up with guns at the MI state Capitol last spring and then tried overthrowing their governor recently so they made headlines where as Cuomo has/ had his daily covid talk show where he drones on about his kids. Though upstate is about to revolt.

Most people in Michigan actually approve of the way she's handled it. The media just focuses on the hillbilly morons.

Also, both Whitmer and Cuomo get much better reviews on how they've handled the crisis than the president has received.

JManc Oct 9, 2020 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 9069092)
Most people in Michigan actually approve of the way she's handled it. The media just focuses on the hillbilly morons.

Also, both Whitmer and Cuomo get much better reviews on how they've handled the crisis than the president has received.

Because semi-automatic rifles in government buildings and attempted coups are huge newsworthy events. Kinda overshadows everything else. Cuomo or Newsome haven't had to face anything like this. Michigan has always had a crazy right wing element going back to the 90's brought to light since the OKC bombing.

iheartthed Oct 9, 2020 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9069100)
Because semi-automatic rifles in government buildings and attempted coups are huge newsworthy events. Kinda overshadows everything else. Cuomo or Newsome haven't had to face anything like this. Michigan has always had a crazy right wing element going back to the 90's brought to light since the OKC bombing.

The only reason Newsom wasn't dealing with automatic rifles in the California capital is because Ronald Reagan had them outlawed.

iheartthed Oct 9, 2020 11:16 PM

Attempts at controlling the virus by federal agencies has consistently been undermined:

Quote:

White House Blocked C.D.C. From Requiring Masks on Public Transportation

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention drafted a sweeping order last month requiring all passengers and employees to wear masks on all forms of public and commercial transportation in the United States, but it was blocked by the White House, according to two federal health officials.

The order would have been the toughest federal mandate to date aimed at curbing the spread of the coronavirus, which continues to infect more than 40,000 Americans a day. The officials said that it was drafted under the agency’s “quarantine powers” and that it had the support of the secretary of health and human services, Alex M. Azar II, but the White House Coronavirus Task Force, led by Vice President Mike Pence, declined to even discuss it.

The two officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to comment, said the order would have required face coverings on airplanes, trains, buses and subways, and in transit hubs such as airports, train stations and bus depots.

A task force official said the decision to require masks should be left up to states and localities. The administration requires the task force to sign off on coronavirus-related policies.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/09/h...masks-cdc.html

Pedestrian Oct 10, 2020 1:55 AM

We have a gym room with exercise equipment in my condo. Today the HOA sent this out:

Quote:

The Board of Directors received the following information
from house counsel regarding the gym:
We have received the following Information from the
SF City Attorneys’ office regarding the guidelines that
specify “monitoring”.
Indoor gyms and fitness facilities that are unattended by
staff at any time during the hours of operation must remain
closed at this time. Exercising indoors in spaces shared or
accessible by others increases the risk of community
transmission of the virus that causes COVID-19. Indoor
gyms may operate if they meet strict conditions that
include daily screening of patrons, enhanced personal and
equipment sanitization measures, enhanced ventilation
requirements, and strict rules on face coverings,
distancing, and capacity limits. Indoor gyms and fitness
centers without full time staff cannot ensure the 10%
capacity limit or meet these other critical risk-reduction
standards, and must therefore remain closed at this time
.
They estimate it would cost $200,000 per year to hire "full time staff" to cover the hours the gym is normally available. Hence the gym is closed again p*ssing off a lot of people.

Previously

Quote:

In preparation for the gym opening a few weeks ago, the Board made modifications as specified by the San Francisco Department of Public Health which included adding signage, setting up the reservation system, moving equipment, adding air purifiers, installing a camera, preparing the waiver, and installing sanitizing stations.

In addition, the Board adopted temporary gym rules to meet the requirements of wearing masks, social distancing and users sanitizing equipment before and after use.

Based on the San Francisco Department of Public Health guidelines, the Board felt the initial modifications met the requirements. The Board believed the installation of an additional camera would fulfill the monitoring requirements.
But no go.

chris08876 Oct 10, 2020 2:00 AM

$200k!?

How big is your towers gym?

They could probally save a lot and just hire one guy to manage it all. I mean unless your condo tower has a gym the size of LA fitness that is part of your HOA benefits.

Pedestrian Oct 10, 2020 2:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 9069113)
The only reason Newsom wasn't dealing with automatic rifles in the California capital is because Ronald Reagan had them outlawed.

In as much as "automatic rifles" are outlawed by federal law, I assume you made the same mistake just about every gun critic makes when referring to SEMI-automatic rifles (the difference being whether you have to pull the trigger for each shot or the thing fires automatically like a machine gun).

chris08876 Oct 10, 2020 2:04 AM

COVID-19 Clusters in NYC: Protests Continue As New Shutdowns Begin | NBC New York Coronavirus Update

Video Link



Quote:

Non-essential businesses and some five dozen public schools shut down amid protest and confusion in the affected neighborhoods. Both Jewish and Catholic religious institutions have filed suit against the new regulations. News 4’s Gilma Avalos and Andrew Siff report.

Pedestrian Oct 10, 2020 2:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris08876 (Post 9069252)
$200k!?

How big is your towers gym?

They could probally save a lot and just hire one guy to manage it all. I mean unless your condo tower has a gym the size of LA fitness that is part of your HOA benefits.

That would be for 3 shifts, I assume, and the $200K would be for salary and benefits. SF law mandates health insurance, paid sick leave and leave to care for a sick friend or if you or your spouse has a baby (in which case a stand-in would have to be hired; and no, you can't refuse to hire someone because they are going to have a baby next month). I think we also offer a retirement plan. Most gym users like to use it after business hours. We have a lot of people here in the tech industry who work very odd hours so working out at 3 AM is not unheard of.

This is a socialist republic. Workers don't come cheap which is why we contract out for most services like security, janitorial, concierge and landscaping.

The room is not large but it has a lot of fancy equipment. We also have handball/squash courts, a sauna and dressing room but I don't know if the mandatory staff member could cover both the workout room and the rest.

mhays Oct 10, 2020 2:13 AM

My building's gym closed too. But luckily we have stairs...4.5 walks up 17 stories turns out to be a pretty good workout. I take the elevator down each time to save my knees.

Pedestrian Oct 10, 2020 2:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays (Post 9069261)
My building's gym closed too. But luckily we have stairs...4.5 walks up 17 stories turns out to be a pretty good workout. I take the elevator down each time to save my knees.

Our stairs are available only for emergency use and are alarmed. Since during COVID we have a policy of one resident (or family unit) in the elevator at a time, at busy times like last Saturday you sometimes have to wait while one elevator after another opens only to reveal another occupant. Last Saturday I got so frustrated I walked down the stairs to the street, doubtless causing the alarm to go off and driving the security guard on duty nuts. I'm not sure if there's a camera so he could see who the guilty party was (but I was masked! Haha!). We do have cameras all over the place.

But you can't walk up. The exterior door only opens from the inside. You are forced to take one elevator up to the residential lobby where the security guard sits, then take another the rest of the way to your floor.

JManc Oct 10, 2020 2:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9069253)
In as much as "automatic rifles" are outlawed by federal law, I assume you made the same mistake just about every gun critic makes when referring to SEMI-automatic rifles (the difference being whether you have to pull the trigger for each shot or the thing fires automatically like a machine gun).

Reagan banned machine guns produced after 1986 so one could could still own something made before then if they could afford it but are subject to all kinds of ATF background checks while the assault weapons' ban that AR-15's fell under expired in 2004 (under W). California and New York just haven't been fortunate to have their capitol buildings stormed by MEAL Team 6 with Bushmasters yet. The media has muddled the meaning of 'assault weapons' so I give most people a pass for not knowing the difference.

10023 Oct 10, 2020 2:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9068995)
I am torn between this and the urge to do the right thing on this one.

We tease 10023 a lot for being self-absorbed (and I often do it too!) but on this he - and you and others - do make valid points.

The “right thing” does not necessarily mean blindly accepting and following a made-up-on-the-spot set of rules created without democratic process by political leaders desperate to seem as if they are “doing something”.

Democrats blame Trump for the number of Covid cases which is ridiculous. They look disingenuous and childish, but that’s politics. The virus will do its thing, most people will get it, and some people will die. We knew this in February.

Let’s not destroy the economy and the financial futures of all of us who are not at risk from the virus (not to mention ruin years of our lives and make us deeply depressed) in a vain attempt at preventing nature from taking its course. We are pushing water uphill.

And by the way, if this ruins 2 years of life for everyone, that’s probably more than the average remaining life expectancy of people who would die from it. Not to mention that a year of life in one’s 20s, 30s or 40s is worth more than one in their 80s.

10023 Oct 10, 2020 2:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9069004)
I so enjoy reading the whining and crying over the terrible privation of COVID and imagining how this generation would have coped with, say, WW II or the Depression.

One difference is we kind of know when this will end: We WILL have vaccines and effective drugs by the end of the year although probably not enough to give them to everybody. That time may come 3 to 6 months later. A year from now, COVID limitations imposed by government will probably be over but I suspect it will take another year or two before a lot of people really feel comfortable with indoor dining or attending an indoor entertainment event, whether high culture, popular culture or sports. It will be allowed though and those of you who really feel deprived will probably be able to indulge all you want.

We may indeed have some residua of the type JManc implies. Some people have always wanted "their space" preserved and now more are likely too. Some people have never liked crowds and now more are likely to avoid them for a long time to come. There may be some benefits to them personally in that other diseases like colds and flu are transmitted much as COVID is and taking COVID style measures should reduce your chances of catching those as well.

This isn’t fucking World War 2. It’s a contagious disease marginally more dangerous than the flu.

They might create another Depression though. At the very least we are in for a decade of slow growth during my prime earning years as the economy and fiscal environment recovers from this.

The young are being fucked over completely to save the old. You should be thanking us until the day you die.

10023 Oct 10, 2020 2:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9069025)
The valid point is that government has too often been illogical and irrational on this one, sometimes cheered on by the "scientists" who have a narrow vision on the epidemiology of the virus and ignore the consequences, intended and unintended of efforts to control it.

For example, I question the point or value ocf curfews. Why is someone more at risk or dangerous at 11 PM than at 9:30. It depends what they are doing at that hour and most of the things they might do that are risky are themselves banned. If someone craves a midnight stroll, why not?

Michigan seems to have been an example of whacky restriction run riot. But it isn't alone.

I've long said if I were told I literally had to stay at home and couldn't go out, I would ignore such a Chinese-style policy. Between that and simple mask-wearing and reasonable "distancing" there is a lot to debate (argue over if you prefer). And I strongly oppose 10023's ideas about imposing some of the mandatory policies he objects to having applied to him to those more vulnerable, especially in the absence of any governmental help to avoid the risk of going out for necessary purposes (no one's going to do my shopping for me except me unless I pay maybe 50% more to have everything delivered which I can afford but many others can't).

It would be really easy and relatively cheap for government to pay for every old person to have everything they need delivered. That’s a red herring.

iheartthed Oct 10, 2020 3:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9069253)
In as much as "automatic rifles" are outlawed by federal law, I assume you made the same mistake just about every gun critic makes when referring to SEMI-automatic rifles (the difference being whether you have to pull the trigger for each shot or the thing fires automatically like a machine gun).

I know the difference. Ronald Reagan outlawed open carry in California. Automatic rifles were not illegal when he did so.

10023 Oct 10, 2020 5:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris08876 (Post 9069252)
$200k!?

How big is your towers gym?

They could probally save a lot and just hire one guy to manage it all. I mean unless your condo tower has a gym the size of LA fitness that is part of your HOA benefits.

Requiring staff is stupid. Just make it accessible with a keycard and a booking system that only allows X number of people to enter at a time. Easy and would cost them like a grand.

That’s what one of the hotels I stayed in this summer in Italy did, btw.

The North One Oct 10, 2020 6:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9069487)

The young are being fucked over completely to save the old. You should be thanking us until the day you die.

I didn't realize you were young, you usually talk like a baby boomer.

mhays Oct 10, 2020 6:54 PM

Solutions are so simple when you don't understand the problem or the complexity of your own idea!

craigs Oct 10, 2020 8:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9069271)
California and New York just haven't been fortunate to have their capitol buildings stormed by MEAL Team 6 with Bushmasters yet.

Not for lack of trying. Some 32 out of about 1,500 Covidiots were arrested back in May for trying to force their way through police lines and into the California Capitol. That was the infamous event where maskless trumpanzees were shouting directly into cops' faces, calling them 'traitors' for not allowing the building to be stormed and occupied.

I suspect part of the difference between here and, say, Michigan, is that Newsom deployed the state police in heavy riot gear and allowed them to forcibly hold the line because there's relatively little support among Californians for Michigan-style right-wing militia occupations, threats, criminal plots, etc.

iheartthed Oct 10, 2020 9:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigs (Post 9069753)
I suspect part of the difference between here and, say, Michigan, is that Newsom deployed the state police in heavy riot gear and allowed them to forcibly hold the line because there's relatively little support among Californians for Michigan-style right-wing militia occupations, threats, criminal plots, etc.

Yes, they could not legally deny them entry because the law explicitly allows firearms to be carried in the Michigan capitol building. That is the only reason these nutjobs were able to get the photo ops they did, and by extension, allowed an opportunity for the media to analyze these idiots to death as if they actually have a rational point.

10023 Oct 10, 2020 9:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays (Post 9069682)
Solutions are so simple when you don't understand the problem or the complexity of your own idea!

What complexity? Put a lock on the door accessed by a key card. The key card can only be activated for a time slot with a booking app. My gym in London and a hotel I stayed in (and surely countless others) are currently using this system.

mhays Oct 10, 2020 10:23 PM

For starters:

1. You can't count on users to clean things properly or leave well before the next user arrives, but gym managers in many locations are required to ensure compliance. I'd assume liability is involved. If so, there's no way around having staff continually cleaning and making sure the room is empty for a period before each next user.

2. The app, management interface, and card reader could easily cost more than $1,000, particularly with appointment-based permissions rather than blanket usability (staff time), plus the ongoing management that sort of thing inevitably requires. That's even assuming existing FOBs and residents accustomed to using them.

You could make the rules advisory, but then the risk-takers would take advantage, and that's why places with advisory rules often seeing cases spike back up...hence the firm rules.

Pedestrian Oct 10, 2020 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9069623)
Requiring staff is stupid. Just make it accessible with a keycard and a booking system that only allows X number of people to enter at a time. Easy and would cost them like a grand.

That’s what one of the hotels I stayed in this summer in Italy did, btw.

That's almost precisely what our HOA did--along with closed circuit cameras so the security staff could monitor it and removing some of the equipment to keep what remained "distanced" and the SF Health Department said it wasn't good enough. We had to have a live human there keeping watch . . . in the room.

the urban politician Oct 11, 2020 2:46 PM

Traffic is starting to pick up on my daily commute. Definitely people are going places more

Pedestrian Oct 12, 2020 2:16 AM

Quote:

Valley Pay Cuts Ignite Tech-Industry Covid-19 Tensions
By Katherine Bindley and Eliot Brown
Updated Oct. 11, 2020 1:52 pm ET

Tech workers fleeing the San Francisco Bay Area to work remotely amid the pandemic are facing a new reality: pay cuts.

Over the past several months, Covid-19 has shaken traditional notions of where employees can work. In Silicon Valley, which has a relatively high cost of living and an employee base with access to state-of-the-art remote-work tools, companies are devising plans for a future with decentralized staffs. In some cases, changes can include cutting salaries by 15% or more depending on where someone moves.

The nascent pay-cut movement stands to create tension between some of the most profitable companies in the world and skilled employees who enjoy high salaries.

Companies point out that changing pay based on the local cost of living is standard practice for many organizations, including the federal government—with decisions to raise or lower salaries related to housing costs and other factors. someone take a San Francisco salary to Wyoming could be considered unfair to present and future remote hires in cheaper cities who might receive a lower wage.

But Silicon Valley companies have spent years going beyond standard corporate norms to endear themselves to their workers. In an era where companies rain free food, massages and yoga studios on their software engineers, the cold rationality of geography-based pay risks alienating employees used to being courted.

Payments company Stripe Inc. has started offering employees leaving San Francisco, New York or Seattle a one-time bonus of $20,000 to relocate, but they would have to take a pay cut of as much as 10%. For employees at VMware Inc., a cloud software provider, moving from the Bay Area to Denver could mean a cut of as much as 18% . . . .

https://www.wsj.com/articles/silicon...d=hp_lead_pos2

Turns out working from home or in some other place won't be all gravy.

Steely Dan Oct 12, 2020 5:31 PM

Remember folks, this thread is only for discussion about how covid is affecting your city.

All other general covid jack-assery belongs in the CE toilet.

the urban politician Oct 12, 2020 6:32 PM

https://cdn.guff.com/site_0/media/33...66b0be8f89.jpg

10023 Oct 13, 2020 6:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9069858)
That's almost precisely what our HOA did--along with closed circuit cameras so the security staff could monitor it and removing some of the equipment to keep what remained "distanced" and the SF Health Department said it wasn't good enough. We had to have a live human there keeping watch . . . in the room.

Ridiculous nanny state overreach.

As far as I can tell there is no life in my city. I’m on the lookout for new speakeasies.

CaliNative Oct 13, 2020 9:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9069483)
The “right thing” does not necessarily mean blindly accepting and following a made-up-on-the-spot set of rules created without democratic process by political leaders desperate to seem as if they are “doing something”.

Democrats blame Trump for the number of Covid cases which is ridiculous. They look disingenuous and childish, but that’s politics. The virus will do its thing, most people will get it, and some people will die. We knew this in February.

Let’s not destroy the economy and the financial futures of all of us who are not at risk from the virus (not to mention ruin years of our lives and make us deeply depressed) in a vain attempt at preventing nature from taking its course. We are pushing water uphill.

And by the way, if this ruins 2 years of life for everyone, that’s probably more than the average remaining life expectancy of people who would die from it. Not to mention that a year of life in one’s 20s, 30s or 40s is worth more than one in their 80s.

^^^
You say..."a year of life in one's 20s, 30s or 40s is worth more than one in their 80s". I'd take one Einstein or Mandela over a thousand ignorant and self absorbed 20 somethings. Life is precious for all, including those in their last years, and wisdom does come with age and experience. You would condemn your parents and grandparents to sickness and possible death? Don't you know that the key to opening up the economy (until vaccines and widely available therapeutics are available) is stamping out the virus by social distancing, masks and contact tracing? It has worked where it has been tried. New Zealand is now practically virus free. The economy will be depressed as long as the virus is spreading like a wild fire. And by the way, some under 40s ARE at risk from the virus. Plenty have been sickened and some have died. The long term effects of this disease are still unknown. Letting the virus run wild in a misguided attempt to get "herd immunity" would be a disaster for people and the economy.

We are all in this together, young and old. If this disease mainly attacked the young, as the 1918 "Spanish" flu apparently did, I would be in favor of all measures to contain it. Saying the lives of some are worth more than others, as you appear to do, is a path to be avoided.

10023 Oct 13, 2020 4:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliNative (Post 9071394)
^^^
You say..."a year of life in one's 20s, 30s or 40s is worth more than one in their 80s". I'd take one Einstein or Mandela over a thousand ignorant and self absorbed 20 somethings. Life is precious for all, including those in their last years, and wisdom does come with age and experience. You would condemn your parents and grandparents to sickness and possible death? Don't you know that the key to opening up the economy (until vaccines and widely available therapeutics are available) is stamping out the virus by social distancing, masks and contact tracing? It has worked where it has been tried. New Zealand is now practically virus free. The economy will be depressed as long as the virus is spreading like a wild fire. And by the way, some under 40s ARE at risk from the virus. Plenty have been sickened and some have died. The long term effects of this disease are still unknown. Letting the virus run wild in a misguided attempt to get "herd immunity" would be a disaster for people and the economy.

We are all in this together, young and old. If this disease mainly attacked the young, as the 1918 "Spanish" flu apparently did, I would be in favor of all measures to contain it. Saying the lives of some are worth more than others, as you appear to do, is a path to be avoided.

I disagree with pretty much all of this.

I’m not making a judgement between an Einstein and a regular Joe, which is a completely different debate about whether exceptional people’s lives are worth more than average (or below average) ones.

That regular Joe’s 30s are still worth more than his 80s. This isn’t even that controversial - an actuary or Britain’s own National Health Service would implicitly say the same thing when they ascribe a monetary value to a life.

Beyond simple enjoyment and realisation of potential (harmed significantly by Covid interrupting the educations, careers and social development of younger people), old people are generally retired, and so their activity has less importance for the economy. They tend to live in larger homes, and so can more easily cope with “stay at home” orders. They are more likely to be homebodies anyway, frankly. And they are the ones at risk.

The measures you mention have NOT worked where they have been tried - countries in Europe that had incredibly strict lockdowns in the spring are currently in a second wave. Sweden pursued “herd immunity” (while advising the elderly and vulnerable to protect themselves, which they did) and is not suffering from a second wave today. Their approach has been validated. New Zealand is a special case and is likely to have huge outbreaks whenever they open their borders again to foreign travel. And you place far too much faith in a vaccine.

They should not be ruining 2 years of everyone’s life in order to save mostly people in nursing homes with in most cases not much more than that left. The average age of people dying from Covid is greater than average life expectancy!

someone123 Oct 13, 2020 7:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9071612)
They should not be ruining 2 years of everyone’s life in order to save mostly people in nursing homes with in most cases not much more than that left.

Here in Canada we already had outbreaks in something like 1/3 of all old folks' homes during the lockdown back around May.

I'd guess that outcomes in those places depend a lot more on the standard of care they provide than the overall prevalence in the population. This follows from the fact that the severity of an outbreak depends on transmission inside the home. There are known cases of care homes where workers tested positive and 0 residents got sick, then other cases where residents kept getting sick for many weeks. Whether the community prevalence is 0.1% or 10% the care homes need to keep the workers and residents from giving covid to each other if they're going to avoid deaths. Community-wide measures seem like a really inefficient way to reduce spread inside care homes.

mrnyc Oct 13, 2020 7:37 PM

great to see one of the nicest grocery store settings back up and running -- heinen's in downtown cleveland. :tup:


https://live.staticflickr.com/1752/4...2e2e5655_b.jpg

mrnyc Oct 13, 2020 7:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9071612)
I disagree with pretty much all of this.

I’m not making a judgement between an Einstein and a regular Joe, which is a completely different debate about whether exceptional people’s lives are worth more than average (or below average) ones.

That regular Joe’s 30s are still worth more than his 80s. This isn’t even that controversial - an actuary or Britain’s own National Health Service would implicitly say the same thing when they ascribe a monetary value to a life.

Beyond simple enjoyment and realisation of potential (harmed significantly by Covid interrupting the educations, careers and social development of younger people), old people are generally retired, and so their activity has less importance for the economy. They tend to live in larger homes, and so can more easily cope with “stay at home” orders. They are more likely to be homebodies anyway, frankly. And they are the ones at risk.

The measures you mention have NOT worked where they have been tried - countries in Europe that had incredibly strict lockdowns in the spring are currently in a second wave. Sweden pursued “herd immunity” (while advising the elderly and vulnerable to protect themselves, which they did) and is not suffering from a second wave today. Their approach has been validated. New Zealand is a special case and is likely to have huge outbreaks whenever they open their borders again to foreign travel. And you place far too much faith in a vaccine.

They should not be ruining 2 years of everyone’s life in order to save mostly people in nursing homes with in most cases not much more than that left. The average age of people dying from Covid is greater than average life expectancy!


becuase opening and closing for 2wks when rates get too high in certain neighborhoods and wearing a mask and washing your hands is ruining everyones life. :rolleyes:

Steely Dan Oct 13, 2020 8:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9071838)
great to see one of the nicest grocery store settings back up and running -- heinen's in downtown cleveland. :tup:

DAMN!

now that's a classy way to get your milk and eggs!



reminds a little bit of this walgreens in chicago's wicker park.

it's obviously a contemporary build-out of an old bank building:

https://www.airbnb.com/google_place_...lace_id=220819
source: https://www.airbnb.com/things-to-do/...nited%20States


they even saved and re-purposed the old bank vault down in the basement, a fun detail:

https://patch.com/img/cdn/users/3768....jpg?width=695
source: https://patch.com/illinois/bucktown-...min-vault-cafe


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