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-   -   How Is Covid-19 Impacting Life in Your City? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242036)

twister244 Jul 22, 2021 3:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin (Post 9346995)
May. And that's a very big may that doesn't really have any evidence or substantive research behind it at this point.

Exactly. We don't have any evidence that it will. Either we drag this out, or rip the band aid off.....

Vlajos Jul 22, 2021 3:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twister244 (Post 9346005)
Not sure about Mexico, but international travel is so fluid right now in terms of what's needed, not needed. Because we never got on the vaccine passport train at the federal level, there's no one-stop shop to prove your vaccinated. The exception of course is flashing your card.

In the UK, you can prove your vaccination through the NHS app, but only UK citizens can do that. In the EU, they just rolled out a vaccine passport. Right now, only EU citizens can sign up, but there's been talk that non-EU citizens might be able to sign up.

I think the best thing you can do is just book your tickets, and if things become too difficult, you can always back out and cancel. It's changing constantly though.

The white CDC vaxx card is accepted in Italy and other European countries. Show it and you're in. Still need a negative test to return to the US which is ridiculous.

iheartthed Jul 22, 2021 3:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlajos (Post 9347083)
The white CDC vaxx card is accepted in Italy and other European countries. Show it and you're in. Still need a negative test to return to the US which is ridiculous.

Yeah, I know people who entered Italy this summer by presenting the CDC card.

With the breakthrough cases popping up, don't expect the testing requirement to be lifted anytime soon for return flights to the U.S.

twister244 Jul 22, 2021 3:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlajos (Post 9347083)
The white CDC vaxx card is accepted in Italy and other European countries. Show it and you're in. Still need a negative test to return to the US which is ridiculous.

Has anyone used this for the UK to avoid their 10-day quarantine rule? Right now the only vaccine passport they accept is the NHS digitial passport, which you can't register for if you aren't a UK citizen.

10023 Jul 22, 2021 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twister244 (Post 9347125)
Has anyone used this for the UK to avoid their 10-day quarantine rule? Right now the only vaccine passport they accept is the NHS digitial passport, which you can't register for if you aren't a UK citizen.

The whole UK health system and Covid response is a shitshow, so it doesn’t surprise me that this would be an issue.

When I went to Spain earlier this month, I also showed my paper CDC vaccination card and not my NHS digital pass, which Spain apparently doesn’t accept.

Countries just need to stop being particular and accept whatever is reasonable proof of vaccination.

10023 Jul 22, 2021 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc (Post 9346982)
While I can agree in spirit, the problem with letting it kill off the stupid is that while it kills off the stupid, it's still mutating. That's the danger here, that the delta variant will mutate into something that can completely break through the vaccine.

Tail risk.

Camelback Jul 22, 2021 11:54 PM

.

the urban politician Jul 23, 2021 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9347691)
Tail risk.

What the hell does that mean?

JManc Jul 23, 2021 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9347764)
What the hell does that mean?

Statistical probability; e.g. a black swan event. In other words, the risk of Covid variants will completely breakthrough the vaccines is minimal. Not sure if I agree with that considering the amount of people not getting vaccinated and enabling variants to mutate.

https://static.seekingalpha.com/uplo...tributions.png

Pedestrian Jul 23, 2021 7:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9347785)
Statistical probability; e.g. a black swan event. In other words, the risk of Covid variants will completely breakthrough the vaccines is minimal. Not sure if I agree with that considering the amount of people not getting vaccinated and enabling variants to mutate.

First of all, each replication of the virus is an opportunity for a critical mutation. Second, in the billions of people worldwide who have or will get infected, in each of whom there can be billions of replications, there will be 10 to the ? (12th, 15th?) power chances for a critical mutation. And we don't even know what a critical mutation might be--the real issue is how different the mutated spike protein would have to be, either chemically or stereotypically, from the original protein to be unaffected by antibodies toward the original.

But given the number of chances for a critical mutation, calculations like "tail risk" mean almost nothing. A better analogy is the one about an infinite number of monkeys pounding on an infinite number of typewriters producing Shakespeare's plays or the Bible. The number of replications = critical mutation opportunities may not be infinite, but it's unimaginably huge and that means it's likely that eventually a breakthrough mutation will happen. That isn't disastrous: It will probably be fairly easy to produce a new vaccine that's effective against it but the issue will be how much testing and red tape governments put in front of the ability to start using a new vaccine quickly.

Pedestrian Jul 23, 2021 7:55 AM

Quote:

Bay Area counties urge employers to require universal COVID-19 vaccination policies
Chase DiFeliciantonio
July 22, 2021
Updated: July 22, 2021 6:48 p.m.

The health officers of Contra Costa, Santa Clara and San Francisco counties urged all employers to consider requiring employees to get vaccinated for the coronavirus Thursday as cases rapidly rise. Officials said almost all cases and hospitalizations were in unvaccinated populations.

A state workplace safety committee heard last week that virus cases have been increasing in workplaces across California, as the highly infectious delta variant continues to spread.

“Workers who are unvaccinated against COVID-19 pose a substantial health and financial risk to the workplace,” Dr. Chris Farnitano, Contra Costa County’s health officer, said in a statement. “Most importantly, workplace exposures have led to serious illnesses and deaths.”

The health officials said in a release that employers can play a critical role in increasing vaccination rates by requiring the shots as a condition of employment, something the federal government has said they can do with exceptions for health issues and religious beliefs.

“A universal vaccination policy may benefit businesses because the quarantine requirements are different for vaccinated and unvaccinated workers,” Dr. Susan Philip, San Francisco’s health officer, said in a statement. “Currently, an employee who is not vaccinated must quarantine for at least 10 days if exposed to someone who tested positive, whereas fully vaccinated workers do not need to quarantine unless they have symptoms” . . . .

https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/a...e-16332986.php

eschaton Jul 23, 2021 1:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9347979)
First of all, each replication of the virus is an opportunity for a critical mutation. Second, in the billions of people worldwide who have or will get infected, in each of whom there can be billions of replications, there will be 10 to the ? (12th, 15th?) power chances for a critical mutation. And we don't even know what a critical mutation might be--the real issue is how different the mutated spike protein would have to be, either chemically or stereotypically, from the original protein to be unaffected by antibodies toward the original.

But given the number of chances for a critical mutation, calculations like "tail risk" mean almost nothing. A better analogy is the one about an infinite number of monkeys pounding on an infinite number of typewriters producing Shakespeare's plays or the Bible. The number of replications = critical mutation opportunities may not be infinite, but it's unimaginably huge and that means it's likely that eventually a breakthrough mutation will happen. That isn't disastrous: It will probably be fairly easy to produce a new vaccine that's effective against it but the issue will be how much testing and red tape governments put in front of the ability to start using a new vaccine quickly.

While all of this is true, there is no particular reason for a more deadly variant to be selected for. Viruses are selected for infectiousness - the potentially deadly immune response neither helps nor hinders it generally speaking. This means that a variant like Delta which can infect the unvaccinated, but causes asymptomatic or mild cases, works good enough to continue widely spreading, and likely won't be crowded out by a strain with similar virulence but an easier time circumventing the vaccines.

the urban politician Jul 23, 2021 1:01 PM

Mandating the vaccine is really the best hope. Obviously we can’t grab people and force them to get shots, but making it so that life is very difficult without a vaccine should be a strategy.

Some thoughts for US States:

1. Mandate a vaccine card to enter drivers license renewal facilities
2. Heck, require a vaccine card to enter any State or Federal building or office
3. All schools, Universities, Colleges need to require vaccine for 12 and older
4. To get the die hard Trumpians, require proof of vaccination to renew hunting or fishing licenses, for commercial driving licenses (truckers, etc)
5. Proof of vaccination needed for all trade incense renewals (GC, plumbing, electrical, etc) as well as most other licenses that involve working with the public (medical, dental, dental hygienist, hairstyling, pharmaceutical, tattoo parlor, liquor, etc)

I realize these are a long shot and legally questionable, but we need to get creative with the vaccine hesitant fucktards

the urban politician Jul 23, 2021 1:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschaton (Post 9348047)
While all of this is true, there is no particular reason for a more deadly variant to be selected for. Viruses are selected for infectiousness - the potentially deadly immune response neither helps nor hinders it generally speaking. This means that a variant like Delta which can infect the unvaccinated, but causes asymptomatic or mild cases, works good enough to continue widely spreading, and likely won't be crowded out by a strain with similar virulence but an easier time circumventing the vaccines.

Exactly. Good luck convincing the general public or most of the people here of this obvious point. Most people are too caught up in this Sci-Fi-esque hysteria of “the deadly mutant is coming, run for your lives!” Fear is one of the most potent weapons out there.

10023 Jul 23, 2021 3:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9348048)
Mandating the vaccine is really the best hope. Obviously we can’t grab people and force them to get shots, but making it so that life is very difficult without a vaccine should be a strategy.

Some thoughts for US States:

1. Mandate a vaccine card to enter drivers license renewal facilities
2. Heck, require a vaccine card to enter any State or Federal building or office
3. All schools, Universities, Colleges need to require vaccine for 12 and older
4. To get the die hard Trumpians, require proof of vaccination to renew hunting or fishing licenses, for commercial driving licenses (truckers, etc)
5. Proof of vaccination needed for all trade incense renewals (GC, plumbing, electrical, etc) as well as most other licenses that involve working with the public (medical, dental, dental hygienist, hairstyling, pharmaceutical, tattoo parlor, liquor, etc)

I realize these are a long shot and legally questionable, but we need to get creative with the vaccine hesitant fucktards

I don’t even think we need to, or should, cross that particular rubicon.

- We have vaccines that are widely available and free
- The vaccines provide very strong protection against serious illness or death; 98% of hospital admissions in the US are now unvaccinated people
- The healthcare system is no longer under significant strain due to Covid
- Younger people were never in any meaningful danger from Covid
- It is extremely unlikely for the virus to mutate into a highly vaccine-resistant variant in the near term
- It is practically impossible to completely eliminate Covid globally through vaccination

All of this taken together means we’re done.

You offer people the vaccine, they can have it or take their chances. Vaccinated people aren’t actually at risk from infected people around them - that’s the point of the vaccines.

While a vaccine-resistant strain is theoretically possible, it’s very unlikely to just emerge all of a sudden. Perhaps with mutation on mutation on mutation, if we’re unlucky, but that would take time and the scientific/medical community will obviously be monitoring it and developing targeted boosters as necessary.

Further lockdowns should not be tolerated, this mask-wearing nonsense needs to end, and there is no justification for the step toward authoritarianism that vaccine mandates entail.

xzmattzx Jul 23, 2021 4:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9347980)
“Workers who are unvaccinated against COVID-19 pose a substantial health and financial risk to the workplace,” Dr. Chris Farnitano, Contra Costa County’s health officer, said in a statement. “Most importantly, workplace exposures have led to serious illnesses and deaths.”

https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/a...e-16332986.php

1. What if those workers are "essential", like so many people were in the spring and summer of 2020, before any vaccine?
2. The second sentence can be changed to justify never leaving the house: "Most importantly, workplace commutes have led to serious injuries and deaths." Now you have justified never driving to work.

10023 Jul 23, 2021 4:48 PM

^ Plus those serious illnesses and deaths took place pre- vaccines. If they take place now it’s only the unvaccinated individual that would suffer, and that’s their own damn fault.

iheartthed Jul 23, 2021 4:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9348048)
Mandating the vaccine is really the best hope. Obviously we can’t grab people and force them to get shots, but making it so that life is very difficult without a vaccine should be a strategy.

Some thoughts for US States:

1. Mandate a vaccine card to enter drivers license renewal facilities
2. Heck, require a vaccine card to enter any State or Federal building or office
3. All schools, Universities, Colleges need to require vaccine for 12 and older
4. To get the die hard Trumpians, require proof of vaccination to renew hunting or fishing licenses, for commercial driving licenses (truckers, etc)
5. Proof of vaccination needed for all trade incense renewals (GC, plumbing, electrical, etc) as well as most other licenses that involve working with the public (medical, dental, dental hygienist, hairstyling, pharmaceutical, tattoo parlor, liquor, etc)

I realize these are a long shot and legally questionable, but we need to get creative with the vaccine hesitant fucktards

Just having enough companies start to require vaccination as a condition of employment will be enough. We're getting close to that becoming commonplace.

TWAK Jul 23, 2021 4:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xzmattzx (Post 9348228)
1. What if those workers are "essential", like so many people were in the spring and summer of 2020, before any vaccine?

They put themselves at risk and should be rewarded with extra pay, unless COVID isn't a big deal. COVID must be a big deal in order to ask these kind of questions.
Quote:

2. The second sentence can be changed to justify never leaving the house: "Most importantly, workplace commutes have led to serious injuries and deaths." Now you have justified never driving to work.
The lockdowns saved a lot of these kind of deaths from happening more lockdowns? :D
As per the thread we lead CA in new cases I guess, so my county is adapting bay area rules. The masks are coming and I have a pack ready to go in my truck.
Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 9348263)
Just having enough companies start to require vaccination as a condition of employment will be enough. We're getting close to that becoming commonplace.

What if people in the trailer parks don't have a job? Asking for my area.

iheartthed Jul 23, 2021 5:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWAK (Post 9348270)
What if people in the trailer parks don't have a job? Asking for my area.

Great is the enemy of good. We really just need to get to good (+80% vaxxed). If we get to great (100%) then that's great, but that's probably not a realistic goal. But, whenever those people want to get a job they'll probably eventually be required to prove that they got vaccinated.

TWAK Jul 23, 2021 5:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 9348310)
Great is the enemy of good. We really just need to get to good (+80% vaxxed). If we get to great (100%) then that's great, but that's probably not a realistic goal. But, whenever those people want to get a job they'll probably eventually be required to prove that they got vaccinated.

What should the real herd immunity be, if 80% is good? I was under the impression that after 70% we are fully back to normal. My area just passed 50% and it seems everybody is firm with their vaccine position for now.

homebucket Jul 23, 2021 6:03 PM

80% is probably not a reasonable goal at this point, if we're talking about America as a whole. Sure, there might be some neighborhoods, cities, or even metro areas with 80%+ vaccination rates (even the high vaccine uptake Bay Area is still only at 77% fully vaccinated for ages 12+), but as you zoom out, CA is only at 63% fully vaccinated for ages 18+.

The US right now is only at 60% fully vaccinated for ages 18+ and 57% for ages 12+.

Like TWAK said, everybody is likely firm with their vaccine position right now, so I don't see how we'll ever get to 80%.

eschaton Jul 23, 2021 6:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWAK (Post 9348321)
What should the real herd immunity be, if 80% is good? I was under the impression that after 70% we are fully back to normal. My area just passed 50% and it seems everybody is firm with their vaccine position for now.

The R value of Delta is much, much higher than regular COVID. Each infected person infects 10 or more people - basically everyone they come into contact with who is unvaccinated plus some who were vaccinated as well, because they shed 1200 times more virus.

A higher R value means a much higher proportion of the general public needs to be immune/resistant (either due to prior infection or vaccines) before it burns itself out.

Pedestrian Jul 23, 2021 6:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschaton (Post 9348047)
While all of this is true, there is no particular reason for a more deadly variant to be selected for. Viruses are selected for infectiousness - the potentially deadly immune response neither helps nor hinders it generally speaking. This means that a variant like Delta which can infect the unvaccinated, but causes asymptomatic or mild cases, works good enough to continue widely spreading, and likely won't be crowded out by a strain with similar virulence but an easier time circumventing the vaccines.

"More" or "less deadly" has little to do with it. The ability to escape neutralization by the vaccines does. A strain which can escape neutralization would be far more infectious. The delta and lambda strains actually have that to a mild degree but eventually it seems likely strains with it to an even higher degree will randomly happen.

Pedestrian Jul 23, 2021 6:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by homebucket (Post 9348338)
80% is probably not a reasonable goal at this point, if we're talking about America as a whole. Sure, there might be some neighborhoods, cities, or even metro areas with 80%+ vaccination rates (even the high vaccine uptake Bay Area is still only at 77% fully vaccinated for ages 12+), but as you zoom out, CA is only at 63% fully vaccinated for ages 18+.

The US right now is only at 60% fully vaccinated for ages 18+ and 57% for ages 12+.

Like TWAK said, everybody is likely firm with their vaccine position right now, so I don't see how we'll ever get to 80%.

We are going to get to high degrees of immunity because most people who don't get vaccinated are going to get covid and with the infectiousness of delta that may happen quicker than many think.

The delta strain of SARS-CoV-2 is now probably more infectious that was the Spanish Flu. That burned itself out after 2 years and 2 waves. I suspect the current wave of covid could be the last in the developed world UNLESS a strain emerges that is substantially different immunologically though if that happens there's no telling if it is more deadly or less deadly. It could actually produce a milder illness--something humans could just live with.

dave8721 Jul 23, 2021 6:22 PM

Effects of businesses downsizing their space and going to hybrid work from home schedules continues to be felt. I wonder how permanent it will be?
https://therealdeal.com/miami/2021/0...ession-levels/
Quote:

Miami office vacancy rates reach Great Recession levels

Office vacancy rates in Miami-Dade County are hitting highs not seen since the Great Recession, according to a pair of recent market reports.

A June report by the Commercial Industrial Association of South Florida, or CIASF, found that the vacancy rate for Class A office space jumped above 20 percent in the first quarter, a height not seen since the last building boom of 2008-2009 that coincided with the financial crisis.

eschaton Jul 23, 2021 6:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9348348)
"More" or "less deadly" has little to do with it. The ability to escape neutralization by the vaccines does. A strain which can escape neutralization would be far more infectious. The delta and lambda strains actually have that to a mild degree but eventually it seems likely strains with it to an even higher degree will randomly happen.

Most unvaccinated people globally are in areas where the vast majority of people are still unvaccinated - meaning there is limited utility for the virus to mutate in such a way to circumvent vaccines...yet.

the urban politician Jul 23, 2021 7:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9348348)
"More" or "less deadly" has little to do with it.

^ And this is where you repeatedly and, mind-numbingly, just fail to grasp what others are saying.

Being "deadly" has EVERYTHING to do with it. I don't get how this idea keeps sailing way over your head. If catching COVID (for vaccinated people) does not cause any meaningful death rate above, say, common cold or Flu or RSV, then there is nothing more to care about.

But I'm sure you still don't get it, because you are being willfully obstinate about this particular issue.

the urban politician Jul 23, 2021 7:16 PM

An editorial that I wholeheartedly agree with
 
July 23, 2021
Put away the COVID-shot carrots. It's time for some sticks.

Quote:

Lottery tickets and amusement park passes have only gotten us so far. To reach herd immunity against COVID-19 and rescue the economy from another downturn, employers must mandate vaccines.
CRAIN'S EDITORIAL BOARD

Governments may not be able to require people to get vaccinated, but it’s beginning to look like employers can. And it’s in the business community’s interest to do so.

Another surge in COVID-19 cases will do widespread damage to an economy that’s only just recovering from the worst phases of the pandemic. With the highly transmissible Delta variant now circulating widely and other variants emerging, COVID case counts, hospitalizations and deaths are moving in the wrong direction nationwide, particularly in regions where vaccination rates are stubbornly low.

The only way to avoid a financial, social and, frankly, emotionally devastating return to lockdown is to get the maximum number of people possible immunized. Vaccine resisters may think they are putting no one but themselves at risk, but they are in fact walking variant factories, and even if they’re skeptical of the guidance coming from doctors and scientists, they should be able to trust the evidence before their own eyes: More than 162 million people in this country have received coronavirus vaccines that were in development well before the COVID-19 virus emerged. Those people are pretty much able to live their lives now without fear of being hospitalized or killed by the virus.

The virus now is almost exclusively killing people who haven’t been vaccinated. As Crain’s Stephanie Goldberg reported July 22, the Chicago Department of Public Health has begun releasing the rates of infections, hospitalizations and deaths among residents based on vaccination status. The figures show that as of that writing, no COVID-related deaths had been reported among the vaccinated population in July, and more than 95 percent of COVID hospitalizations and deaths in Chicago were among unvaccinated residents.

Here in Chicago, only 51.5 percent of residents are fully vaccinated; statewide, that number rests at 50.1 percent. That's a better level than many areas of the country, but still far short of the 70 percent threshold that's widely considered to be the goal of public health officials seeking herd immunity. The city and the state have tried every form of incentive to get people vaccinated, from handing out amusement park tickets to offering to vaccinate people in their homes, and yet vaccine distribution has essentially flatlined.

As case counts rise nationwide, Los Angeles has reinstituted mask mandates, a path no major metropolitan area should want to go down now that we’ve tasted the freedom of breathing fresh air without hindrance. The good news is, we have the tools at our disposal to avoid L.A.’s fate. We have safe and effective vaccines.

The time for enticing vaccine refuseniks with lottery tickets and Little Dipper rides at Great America should be over. Of course, there are people with medically defensible reasons to take a pass on the jab. For everyone else, the excuses are starting to wear a little thin, and their hesitancy threatens to tank the economy again. In New York, Mayor Bill de Blasio is calling on private employers to impose vaccine mandates. Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot can and should do the same here.

For the sake of our shared economic well-being—not to mention the well-being of our beleaguered health care workers—Chicago's business leaders must declare they’re on the side of science and require employees returning to the office to get these lifesaving vaccines.
https://www.chicagobusiness.com/opin...me-some-sticks

twister244 Jul 23, 2021 7:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave8721 (Post 9348364)
Effects of businesses downsizing their space and going to hybrid work from home schedules continues to be felt. I wonder how permanent it will be?
https://therealdeal.com/miami/2021/0...ession-levels/

It's definitely hard to tell where things head from here. My prediction is less mass leasing of major space by smaller companies, with a move towards the use of co-working spaces. Maybe bigger companies with money keep their signature spaces (the Chases of the world). I suspect more and more people though will want to be in an office environment, but not necessarily cubicles with co-workers.

I keep advocating my model I am following where I go into WeWorks to work. I am around people, there's socialization, but they aren't my co workers. I can see a future where people come in a couple days, pow-wow in conference rooms, or in spaces for a couple days, then work from home the rest of the week.

Then again, we will see .... I could be completely off in my predictions.

10023 Jul 23, 2021 7:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9348424)
July 23, 2021
Put away the COVID-shot carrots. It's time for some sticks.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/opin...me-some-sticks

Disagree.

We aren’t going to eliminate Covid, which would be the only real purpose of universal vaccination. It’s not polio. Vaccinated people protected and unvaccinated people (most of whom will be fine) are not. So what.

eschaton Jul 23, 2021 7:31 PM

It's worth noting even if we could miraculously get high vaccine uptake tomorrow, it would take an additional 6 weeks or so until those vaccinated today became protected - and another 2 weeks for it to actually register in national numbers.

In contrast, some easing back into social distancing by the non-vaccinated would slow down the growth of case counts almost immediately (like, within 2 weeks).

iheartthed Jul 23, 2021 7:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschaton (Post 9348443)
In contrast, some easing back into social distancing by the non-vaccinated would slow down the growth of case counts almost immediately (like, within 2 weeks).

The mask guidance / mandate was never lifted for the unvaccinated. The guidance has always been that only vaccinated people were protected enough to go without masks. I'm not sure that reimposing a blanket mask mandate actually fixes the issue.

JManc Jul 23, 2021 7:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9348434)
Disagree.

We aren’t going to eliminate Covid, which would be the only real purpose of universal vaccination. It’s not polio. Vaccinated people protected and unvaccinated people (most of whom will be fine) are not. So what.

We aren't going to eliminate Covid because the extent of politicization and non compliance. When polio hit, everyone just got vaccinated. Those who thought Jonas Salk was injecting vacuum tubes into their bodies had no voice.

Pedestrian Jul 23, 2021 8:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9348420)
^ And this is where you repeatedly and, mind-numbingly, just fail to grasp what others are saying.

Being "deadly" has EVERYTHING to do with it. I don't get how this idea keeps sailing way over your head. If catching COVID (for vaccinated people) does not cause any meaningful death rate above, say, common cold or Flu or RSV, then there is nothing more to care about.

But I'm sure you still don't get it, because you are being willfully obstinate about this particular issue.

No, you are being befuddled.

I am talking about the virus being deadly, not the disease and I am responding to a point made by someone else. The issue was about viral mutations not covid. You are just setting up a straw man in this comment because the discussion seems to be beyond you (which I find astounding but true).

Pedestrian Jul 23, 2021 8:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9348474)
We aren't going to eliminate Covid because the extent of politicization and non compliance. When polio hit, everyone just got vaccinated. Those who thought Jonas Salk was injecting vacuum tubes into their bodies had no voice.

Covid is likely to eliminate itself if we don't. There will be more death and disease that way, but I suspect it will happen.

Pedestrian Jul 23, 2021 8:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9348434)
Disagree.

We aren’t going to eliminate Covid, which would be the only real purpose of universal vaccination. It’s not polio. Vaccinated people protected and unvaccinated people (most of whom will be fine) are not. So what.

The degree to which people who've had covid are "fine" in the long run is not known at this point.

Quote:

As Vaccines Do Their Work, Focus Moves to Long Covid
By Denise Roland
July 23, 2021 7:00 am ET

As vaccines blunt the threat of severe illness and death from Covid-19, millions of people remain at risk of developing an array of less serious but potentially debilitating long-term symptoms of the disease that scientists call long Covid.

Many of the most vulnerable are among younger unvaccinated people who are unprotected against the rapidly spreading Delta variant of the coronavirus, now responsible for more than 80% of America’s growing caseload.

Long Covid—a term referring to symptoms that linger for weeks or months beyond infection—affects between 10% and 30% of people who catch the virus, including those with mild or asymptomatic infections, according to experts. In some cases, symptoms persist for more than a year.

“Even if it’s not as striking as people dying, you ignore it at your peril,” said Danny Altmann, professor of immunology at Imperial College London. “In terms of healthcare burden or healthcare cost, we’re on track for this being as big a problem to us as rheumatoid arthritis, the biggest autoimmune disease in the world” . . . .

“Long Covid is real,” said Priya Duggal, professor of epidemiology at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. “Now we have a whole group of individuals who have survived Covid who are going on into a chronic [long-term] state that will likely be with us for a really long time.”

The scale of the issue has spurred governments to pour large sums into researching long Covid. The National Institutes of Health has committed $1.15 billion over four years for investigating the condition, while its U.K. counterpart has so far provided nearly £40 million, the equivalent of $54 million, to fund research projects investigating causes, diagnostic methods, and possible treatments.

Long Covid is associated with a bewildering array of possible symptoms; a recent survey of people with confirmed or suspected long Covid by researchers at University College London identified more than 200, spanning visual hallucinations, heart palpitations and memory loss.

Still, certain symptoms crop up repeatedly. The majority of people with long Covid report fatigue as the dominant symptom alongside muscle aches, difficulty sleeping and shortness of breath, according to a large study by researchers at Imperial College London. Another, smaller, cluster of patients reported predominantly respiratory symptoms, including shortness of breath and chest pain or tightness. Other studies have identified cognitive issues, or “brain fog,” as another common symptom.

Although severe infection is more likely to lead to long Covid, large numbers of people who had mild cases have also suffered from persistent symptoms. The Imperial study, which surveyed a random sample of more than half a million people from across England, found that around a quarter of the 21,454 people who had suffered a mild infection reported at least one symptom lasting 12 weeks or more. Those who had suffered severe infection had even higher odds of going on to experience at least one persistent symptom, around half. The study, published on the MedRxiv preprint server, hasn’t yet been peer reviewed and so is preliminary.

Long Covid has raised alarm bells for its tendency to strike the young in a way that severe illness and death haven’t. The Imperial study found that among those aged 18 to 24, about 30% of those who had knowingly caught Covid-19 reported at least one symptom lasting 12 weeks or longer . . . .

Researchers suspect that long Covid likely comprises several overlapping conditions, with different causes, and several large studies are under way to try to pin some of those down. Among the leading theories are that the virus triggers some kind of autoimmune condition, that it causes lasting physical damage to various organs, and that the virus lingers in the body long after infection.

There is no proven treatment for long Covid, although researchers in the U.K. are embarking on clinical trials to establish whether some widely available anti-inflammatory drugs such as aspirin, gout treatment colchicine and antihistamines could help. Meanwhile, hospitals are establishing dedicated clinics to help people cope with their symptoms . . . .
https://www.wsj.com/articles/as-vacc...id-11627038001

The symptoms could be auto-immune as this article suggests but we know covid is associated with pathologic blood clotting and these syptoms sound to me an awful lot like they could be the result of scattered micro-thrombi or emboli.

the urban politician Jul 23, 2021 8:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9348495)
The degree to which people who've had covid are "fine" in the long run is not known at this point.

^ So obviously, assume the worst case scenario, right Howard?

How's basement life? :haha:

Pedestrian Jul 23, 2021 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9348512)
^ So obviously, assume the worst case scenario, right Howard?

How's basement life? :haha:

You're obsessed and simply don't know what you are talking about. Also, you never post fact any more--just your own opinion which is unsupported by fact.

10023 Jul 23, 2021 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9348474)
We aren't going to eliminate Covid because the extent of politicization and non compliance. When polio hit, everyone just got vaccinated. Those who thought Jonas Salk was injecting vacuum tubes into their bodies had no voice.

No, we aren’t going to eliminate Covid because it’s an easily transmissible and not very deadly respiratory virus. Polio is spread by fecal-mouth contact. You don’t get it because someone on the same bus coughs. Better hygiene and clean water had as much to do with it as vaccination.

And it wouldn’t matter how much political alignment and compliance existed in the US, it would still be present around the world, which is more globalised and interconnected.

There is very little vaccine resistance in the U.K., relative to the US or even France, and it won’t be eliminated here either.

Pedestrian Jul 23, 2021 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9348664)
No, we aren’t going to eliminate Covid because it’s an easily transmissible and not very deadly respiratory virus. Polio is spread by fecal-mouth contact. You don’t get it because someone on the same bus coughs. Better hygiene and clean water had as much to do with it as vaccination.

And it wouldn’t matter how much political alignment and compliance existed in the US, it would still be present around the world, which is more globalised and interconnected.

There is very little vaccine resistance in the U.K., relative to the US or even France, and it won’t be eliminated here either.

The water did not suddenly get cleaner in 1955 but polio almost disappeared in developed countries.

Centropolis Jul 23, 2021 11:45 PM

the SW Missouri Delta varient hotspot thats been on the news is spreading NE, StL City and County instituting mask mandates.

Pedestrian Jul 24, 2021 1:39 AM

They're b-a-a-a-c-k!

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/ser...090670/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/ser...090664/enhance

10023 Jul 24, 2021 9:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9348717)
The water did not suddenly get cleaner in 1955 but polio almost disappeared in developed countries.

But it was never as widespread before that. Eliminating Covid through vaccination is like eliminating influenza through vaccination. Not going to happen.

Covid is most analogous to a bad flu. It’s nothing like polio.

CaliNative Jul 24, 2021 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9348797)

^^^
They may be back but where are the riders? Used to be so crowded people would be hanging off the sides.

the urban politician Jul 24, 2021 1:09 PM

^ They re all working from home.

That’s the irony of San Francisco’s role of being the premier tech center. A victim of its own success, tech made it possible for all of the overpaid & socially awkward dorks that once commuted to their jobs to now fulfill their lifelong dream of no longer having to interact with people.

They can now eat Cheetos on their couch and play with their computers while getting paid.

Meanwhile the city and commercial landlords sit there wondering, “Now what the fuck are we gonna do?”

pip Jul 24, 2021 1:43 PM

But remote is a great lifestyle. One of the highlights last summer working from home was when I had an appointment for a regular checkup with my primary care physician. Before the appointment I made him get on Zoom - the thing cool people use, and on one monitor I worked and the other I demanded and watched him wipe down his office with Clorox wipes. Sometimes I had to point out spots he missed. Once I was satisfied I went the appointment. After my appointment I made him write an email to me thanking me for my business, of course this was before I paid him. Paying that bill is still up in the air as I push that can down the road as long as I can. I walked out of his office laughing and thinking that idiot has to wear a mask at work all day and go into an office. Once home I went back to my couch to work.

the urban politician Jul 24, 2021 3:20 PM

^ :haha:

iheartthed Jul 24, 2021 3:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliNative (Post 9348923)
^^^
They may be back but where are the riders? Used to be so crowded people would be hanging off the sides.

Looks like they're testing it. Also, aren't the cable cars mostly just a tourist trap now?

10023 Jul 24, 2021 3:47 PM

Sounds like some Australians are finally growing a pair?

https://apple.news/A7ZZI4U1KTz2N54s0dJKnXQ


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