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M II A II R II K Oct 28, 2011 3:43 PM

Why the 7 to Secaucus Won’t Work


Read More: http://pedestrianobservations.wordpr...cus-wont-work/

Quote:

Bloomberg’s expressed support for the now $10-billion proposal to send the subway to Secaucus is generating buzz and speculation about the ability to secure funds. Missing from this discussion is any concern for whether more people would actually transfer at Secaucus than do today. The instinct is to say that this provides a better connection to most of Midtown, but the transfer penalty literature suggests otherwise.

- One important thing to note, writes Reinhard Clever, is that for commuter rail, downtown-side transfers are much more inconvenient than suburb-side transfers. Suburban commuters will drive to a park-and-ride, but balk at a transfer at the city end. Clever’s example is Toronto, where commuter rail riders tend not to transfer to the subway at Union Station but only take transit to jobs that can be reached from the station by walking. This problem is what doomed the Austin Red Line. For all its flaws, ARC offered a one-seat ride from the Erie lines to Penn Station.

- Another thing to note is that suburban commuters routinely change trains at Jamaica today, but not at Secaucus. I’m not aware of a study on the transfer experience, but I am fairly certain that the difference is that at Jamaica the transfers are timed and cross-platform whereas at Secaucus they are not. Transferring at Secaucus today involves going up steps, passing through faregates, and going down steps, with no guarantee of a connecting train. The literature is unanimous that passengers will spend more than one minute of in-vehicle time to avoid a minute of transfer or waiting time.

-----

Here are better candidate projects for adding a pair of tracks under the Hudson:

1. ARC Alt G. Despite the ARC cancellation, it reminds the best option.

2. Hoboken-Lower Manhattan. This doesn’t give Erie commuters a one-seat ride to Penn Station, but compensates with a one-seat ride to Lower Manhattan, and a two-seat ride from the Morris and Essex Lines to Lower Manhattan. The Manhattan terminal should not be more than a two-track stub-end with short tail tracks and the potential for a connection to the LIRR Atlantic Division. With about 50 meters of tail tracks and a platform with many escalators, the Chuo Line turns nearly 30 tph on two tracks at Tokyo Station. It’s an outlier, but given the extreme cost of building larger stations in Manhattan, the response should not be “They’re different, our special circumstances won’t let this happen,” but “how can we have what they have?”. Modern signaling and punctuality are critical, but, as the Germans say, organization before electronics before concrete.

2b. Jersey City-Lower Manhattan. The same as option 2, but with somewhat less tunneling in Manhattan and a lot more tunneling in Jersey. The main advantage is that new underground stations at Journal Square and Exchange Place would serve more jobs and residents than a station in Hoboken. It may be cheaper due to reduced Manhattan tunneling, or more expensive due to less maneuvering room coming into Lower Manhattan. It also forces the Manhattan platform to be east-west rather than north-south for a far-future cross-platform transfer with Grand Central and Staten Island.

3. The L to Secaucus, or to Hoboken. This has all the problems of the 7 to Secaucus plus more – 14th Street is at best a secondary CBD – but it conveniently replaces the L’s current low-throughput terminal with another. Ideally the L should only be extended a few hundred meters west, to the Meatpacking District, but if such an extension has large fixed costs, the incremental cost of extending the L all the way could be low enough to be justified by the benefits of a Secaucus extension, which are low but nonzero.

.....

Crawford Oct 28, 2011 5:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M II A II R II K (Post 5459882)
Why the 7 to Secaucus Won’t Work

Read More: http://pedestrianobservations.wordpr...cus-wont-work/

This really is a silly article, and seems to be written by someone who doesn't understand commuting patterns in the NYC area.

No, a subway tunnel to/from Lower Manhattan wouldn't make more sense. There are already two subway lines heading from NJ to Lower Manhattan. It's called PATH.

And Midtown has more than three times the employment and visitor base. Obviously it makes more sense to bring commuters to Midtown.

As for Jamaica Station vs. Secaucus Station, folks transfer at Jamaica because they have to! Many trains terminate at Jamaica, and many trips require a transfer. Not a single train terminates at Secaucus, so obviously there are fewer transfers.

And Jamaica runs an underground LIRR line to downtown Brooklyn (Atlantic Avenue terminal), so there's a second major endpoint destination. There is only one major endpoint option from Secaucus (yes, there's Hoboken terminal, but it's a somewhat smaller jobs hub).

k1052 Oct 28, 2011 7:32 PM

It would also make an extension to EWR (and perhaps Staten Island) possible. A one seat ride from EWR right into Times Square would be a tourism dream for the city.

Crawford Oct 28, 2011 8:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 5460236)
It would also make an extension to EWR (and perhaps Staten Island) possible. A one seat ride from EWR right into Times Square would be a tourism dream for the city.

There already is a one-seat ride from EWR to Penn Station.

I suppose it would be nice to have a one-seat to Times Square too, but I doubt it would be a priority. There are plenty of bigger needs, IMO.

k1052 Oct 28, 2011 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 5460298)
There already is a one-seat ride from EWR to Penn Station.

I suppose it would be nice to have a one-seat to Times Square too, but I doubt it would be a priority. There are plenty of bigger needs, IMO.

As is the issue now, most people (business and tourism) want to go into the arc north and east of Penn, in the 40s through low 50s. It would also create a redundant link into Manhattan in case something were to happen to the north river tunnels.

Roadcruiser1 Oct 28, 2011 11:12 PM

The 7 Line uses 42nd Street so it isn't as redundant as you think. It would link Jersey residents to Grand Central Terminal in a way that would be beneficial to them.

J. Will Oct 29, 2011 2:18 AM

Quote:

Clever’s example is Toronto, where commuter rail riders tend not to transfer to the subway at Union Station but only take transit to jobs that can be reached from the station by walking.
This is what the paper says:



Quote:

Go Transit commuter
rail in Toronto provides a good example for Hutchinson’s findings. In spite of being directly connected to
one of the most efficient subway systems in North America, Go’s ridership potential is limited to the
number of work locations within an approximately 700 m radius around the main railroad station. Most
of the literature points to the fact that the ridership already drops off dramatically beyond 400 m. This
phenomenon is generally referred to as the “Quarter Mile Rule.”

Let's look at WHY that is. If you live North of downtown and work North of about Dundas Street, it is probably faster for you to take the subway to work. So people aren't avoid the commuter train because it imposes a transfer, but just because the subway is faster. Same thing if you live along the Bloor-Danforth line. Toronto's subway runs at about the same average speed as NYC's express trains. If one lives east or west of the city along the lakeshore, they are going to take the GO Train to Union Station and transfer to the subway to reach areas north of Dundas. I really doubt these people are actually "avoiding" the GO Train, though if there is evidence to the contrary I'd like to see it.

Toronto also has higher subway fares than NYC.

mrnyc Oct 29, 2011 3:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 5460298)
There already is a one-seat ride from EWR to Penn Station.

I suppose it would be nice to have a one-seat to Times Square too, but I doubt it would be a priority. There are plenty of bigger needs, IMO.

well, i still say the 2nd avenue subway is a much bigger need for the majority of us cityfolk than the lirr eastside access project, the 7 train extension or the new fulton station. so people's transit upgrade priorities are pretty varied depending on where you are sitting!

Nexis4Jersey Oct 29, 2011 1:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 5460081)
This really is a silly article, and seems to be written by someone who doesn't understand commuting patterns in the NYC area.

No, a subway tunnel to/from Lower Manhattan wouldn't make more sense. There are already two subway lines heading from NJ to Lower Manhattan. It's called PATH.

And Midtown has more than three times the employment and visitor base. Obviously it makes more sense to bring commuters to Midtown.

As for Jamaica Station vs. Secaucus Station, folks transfer at Jamaica because they have to! Many trains terminate at Jamaica, and many trips require a transfer. Not a single train terminates at Secaucus, so obviously there are fewer transfers.

And Jamaica runs an underground LIRR line to downtown Brooklyn (Atlantic Avenue terminal), so there's a second major endpoint destination. There is only one major endpoint option from Secaucus (yes, there's Hoboken terminal, but it's a somewhat smaller jobs hub).

He does , he makes some great points. I think we need to enhance and expand our regional systems and improve there connectivity over expanding the subway which really doesn't add any capacity.... The Tunnels and regional network still become over stressed , we need more Regional / Intercity Capacity. I'm really starting to get pissed with politicians in this region cancelling one project to push another which costs just as much but benefits a tiny amount of the region. This really benefits the Real Estate developers and not the people of this region , same with the West side 7 train extension. Now Complete the Second Ave Subway , overhauling the system and fixing the bottlenecks and then after the Amtrak Gateway project which costs 10 billion $$ is completed , come back and revisit the 7 train extension. Its not like you can develop in Secaucus , its mostly protected wetlands , building the JCT and a few other things took decades to happen due to Environmental groups which due have a valid point about protecting the Meadowlands. The MTA , The PA , NJT are all opposed to this and I doubt that will change , and people are really starting to get pissed about paying higher tolls for Band Aid projects....

NYC4Life Nov 7, 2011 5:30 PM

WCBS TV - NEW YORK

Man Dangles Off Tappan Zee Bridge With Large ‘Rockland Executive Legislature Coverup Retaliation’ Sign
November 7, 2011 12:23 PM

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/11/...ridge-incident

http://cbsnewyork.files.wordpress.co...sign.jpg?w=300

Quote:

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) - A bizarre incident is taking place on the Tappan Zee bridge.

An unidentified man is dangling from the middle of the span, sitting on top of a large, flapping sign. The man and the sign are dangling at the end of a long rope ladder. The man appears to be harnessed to the rope ladder.

The sign says “Rockland Executive Legislature Coverup Retaliation.”

The man is dangling roughly halfway between the water and the bridge.

The incident apparently began at around 10:45 a.m. Two lanes of the bridge are closed, and traffic is heavy in the area.

Check Traffic & Transit

Several boats are idling in the water below. Above, several people have responded to the site where the rope ladder is hooked to the bridge.



©2011 CBS Local Media, a division of CBS Radio Inc. All rights reserved.

donoteat Nov 8, 2011 12:50 AM

Terrifying. Is the Tappan Zee Bridge even capable of supporting that kind of weight?

NYC4Life Nov 9, 2011 6:23 PM

News 12 The Bronx

MTA eyes new Bronx Metro-North stations

http://www.news12.com/articleDetail....news_type=news

Quote:

(11/08/11) THE BRONX - The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) is working on preliminary plans to expand Metro-North service to the east side of The Bronx.

Bronx Borough President Ruben Diaz, Jr., MTA officials and community leaders met yesterday to discuss the plan, which they say could become a reality by 2016.

The proposal could give residents more access to the railroad, with stations possibly coming to Co-op City, Parkchester, Hunts Point and Morris Park.


The Bronx Borough President's Office says since the tracks are already in place, they would only have to build stations. Some local politicians say it's a win-win situation.

"They don't need any variances and they project they don't need to interrupt any existing businesses," says Democratic state Assemblyman Marcos Crespo.

Community leaders say the only drawback is that the preliminary plans don't call for any new parking garages or lots, which may add more traffic to the area.

MTA board member and former Bronx Borough President Fernando Ferrer estimates that the project will cost about $300 million, with a third of the sum coming from Connecticut and the rest from New York.



©2011 News12.com & Rainbow Media

NYC4Life Nov 9, 2011 6:26 PM

NY1

10:36 AM
MTA Doing Away With "Please Be Patient" Announcements
By: NY1 News

http://www.ny1.com/content/news_beat...-announcements

Quote:

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority is scrapping subway announcements asking for patience when trains are delayed.

New automated announcements thank riders for their patience while apologizing for the inconvenience.

They're replacing announcements about delays that end with the phrase "please be patient."

Riders have complained about the old announcements since they first began running in the late 1990s.

The MTA says some riders intrerpreted the old announcements as an admonishment.



© 1999-2011 NY1 News and Time Warner Cable Inc. All Rights Reserved.

dchan Nov 9, 2011 7:16 PM

^ My problem with the automated announcements is that they tell the riders nothing about what's going on. The announcements keep saying that there's "train traffic ahead of us", but when you've been sitting in a non-moving train between stations for 10 minutes, you clearly know that the announcement is complete bullshit and a catch-all reason to use for any sort of delay.

Tell us that there's a sick passenger in the next station, that the train needs to wait for some track workers to get out of the way, that the dispatcher is slowing down the express train in order to allow the local train to catch up at the next station to allow transfers, or anything that's more specific than "train traffic ahead of us". Just don't bullshit the passengers with fake excuses for why the train has suddenly stopped moving (unless, of course, the delay is actually due to real train traffic).

mrnyc Nov 11, 2011 2:18 AM

^ thats not a problem anymore. the automated announcements come on and then the conductor comes on and explains. there was a concerted effort by the mta to do that a year or so ago and they have been doing a good job. much improved over the past.

nito Nov 11, 2011 2:16 PM

New York Commuter Rail Map

This is something that I've been working on over the past few months. It is essentially a map illustrating the service frequencies along various commuter/intercity lines into Central New York (Manhattan) during the morning rush-hour (defined as 08:00 - 08:59).


http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6010/...818aa6d8_b.jpg


Due to the complexity and limitations of Google Map, you will need to copy and paste the following url into the Google Map search bar to 'see' the entire map and avoid having to shift between the cumbersome map pages.


http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?vps...03e4fdf771def1


I also suggest switching to the terrain view to see the map in full clarity. Currently working on one for Toronto and London (http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6132/...962d0129_b.jpg)

KVNBKLYN Nov 11, 2011 6:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nito (Post 5476744)


Due to the complexity and limitations of Google Map, you will need to copy and paste the following url into the Google Map search bar to 'see' the entire map and avoid having to shift between the cumbersome map pages.

Neither the link nor copying-and-pasting the url work for me.

NYC4Life Nov 13, 2011 6:38 AM

WABC-TV NEW YORK

All PATH trains temporarily suspended Sat. night
Updated at 11:25 PM today

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...fic&id=8429936

Quote:

NEW YORK (WABC) -- Due to a signal problem, all PATH trains were temporarily suspended Saturday night.

An electrical fire in a closet at Journal Square knocked out power to the signals, forcing service to be suspended at around 8 p.m.

The fire was put out and there were no injuries.

Port Authority is working to get power back but they are not sure when that will happen.
NJ Transit is cross honoring tickets.

For more information, visit the Port Authority website.

PATH ALERTS: CLICK HERE FOR PATH ALERTS



(Copyright ©2011 WABC-TV/DT. All Rights Reserved.)

manchester united Nov 13, 2011 8:20 PM

http://www.ny1.com/content/news_beat...ts-for-repairs

Therefore some stations will be closed for some weeknights every three months. Bad news for the city that never sleeps !!!

NYC4Life Nov 14, 2011 1:39 AM

NY1

UPDATED 4:48 PM
State Ban On Smoking At Outdoor Commuter Rail Platforms Takes Effect
By: NY1 News

http://www.ny1.com/content/news_beat...s-takes-effect

Quote:

A new state law that bans smoking on the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's outdoor commuter rail platforms, including Metro-North and Long Island Rail Road stations, took effect Sunday.

Smokers now face a $50 fine for breaking the rule.

MTA police officers will give out warnings before they start writing tickets.

The agency said the ban promotes a healthier, cleaner environment and reduces the chance of a track fire.

As it is only a statewide rule, Metro-North platforms in Connecticut will still allow smoking.

Rail passengers who spoke with NY1 at the Jamaica LIRR Station in Queens on Sunday had mixed reactions to the new law.

"It's good for the kids and it's probably for people who don't like people that smoke," said one rider.

"They should an area where you're able to smoke, and then they should have an area where you can't smoke, you know what I'm saying?" said another. "So the people who do smoke, they could enjoy their cigarette or their cigar or whatever, and smoke in their area where you're allowed to smoke, and the people who don't, if they got a problem with it, they just go to the other side."

Smoking is already prohibited on outdoor New York City subway platforms.



© 1999-2011 NY1 News and Time Warner Cable Inc. All Rights Reserved.


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