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-   -   How Is Covid-19 Impacting Life in Your City? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242036)

JManc May 22, 2021 3:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9288382)
I added the current stats: 10% non-compliance for measles which, believe it or not, is MORE contagious than COVID and the vaccine for which is about equally effective. But we only see important measles outbreaks in local communities where non-compliance is substantially higher. This is the best-known example of herd immunity. And I think as the political dimension fades we can get COVID vaccines to the 90+/-% range, especially if, as I've read the next generation of vaccines are pills or nasal sprays.

But we're NEVER going to get anywhere near 10% non-compliance with covid and 0-12 aren't even factored in. I suspect there will be a bigger pushback at least in the near term with parents hesitant to give a vaccine that is not fully approved to their young child. Measles is largely a non-issue due to the trust and high compliance among children. I suspect it will more like the flu vaccines which there is a high degree of non-compliance. I didn't even get vaccinated until last year.

Pedestrian May 22, 2021 3:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV (Post 9288390)

You don't have to go to New Zealand:

Quote:

Why Measles Hits So Hard Within N.Y. Orthodox Jewish Community
By Michelle Andrews
MARCH 11, 2019

The Rockland County, N.Y., woman hadn’t told her obstetrician that she had a fever and rash, two key signs of a measles infection. A member of the Orthodox Jewish community there, she went into premature labor at 34 weeks, possibly as a result of the infection. Her baby was born with measles and spent his first 10 days in the neonatal intensive care unit . . . .

The measles case Ruppert described is just one of many. New York state’s outbreaks, which began last October, have gone on longer and infected more people than any other current outbreak nationwide. More than 275 cases of the disease have been confirmed statewide through the first week of March, primarily in the New York City borough of Brooklyn and in Rockland County towns northwest of the city.

That total makes up about half of the 578 confirmed cases in 11 states that were reported nationwide by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention from January 2018 through the end of last month. Washington state, with 76 cases by the end of February, has the second-highest number of cases.

Measles cases in New York have been concentrated among children from Orthodox Jewish families, many of whom attend religious schools where vaccination rates may have been below the 95 percent threshold considered necessary to maintain immunity. The outbreaks began when unvaccinated travelers returned from Israel, where an outbreak persists, and spread the disease here.
https://khn.org/news/why-measles-hit...ish-community/

Measles is considered about the most transmissible respiratory virus and yet, in spite of 10% non-compliance which is "below the 95 percent threshold considered necessary to maintain immunity" outbreaks usually make the news as these did and also a recent one in the Northwest US.

I want to see COVID outbreaks treated similarly and I think we can get there.

Pedestrian May 22, 2021 3:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9288392)
But we're NEVER going to get anywhere near 10% non-compliance with covid

Since COVID is less contagious, we don't need to. 70% was the figure Tony Fauci guessed last year. I think the SF Bay Area can reach 85% when a vaccine is approved for all ages and for this virus that'll probably do it.

If Texas can't get to that figure, Californians traveling there will just have to be sure they've had their shots and perhaps there will be economic consequences.

JManc May 22, 2021 4:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9288399)
Since COVID is less contagious, we don't need to. 70% was the figure Tony Fauci guessed last year. I think the SF Bay Area can reach 85% when a vaccine is approved for all ages and for this virus that'll probably do it.

If Texas can't get to that figure, Californians traveling there will just have to be sure they've had their shots and perhaps there will be economic consequences.

What about the reverse; California and the Bay Area are major destinations from visitors all over the place including places with low compliance rates.

SIGSEGV May 22, 2021 4:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9288399)
Since COVID is less contagious, we don't need to. 70% was the figure Tony Fauci guessed last year. I think the SF Bay Area can reach 85% when a vaccine is approved for all ages and for this virus that'll probably do it.

If Texas can't get to that figure, Californians traveling there will just have to be sure they've had their shots and perhaps there will be economic consequences.

I'd like to see legislation explicitly allowing employers to require vaccination for at least new employees/promotions. I've heard anecdotally that a lot of places are scared to require that of employees for legal reasons, real or imagined. UChicago is requiring vaccination of students, but not of staff or faculty, for example (though I suspect vaccination rates among at least the academic staff are near 100%.). It seems like they're likely figuring it out with the lawyers...
Quote:

The University is evaluating whether the COVID-19 vaccine also will be required for all academic appointees, postdoctoral researchers, and staff, and we will share an update soon.
They're finally lifting the campus outdoor mask mandate though:

Quote:

In recognition of lower risks outdoors and Chicago Department of Public Health guidance, the University has eliminated the masking mandate for people who are outdoors on campus grounds, including when others are within 6 feet – however, face coverings may still be required at certain outdoor events and programming. We expect many members of our community to continue wearing masks outdoors for various reasons, and request all to be conscientious of others.
I suspect by the time I'm back from Greenland in late July, I may even be allowed to use my office even when my officemate is around :-p.

JManc May 22, 2021 4:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV (Post 9288406)
I'd like to see legislation explicitly allowing employers to require vaccination for at least new employees/promotions. I've heard anecdotally that a lot of places are scared to require that of employees for legal reasons, real or imagined. UChicago is requiring vaccination of students, but not of staff or faculty, for example (though I suspect vaccination rates among at least the academic staff are near 100%.). It seems like they're likely figuring it out with the lawyers...

All the more reason for the vaccines to be fully approved by the FDA, not merely authorized for emergency use and I would imagine there would be legal hurdles mandating then vaccine until then.

10023 May 22, 2021 8:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kngkyle (Post 9288339)
Ontario is really opening up now.

Tomorrow they are removing the ban on golfing, tennis, and other outdoor recreational activities with less than 5 people.

In mid-June they are planning to allow 15% retail capacity and outdoor seating for up to 4 people per table at restaurants.

Then in July they will allow 6 people per table for outdoor dining, 25% retail capacity, and up to 5 people for indoor gatherings.

Indoor dining might be allowed to some extent by fall.

I'm not joking.

The Canadians are more like the Brits than Americans. They will take whatever their government gives them and say thank you.

10023 May 22, 2021 8:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9288399)
Since COVID is less contagious, we don't need to. 70% was the figure Tony Fauci guessed last year. I think the SF Bay Area can reach 85% when a vaccine is approved for all ages and for this virus that'll probably do it.

If Texas can't get to that figure, Californians traveling there will just have to be sure they've had their shots and perhaps there will be economic consequences.

There will be enough Californians who don’t give a shit. Trust me.

10023 May 22, 2021 8:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9288371)
I totally disagree. Maybe you are too young to remember when just about every kid had measles, chicken pox and mumps, viral diseases that are at least as contagious as COVID. Do you know anybody who's had any of them? Outbreaks of measles and mumps, anyway, make the news and significant outbreaks make the national news. That's because effective vaccines were developed for all. And the fact that there are always some people who don't get vaccinated is what "herd immunity" is about: Eliminating viral transmission to the extent that even the unvaccinated are protected (about 7% of kids don't get the polio vaccine and 10% don't get the measles vaccine and yet a kid getting either is rare).

I cannot believe that a supposed medical professional would attempt to use measles or chicken pox as examples here. The more appropriate precedent is influenza, where easy access to vaccination has clearly not eliminated the disease.

Not only do flu and Covid supposedly spread more easily (measles is also airborne, but as I understand it not totally aerosol - i.e., it spreads through coughs and sneezes or mucus, but not just breathing in the same indoor space), but with very few exceptions, a person can only be infected once.

That creates a massively different potential for universal vaccination. Inoculate every kid before they start kindergarten, and they have lifelong immunity to these viruses. That’s a pretty easy path to herd immunity.

Something that isn’t a serious disease for most and requires annual booster shots for adults, possibly against various different strains (like flu or Covid) will never allow for “universal” vaccination.

But keep dreaming.

chris08876 May 22, 2021 11:58 AM

Traffic has been atrocious lately. That's the one thing I miss from Mother Covid... the lack of traffic.

Innsertnamehere May 22, 2021 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9288478)
The Canadians are more like the Brits than Americans. They will take whatever their government gives them and say thank you.

The reopening plan for Ontario is getting a pretty rough ride right now, people generally aren’t too happy about it.

I can tell you that most people are already ignoring it, especially those with first shots.

Certain things like retail and restaurants can’t be ignored though. But gathering limits? Basically nobody is paying attention to the government regulation at this point.

I suspect it’s timeline will shift up. Canada will be done first shots in the next few weeks and will be done most second shots by the end of July.

iheartthed May 22, 2021 1:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kngkyle (Post 9288339)
Ontario is really opening up now.

Tomorrow they are removing the ban on golfing, tennis, and other outdoor recreational activities with less than 5 people.

In mid-June they are planning to allow 15% retail capacity and outdoor seating for up to 4 people per table at restaurants.

Then in July they will allow 6 people per table for outdoor dining, 25% retail capacity, and up to 5 people for indoor gatherings.

Indoor dining might be allowed to some extent by fall.

I'm not joking.

And people are whining about restrictions in the U.S., lol.

The North One May 22, 2021 3:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kngkyle (Post 9288339)
Ontario is really opening up now.

Tomorrow they are removing the ban on golfing, tennis, and other outdoor recreational activities with less than 5 people.

In mid-June they are planning to allow 15% retail capacity and outdoor seating for up to 4 people per table at restaurants.

Then in July they will allow 6 people per table for outdoor dining, 25% retail capacity, and up to 5 people for indoor gatherings.

Indoor dining might be allowed to some extent by fall.

I'm not joking.

Why is it so extreme in Ontario? Were cases surging there? Seems we're pretty much at the end of this pandemic and Ontario is going full lock-down like it's still march 2020.

chris08876 May 22, 2021 3:51 PM

It's only going to hurt them in the long run. Add to the time that it will take for a full economic recovery. Which sucks for those folks...

MonkeyRonin May 22, 2021 4:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The North One (Post 9288630)
Why is it so extreme in Ontario? Were cases surging there? Seems we're pretty much at the end of this pandemic and Ontario is going full lock-down like it's still march 2020.


We're just really trying to hit that "longest lockdown in the world" record.

We've basically been in one form or another of shutdown since like October or November of 2020. I can't even remember anymore.

dktshb May 22, 2021 4:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV (Post 9288390)

A friend who stayed with me in Tahoe in the summer of 2019 ended up having the mumps. Even though he had been vaccinated his medication made him immuno compromised. I figured I was okay because I was vaccinated but my Dr. told me to get the MMR vaccine again since I had it over 45 years ago and felt it may not protect me anymore from mumps measles or rubella. He told me the vaccine is not good for a lifetime so I am glad I got it again. Especially because we can thank anti vaxxers for making it a potential issue for all again.

dktshb May 22, 2021 5:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9288399)
Since COVID is less contagious, we don't need to. 70% was the figure Tony Fauci guessed last year. I think the SF Bay Area can reach 85% when a vaccine is approved for all ages and for this virus that'll probably do it.

If Texas can't get to that figure, Californians traveling there will just have to be sure they've had their shots and perhaps there will be economic consequences.

The only Californians traveling to TX are probably moving there. I do not think there will be economic consequences.

10023 May 22, 2021 5:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 9288546)
And people are whining about restrictions in the U.S., lol.

They are right to. Canada seems to be on another level, and one which could never be attempted in a country with widespread private ownership of firearms.

iheartthed May 22, 2021 5:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9288708)
They are right to. Canada seems to be on another level, and one which could never be attempted in a country with widespread private ownership of firearms.

A rebellion. Yeah, sure. lol.

dktshb May 22, 2021 5:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9288708)
They are right to. Canada seems to be on another level, and one which could never be attempted in a country with widespread private ownership of firearms.

and widespread stupidity about a magnitude of things that seems to be rewarded elevated and celebrated.

Pedestrian May 22, 2021 6:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV (Post 9288406)
I'd like to see legislation explicitly allowing employers to require vaccination for at least new employees/promotions. I've heard anecdotally that a lot of places are scared to require that of employees for legal reasons, real or imagined. UChicago is requiring vaccination of students, but not of staff or faculty, for example (though I suspect vaccination rates among at least the academic staff are near 100%.). It seems like they're likely figuring it out with the lawyers...

It's certainly legal. Many medical institutions have required staff to get flu shots though they've always had "escape clauses" for medical and religious exemptions. And, of course, they have the justification that it's necessary for the safety of patients including those with respiratory and other health issues.

Currently, as you probably know, Delta Airlines, Las Vegas casinos and cruise ships are requiring new hires to get vaccinated or, for some, be subjected to frequent (weekly of more often) covid testing.

So I think even under current law it's possible to make workplaces safe if employers have the guts to do it. The "either (vaccine)/or (frequent testing)" option seems to avoid objections about compelling what is ultimately a medical procedure for those who really object and I suspect after a few weeks they'll get tired of that and just get a shot (especially if it's only one).

Pedestrian May 22, 2021 6:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dktshb (Post 9288698)
A friend who stayed with me in Tahoe in the summer of 2019 ended up having the mumps. Even though he had been vaccinated his medication made him immuno compromised. I figured I was okay because I was vaccinated but my Dr. told me to get the MMR vaccine again since I had it over 45 years ago and felt it may not protect me anymore from mumps measles or rubella. He told me the vaccine is not good for a lifetime so I am glad I got it again. Especially because we can thank anti vaxxers for making it a potential issue for all again.

The diseases I referred to all still exist. Only smallpox has been totally eliminated and unfortunately certain nations still insist on keeping specimens of that virus in labs so it's still potentially a bioweapon. But the others, like mumps or measles reappear mainly as sporadic outbreaks that can be controlled by standard public health means such as contact tracing and isolation. Mumps breaks out every so often on college campuses and military barracks although military recruits are now given MMR in "boot camp" I'm fairly sure (I once worked at a military base that functioned as a Navy boot camp but that was before the MMR shot--mainly we saw lots of rubella ("German" measles)).

But this scenario is what I hope we can achieve for covid: Almost no regularly occurring cases in spite or sporadic outbreaks in non-vaccinated people, especially in locations where anti-vax sentiment is strong.

First it takes enough people to get vaccinated to suppress the virus to the point where many places have no active cases, if not all the time then for days at a time. Then we get serious about isolating the cases that do occur.

someone123 May 22, 2021 8:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9288708)
They are right to. Canada seems to be on another level, and one which could never be attempted in a country with widespread private ownership of firearms.

I'm not necessarily against restrictions per se and I think it makes sense to try to keep cases and hospitalizations low while finishing up vaccination but it feels like the goalposts keep subtly shifting. First we worried about deaths then hospitalizations and increasingly people are talking about keeping things locked down because a future variant might be worse. I think we will have a considerable irrational push to prolong the restrictions even if cases continue to plummet and people who want to be vaccinated can be vaccinated.

Nova Scotia closed down schools in late April and they're now going to be closed province-wide for the remaining weeks in the school year. They reported approximately 64 covid cases per million and positivity is around 1% or less. They have had in the ballpark of a dozen deaths due to covid during the last year. They produced a scary list of schools with outbreaks but their requirement to declare an outbreak in a school is that 1 person there tests positive.

In Ontario they were doing a bunch of bizarre stuff like taping over outdoor frisbee golf baskets in April 2021. They also closed down schools but daycares were open, i.e. they reduced the amount of space available for the children.

someone123 May 22, 2021 8:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity (Post 9288819)
My reluctance to get vaccinated for covid has nothing to do with my belief in vaccines (particularly since the covid vaccine is extremely effective) and everything to do with numerous people I know personally having had negative reactions to the vaccine yet I don't know one person that's gotten covid and even if I do get covid the odds are I would only experience mild to moderate symptoms so i'll take my chances on covid particularly since where I live on Vancouver Island 99.5% of people here have remained covid-free throughout this pandemic

You could consider just getting dose #1 (I am not a doctor, talk to your doctor, etc ). It's quite effective (sounds like around 85% peak to prevent testing positive and even higher than that for severe illness) and nobody really knows how quickly the immunity drops off. Most people don't seem to get severe side effects from that first dose. Mostly a sore arm for 1-2 days.

The AZ/J&J concerns were real, backed by data, and if you're somewhere on Vancouver Island that risk could be significant in size relative to the risk of dying of covid. But in Canada we mostly have Pfizer now and a bit of Moderna given to people these days.

Pedestrian May 22, 2021 9:55 PM

The west coast "Broadway" season is back:

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/ser...720293/enhance

MonkeyRonin May 22, 2021 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 9288856)
I'm not necessarily against restrictions per se and I think it makes sense to try to keep cases and hospitalizations low while finishing up vaccination but it feels like the goalposts keep subtly shifting. First we worried about deaths then hospitalizations and increasingly people are talking about keeping things locked down because a future variant might be worse. I think we will have a considerable irrational push to prolong the restrictions even if cases continue to plummet and people who want to be vaccinated can be vaccinated.

Nova Scotia closed down schools in late April and they're now going to be closed province-wide for the remaining weeks in the school year. They reported approximately 64 covid cases per million and positivity is around 1% or less. They have had in the ballpark of a dozen deaths due to covid during the last year. They produced a scary list of schools with outbreaks but their requirement to declare an outbreak in a school is that 1 person there tests positive.

In Ontario they were doing a bunch of bizarre stuff like taping over outdoor frisbee golf baskets in April 2021. They also closed down schools but daycares were open, i.e. they reduced the amount of space available for the children.


It's interesting to compare USA to Canada in 2020 vs 2021. Last year we were doing better by pretty much any metric, while also being able to be generally more open and "normal" than most US states (with the obvious exception of some of the southern states that never really shut down in any capacity). While the gap has narrowed somewhat since then, particularly with vaccination; restrictions have nonetheless only become stricter in Canada - even though our death rate has also declined since the first wave. Versus the US which has now pretty much done away with all restrictions.

Pedestrian May 22, 2021 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity (Post 9288819)
My reluctance to get vaccinated for covid has nothing to do with my belief in vaccines (particularly since the covid vaccine is extremely effective) and everything to do with numerous people I know personally having had negative reactions to the vaccine yet I don't know one person that's gotten covid and even if I do get covid the odds are I would only experience mild to moderate symptoms so i'll take my chances on covid particularly since where I live on Vancouver Island 99.5% of people here have remained covid-free throughout this pandemic

You are in an isolated location in another country so I guess I have no reason to care how you approach this, but I have been vaccinated and had so very little reaction to the shots that in total 2 regular aspirin fixed me right up (I only needed those on the second dose of Pfizer--almost everybody finds the second dose causes a little more achy/fluish feeling than the first). I know lots of people who have been vaccinated and not one regrets it at all.

I too don't know anybody who has gotten COVID but I do know the US has had almost 600,000 "excess deaths" in 2020 and Canada has had almost 16,000. And some of those were not the usual demographic to which you refer.

Bottom line: It sounds like you are not willing to put up with 24 hours of aches in order to really conquer this disease (and save a lot of lives in other "demographics") and I find that sad and shameful. I just wish there weren't as many people like you as there are. As far as Vancouver Island being spared, if a lot of people there think as you do and remain unvaccinated, that is very likely not to remain the case forever unless you seal yourselves off. It's a place that used to be a great place to visit in summer and inevitably a tourist or two will bring the virus with him or her. It will come to pockets of susceptible around the world.

Pedestrian May 22, 2021 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin (Post 9288931)
It's interesting to compare USA to Canada in 2020 vs 2021. Last year we were doing better by pretty much any metric, while also being able to be generally more open and "normal" than most US states (with the obvious exception of some of the southern states that never really shut down in any capacity). While the gap has narrowed somewhat since then, particularly with vaccination; restrictions have nonetheless only become stricter in Canada - even though our death rate has also declined since the first wave. Versus the US which has now pretty much done away with all restrictions.

Canada bought 5 times as much vaccine as they should have needed and then couldn't get any of it delivered as ordered. I think that shocked a lot of people in and out of government.

Pedestrian May 22, 2021 11:08 PM

I am very happy they are doing this. I think it may make a real difference in a "demographic" that may not feel themselves at risk but is pretty public spirited:

Quote:

Hot vax summer? Dating apps encourage vaccination
Priya Elan
Sat 22 May 2021 08.16 EDT

Dating Apps are attempting to make getting vaccinations “sexy” in a new partnership with the White House.

Tinder, Hinge and OkCupid are amongst the dating apps that are part of the initiative, which will allow users to see if their potential dates are either fully vaccinated, not yet vaccinated or ‘prefer not to disclose’.

In exchange the apps are giving users premium features. Hinge will offer a free ‘Rose’ to users who set their vaccination status, Tinder will give you a free ‘Super Like’. Both of these ‘premium features’ will tell a potential date that they’re interested, so increasing the chances of matching. According to research from Tinder, you are more likely to get a date if you have been vaccinated: more than half of their Gen Z users says they’re only interested in going on a date with a person who is vaccinated. However, a different study found that Americans under 35 are least likely to say they will get vaccinated.

Tinder will also be adding some other elements to its app, such as a vaccine location tool and links to official information about the vaccination from the World Health Organisation. Other dating sites taking part in the initiative include Hinge, Plenty of Fish, BLK and Chispa . . . .
https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/...ge-vaccination

Quote:

Dating Apps Are Making It Easier To Swipe Right For A Match Who's Vaccinated
May 21, 20213:06 PM ET
JASON BRESLOW

The nation's largest dating apps are hoping to make it easier for vaccinated singles to find one another, the White House announced Friday, part of the push to meet the Biden administration's goal of getting 70% of adults at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine by July 4.

The range of new features will allow users to be able to filter potential matches by their vaccination status, and also gain free access to premium features such as "boosts," "super likes" and "super swipes."

"Social distancing and dating were always a bit of a challenging combination," Andy Slavitt, a White House senior adviser on the COVID-19 response, told reporters on Friday. "So today, dating sites like Bumble, Tinder, Hinge, Match, OKCupid, BLK, Chispa, Plenty of Fish and Badoo are announcing a series of features to encourage vaccinations and help people meet people who have that universally attractive quality: they've been vaccinated against COVID-19."

The White House is hoping the new initiative will speed up vaccinations, after a decline in the pace of the rollout over the past few weeks. More than 60% of Americans 18 and older have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine, and nearly 130 million Americans are now fully vaccinated. But the pace of vaccinations has been falling, with the average daily pace of vaccinations down nearly 50% from a peak in April.

Dating apps could offer one path toward turning that trend around. The sites cater to more than 50 million users in the U.S., Slavitt said, noting that research from OKCupid has found people who are vaccinated or plan to get vaccinated receive 14% more matches than those who don't.

The types of new offerings will vary from site to site. Match, for example, will allow members to add a new "Vaccinated" badge to their profiles and give them a free "boost" to make their profile appear higher up in search results. BLK, the largest dating app for Black singles, will give also offer vaccinated users a boost if they add a "Vaxified" badge to their profiles. Tinder, the dating app with the most U.S. users, will also have vaccinated badges, as well as a new "Vaccine Center" to help connect users with nearby vaccination sites.
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/21/99917...-whos-vaccinat

Minato Ku May 22, 2021 11:12 PM

Last Wednesday marked the reopening of non-essential stores (among essential store that stayed open were : groceries, book stores, electronic, video games stores...). Museum have reopened as well as cinema and theatres but only with a limited gauge of 35% capacity.

Also there was a curfew at 7 p.m, now it's 9 p.m. Still quite early for Paris where people work until 6 or 7pm but much better than before.

Central Paris, this afternoon.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...3e5bbc00_c.jpg
Rue de Rivoli, 1er arrondissement by Minato ku, sur Flickr

Bars and restaurants have reopened this week (only take out was allowed until) but indoor seating is still banned.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...0a5477d2_c.jpg
Cours Saint Emilion, 12e arrondissement by Minato ku, sur Flickr

I wonder if this really count as outdoor. It's technically not inside the restaurant but...
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...73008b85_c.jpg
Passage Saint Vivant, 12e arrondissement by Minato ku, sur Flickr

Unfortunately, the weather isn't great these day for outdoor dining, it rains quite often.

TWAK May 23, 2021 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 9288874)
You could consider just getting dose #1 (I am not a doctor, talk to your doctor, etc ). It's quite effective (sounds like around 85% peak to prevent testing positive and even higher than that for severe illness) and nobody really knows how quickly the immunity drops off. Most people don't seem to get severe side effects from that first dose. Mostly a sore arm for 1-2 days.

The AZ/J&J concerns were real, backed by data, and if you're somewhere on Vancouver Island that risk could be significant in size relative to the risk of dying of covid. But in Canada we mostly have Pfizer now and a bit of Moderna given to people these days.

Everybody I know who had harsh reactions reactions, previously had COVID. I am pretty sure I used a source as well either in here or the CE, and it was within four hours from what I remember. No issues for me, but I normally get the flu shot and even people I know who don't get the flu shot handled the Pfizer well. It's also people having a reaction of some sort that we have discussed in here as well, where individuals pass out.
An individual is anti-vaxx if they have a wide variety of excuses, and if they still got the shot I could applaud them for facing their fears. Legit excuses are for people like Quakers and stuff.

dc_denizen May 23, 2021 1:47 AM

You are more likely to get a deadly reaction from aspirin than the covid vaccines

xzmattzx May 23, 2021 2:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kngkyle (Post 9288339)
Ontario is really opening up now.

Tomorrow they are removing the ban on golfing, tennis, and other outdoor recreational activities with less than 5 people.

In mid-June they are planning to allow 15% retail capacity and outdoor seating for up to 4 people per table at restaurants.

Then in July they will allow 6 people per table for outdoor dining, 25% retail capacity, and up to 5 people for indoor gatherings.

Indoor dining might be allowed to some extent by fall.

I'm not joking.

Good lord. Will Ontario be back to normal before 2023? Maybe by 2025? Did someone mention to the Ontario government that the coronavirus will always be with us now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere (Post 9288513)
The reopening plan for Ontario is getting a pretty rough ride right now, people generally aren’t too happy about it.

I can tell you that most people are already ignoring it, especially those with first shots.

Certain things like retail and restaurants can’t be ignored though. But gathering limits? Basically nobody is paying attention to the government regulation at this point.

I suspect it’s timeline will shift up. Canada will be done first shots in the next few weeks and will be done most second shots by the end of July.

This is a good instance of governments needing to be pragmatic and conceding some elements of closures and lockdowns, even if it means that some people will die. If regulations are too strict, people will simply ignore them. We saw it in several US states, and it sounds like it's going on in Ontario now too. And if conceding lives for convenience sounds cruel, we do it every day with other things. Will Ontario lower the speed limit on the 400-level highways to 20 kph to save more lives on the roads?

JManc May 23, 2021 5:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9288968)
You are in an isolated location in another country so I guess I have no reason to care how you approach this, but I have been vaccinated and had so very little reaction to the shots that in total 2 regular aspirin fixed me right up (I only needed those on the second dose of Pfizer--almost everybody finds the second dose causes a little more achy/fluish feeling than the first). I know lots of people who have been vaccinated and not one regrets it at all.

I too don't know anybody who has gotten COVID but I do know the US has had almost 600,000 "excess deaths" in 2020 and Canada has had almost 16,000. And some of those were not the usual demographic to which you refer.

Bottom line: It sounds like you are not willing to put up with 24 hours of aches in order to really conquer this disease (and save a lot of lives in other "demographics") and I find that sad and shameful. I just wish there weren't as many people like you as there are. As far as Vancouver Island being spared, if a lot of people there think as you do and remain unvaccinated, that is very likely not to remain the case forever unless you seal yourselves off. It's a place that used to be a great place to visit in summer and inevitably a tourist or two will bring the virus with him or her. It will come to pockets of susceptible around the world.

I think adversarial rhetoric such as this aren't going to get vax fence sitters to change their mind. It probably has opposite effect. I have friend who is apprehensive about vaccine because of side effects but I didn't judge or lecture him; only mentioned that my personal reaction was minimal and gone within 24 hours.

Steely Dan May 23, 2021 6:14 AM

Got up to the upper 80s today. Beach day!

Shit was packed on the Chicago lakefront.

I thankfully didn't see a single fucking mask.

Normal summer. The sweetest fruit there is.

the urban politician May 23, 2021 2:25 PM

^ Yesterday was bananas in Chicagoland. Up here in my quaint little suburb the downtown as jam packed. Cars everywhere, smells of food cooking everywhere.

But I had a new first yesterday:

For the first time in 15 months I sat at a bar, ordered a pint, and sat and drank it. Ahhhh, I missed that!

Interestingly the bar had a sign at the door “Mask required for entry” so I went in with a mask on. But nobody was wearing one so I took it off.

the urban politician May 23, 2021 2:50 PM

My local grocer lifted their mask requirement for those who’ve been vaccinated.

I was self conscious last week so I kept it on.

Then yesterday I said “screw it” and went in without the mask. It felt odd. I then realized I had not done a very good job of trimming my nose hairs.

May sound silly, but after a year of wearing a mask everywhere these little details become important again.

xzmattzx May 23, 2021 5:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9289237)
^ Yesterday was bananas in Chicagoland. Up here in my quaint little suburb the downtown as jam packed. Cars everywhere, smells of food cooking everywhere.

But I had a new first yesterday:

For the first time in 15 months I sat at a bar, ordered a pint, and sat and drank it. Ahhhh, I missed that!

Interestingly the bar had a sign at the door “Mask required for entry” so I went in with a mask on. But nobody was wearing one so I took it off.

Wearing a mask to go into a restaurant kind of pointed out how ridiculous the masks are, when you think of it in different ways. I understand needing (or having needed) to wear it as much as possible, and that wearing a mask when you're eating or drinking is not possible. In that regard, it makes sense. But then when you think of it, you needed a mask to walk through a doorway, but did not need to wear a mask for an extended period of time inside while you ate and drank. If going 45 minutes without wearing a mask while you eat is fine, and cases did not increase with this, then why wear the mask for the 30 seconds when you walk through the door to your table?

Pedestrian May 23, 2021 6:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xzmattzx (Post 9289336)
Wearing a mask to go into a restaurant kind of pointed out how ridiculous the masks are, when you think of it in different ways. I understand needing (or having needed) to wear it as much as possible, and that wearing a mask when you're eating or drinking is not possible. In that regard, it makes sense. But then when you think of it, you needed a mask to walk through a doorway, but did not need to wear a mask for an extended period of time inside while you ate and drank. If going 45 minutes without wearing a mask while you eat is fine, and cases did not increase with this, then why wear the mask for the 30 seconds when you walk through the door to your table?

Indoor dining (and drinking in a bar) are unique situations in that the primary activity makes mask-wearing impossible. That's why most localities simply closed such places during the worst of the epidemic and sensible reopening consists of separating tables by more than the usual distance and improving ventiullation when possible. Masks have little to do with it and discussing masks in such a context is a straw man.

Pedestrian May 23, 2021 6:36 PM

Quote:

COVID: What do California, Texas, New York and Florida have in common? Stunningly low infection rates
By JOHN WOOLFOLK | jwoolfolk@bayareanewsgroup.com | Bay Area News Group
PUBLISHED: May 22, 2021 at 7:00 a.m. | UPDATED: May 23, 2021 at 4:50 a.m.

Perhaps no states represent the red-blue divide better than deeply Democratic California and New York and Republican-run Texas and Florida. And their approaches to fighting the COVID-19 pandemic, from mask rules to shutdowns to online schools, have been quite different, with the Golden and Empire states more aggressive with public health mandates while the Sunshine and Lone Star states have been out front on reopening.

But there is one thing they now share: COVID-19 case rates have been falling in all four of the country’s largest states, particularly over the last month, according to data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. And experts say their similar fates can’t simply be explained by the success of vaccines . . . .

The answer to what’s driving down infection rates in states that define the country’s stark divide is more than a quest for political bragging rights. It can help identify sound strategies for the next public health crisis.

Dr. George Rutherford, an epidemiologist at UC San Francisco, said declining case rates reflect a number of things — how much virus is currently circulating; how much disease there has been in the community, allowing resistance to build as more people recover from infection; vaccination rates; and virus variants.

He noted that Florida, which has the highest case rate among the four big states, is only just recovering after a March surge that peaked in mid-April. But he remains a bit puzzled why Texas has followed a similar downward trajectory as California, though its rate of new infections is still higher than the Golden State . . . .

Here’s how the four big states compared:

Infection rates: Like the rest of the country, the four big states all suffered a deadly surge in cases over the winter, but California was the hardest hit. The seven-day moving average number of cases per 100,000 people shot up in January to 114 in California, according to the CDC. It reached 95 in New York, 82 in Florida and 79 in Texas. But California also saw the sharpest drop in cases and currently boasts the lowest rate, a mere 1.3. The rate now sits at 6.5 in Texas, 9.5 in New York and 13.8 in Florida, all of which saw smaller spikes this year as case rates fell.
Vaccinations: California also has the highest vaccination rate among the big states, according to the CDC, with 54% of its total population having received at least one shot compared with 53% in New York, 47% in Florida and 42% in Texas.
Mask mandates: California in June 2020 required face masks for everyone down to age 2 in most settings outside the home, easing the rule earlier this month to let the fully vaccinated forgo face coverings outdoors except in crowds. The state put off until June 15 new CDC guidance that the vaccinated may go maskless except in a few indoor settings like public transit. New York replaced its 13-month mask mandate similar to California’s on Wednesday with the new CDC guidance. Texas ended its 8-month mask requirement March 10 and as of Friday will fine local agencies that attempt to impose them. Florida has never had a state mask requirement, and on May 3 suspended all local COVID restrictions and mask requirements statewide.
Reopening: California is putting off a broad removal of business capacity limits and most other elements of the state’s color-coded tiered restrictions until June 15, when it also will loosen mask rules. New York took a similar step Wednesday. Texas lifted its business capacity restrictions March 10. Florida lifted all local COVID-19 restrictions May 3.
Schools: Schools around the country closed as COVID-19 swept the country in the spring of 2020, but they haven’t been found to drive community infections and many resumed a partial or full return of kids to classrooms last fall. California has been among the slowest to fully reopen schools, with less than one in four districts operating fully in-person rather than partly or fully remote. About one in four New York districts are fully in person and 78 percent of Texas districts, while all Florida schools are fully open.

What to make of all that? Rutherford said widespread infection in Southern California, the epicenter of the state’s winter case surge, may have left so many immune as they began to recover from the virus that it slowed the virus’s spread. Immunity after infection could also have factored into slowing the spread in other states as well.

The sharp drop in infection rates began well before vaccines became widely available, and Troisi said current vaccination rates aren’t high enough to stop the virus from spreading, noting that children under 12 remain ineligible for vaccines.

Rutherford said that’s one reason he supports Gov. Gavin Newsom’s plan to delay a loosening of mask rules for the vaccinated until mid-June, as it will allow time for more people to get the shots. It’s unclear what percentage of the population needs to be immunized to stop the virus from spreading — so-called “herd immunity” which could require 70-80% to be vaccinated. But the more people who get the shots, the closer it gets . . . .

Experts like Troisi remain puzzled at the similar case trajectories in the large states despite vastly different rules. But she noted that people in all states don’t necessarily take their cues from the state capital. When Texas lifted its mask mandate in March, she said, “I predicted cases would go up.”

“We didn’t see that,” Troisi said. “But even when masks are not required, a certain segment of the population is going to continue wearing them.”

She said when she went to work out at the gym after the latest CDC easing of mask rules, and “it seemed to me the same number of people were wearing them.” But she added, “it’s hard to see” from the data “how much that’s stopping transmission.”

She also noted that cellphone geolocation data show people are spending more time outdoors, where transmission of the virus is rare, which may also factor into the falling case rates. She noted that experts remain puzzled why the deadly 1918 “Spanish Flu” pandemic ended abruptly a year later when there weren’t any vaccines . . . .

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/ser...794870/enhance

https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/05/...fection-rates/

the urban politician May 23, 2021 6:42 PM

Goes to show you that all of these top-down shutdown measures were unnecessary and did more harm than good

All you had to do was tell everybody, “There is a virus spreading and it’s killing people!” and that would’ve been enough.

biguc May 23, 2021 6:57 PM

It's spring. We went through this last year. It takes a special kind of idiot to reach for an explanation beyond that, and a special kind of asshole to make it political and still downplay things.

Pedestrian May 23, 2021 6:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9289122)
I think adversarial rhetoric such as this aren't going to get vax fence sitters to change their mind. It probably has opposite effect. I have friend who is apprehensive about vaccine because of side effects but I didn't judge or lecture him; only mentioned that my personal reaction was minimal and gone within 24 hours.

I don't think this forum is the place to convince anyone to do anything and I doubt any minds have ever been changed, ever. It's a place to express rather firm opinions and debate. At most there are maybe 20 people actively participating. If I'm not mistaken, most of the "adversarial rhetoric" has been directed at me (check the number of posts in which I am called out). So when there is disagreement, I think it's entirely appropriate to be specific about it . . . HERE.

When it come to campaigns intended to have a mass effect on changing minds, that's another matter and a lot of thought at the government level has been put into that:

Quote:

Here's What Will Actually Convince People to Get Vaccinated
BY JEFFREY KLUGER
APRIL 2, 2021 9:31 AM EDT

In theory, when so many of the strategies for beating the COVID-19 pandemic depend on abiding by social distancing and other rules, shaming people who don’t ought to be a powerful way to bring us back in line. But increasingly, experts believe, the opposite is true. “The thinking has been that the more you shame people the more they will obey,” says Giovanni Travaglino, an assistant professor of social psychology at Kent University. “But this turns out to be absolutely wrong.”

Last month, Travaglino and Chanki Moon, an assistant professor of psychology at Leeds Beckett University, published a paper in Frontiers in Psychology that threw the ineffectiveness of shaming into relief. They assembled nearly 1,900 people from the U.S., Italy and South Korea—choosing those countries on the basis of their differing sense of the collective culture, with the U.S. judged the most individualistic, South Korea the most group-oriented and Italy in between. The subjects were asked to rate how ashamed or guilty they’d feel if they contracted COVID-19. They were also asked to rate how often they obey guidelines like social distancing and how likely they’d be to tell friends, acquaintances and health authorities if they tested positive. In all three countries, the higher the level of shame and guilt people felt over falling ill, the less likely they were to play it safe and to report their COVID-19 status.

In the U.S. and elsewhere, the antivaccine movement has long been a threat to public health, and many pro-vaccine messages have been designed to shame adherents. A December story in the U.K.’s Metro featured the headline “People think anti-vaxxers are ‘stupid and selfish.'” Attention-grabbing, maybe, but counterproductive. “It’s hard to get people to act in a cooperative manner when you approach them that way,” says Travaglino. “It’s associated with subordination to authority, and people don’t like that.”

A new TIME/Harris Poll survey similarly suggests individual authority figures aren’t very effective at convincing vaccine skeptics.

Of U.S. adults who had recently been vaccinated, only 32% said they were influenced by a local official reaching out directly via email, phone or mail. Much more effective, it seems, are appeals to people’s individual needs and desires. Some 52% of those polled said they got the vaccine because they wanted to travel, for example. The people around us also play a major role, with 56% of respondents saying they got vaccinated after a friend or family member did, and 59% saying they were influenced merely by having a conversation with such a closely connected person. And despite our ostensible mistrust in the media, 63% said they were influenced by news reports about people who had already been vaccinated.

Indeed, past research shows value in appealing to us through personal stories. In a 2015 study published in the PNAS, volunteers took a survey on their attitudes about vaccines and were then divided into three groups, each given one of three things to read: material showing that autism and vaccines are not related; a paragraph of a mother describing her child’s bout with measles; and material on an unrelated science topic. When the subjects took the vaccine survey again, all were more pro-vaccine than before, but the ones who read the mother’s account were dramatically more so, with an increase five times as great as that of the group that had read the material on autism and six times that of the control group.

Personal accounts can have a negative impact too. A new study published in PLOS ONE, by researchers from the University of Illinois and the Annenberg Public Policy Center, found that subjects who saw a video clip of Dr. Anthony Fauci talking about the safety and effectiveness of the measles vaccine came away from it more favorably disposed to vaccination overall. But the positive effect was diminished when they saw another video clip first, of a mother describing the severe rash one of her children developed after receiving the vaccine. The solution, the paper concluded, is not for the media to censor such accounts but to precede them with real-world data on the minimal risks and the considerable benefits of vaccines . . . .
https://time.com/5951755/how-to-conv...et-vaccinated/

The article concludes by saying

Quote:

What doesn’t work, clearly, is pointing fingers and casting blame and shame. It’s the virus that’s the enemy, after all, not the people it infects.
I think that's absolutely true in terms of public campaigns but it's not what we are about HERE. On the mass level, this is an exercise in PR and using whatever psychological tricks and manipulation the government can come up with, for the good of us all. But I'd hate to think SSP forums are about psychological tricks and manipulation.

TWAK May 23, 2021 7:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9289378)
Goes to show you that all of these top-down shutdown measures were unnecessary and did more harm than good

All you had to do was tell everybody, “There is a virus spreading and it’s killing people!” and that would’ve been enough.

Deaths were the first thing the pro-virus people were trying to downplay, and the lockdown prevented more deaths from happening. As well as preventing more cases and infections, but that has also been downplayed.

Pedestrian May 23, 2021 7:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9289378)
Goes to show you that all of these top-down shutdown measures were unnecessary and did more harm than good

All you had to do was tell everybody, “There is a virus spreading and it’s killing people!” and that would’ve been enough.

You greatly over-estimate the intelligence and rationality of the average American. At the very least, in addition to telling them that, you have to tell them what they can do about it if they choose to. I agree there's an argument about whether any level of compulsion is appropriate, but scientifically-based advice certainly is/was.

And there's another thing: We know so much more about this virus now than we did a year ago. Back then we knew almost nothing. Nobody would argue every decision made then was the right one. But the people arguing the most vociferously that bad decisions were made would have probably made worse ones.

Finally, what's missing in all this and always has been is concrete government direct action. 10023 argued from the beginning they should just keep all then old people in their homes and let the rest proceed as normal. What I responded a year ago and would today is that in order to do that, there would have needed to be government help for them to get food, get a home repair done safely if one was needed, get their other medical needs met and so on. No one can just "stay home" for a year and have no interaction with other younger, healthier people and not everyone can afford Doordash and other delivery services. For the first 6 months of the pandemic I mostly stayed home and did get most things delivered until important reasons to go out or to invite outsiders in began piling up. You can only do that for so long and I was near my limit when the vaccine came along. I'm sure other people were as well, but government could have helped and mostly didn't.

eixample May 23, 2021 8:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV (Post 9288406)
I'd like to see legislation explicitly allowing employers to require vaccination for at least new employees/promotions. I've heard anecdotally that a lot of places are scared to require that of employees for legal reasons, real or imagined. UChicago is requiring vaccination of students, but not of staff or faculty, for example (though I suspect vaccination rates among at least the academic staff are near 100%.). It seems like they're likely figuring it out with the lawyers...

I may be wrong, but I don't think there is much of a legal risk to employers (or universities) for having a vaccine mandate. The employer wouldn't face liability for side effects from the vaccine since there is a special statutory liability system for that and any concern about an exemption can be handled on a case by case basis. The issue the U of Chicago is likely facing is that they have unionized staff and faculty and they don't want to have to bargain over vaccines. The reason most employers aren't mandating vaccines is because they (a) don't care, (b) know it will be unpopular and difficult to enforce or (c) don't think it's necessary.

twister244 May 23, 2021 9:09 PM

Ran on the lakefront Friday night.... Went out to eat in the West Loop, and was on a boat all day Saturday. Thank god normal Chicago summer is here.

Camelback May 23, 2021 9:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan (Post 9289142)
Got up to the upper 80s today. Beach day!

Shit was packed on the Chicago lakefront.

I thankfully didn't see a single fucking mask.

Normal summer. The sweetest fruit there is.

Welcome back to the new normal of 2019!

SIGSEGV May 23, 2021 9:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eixample (Post 9289457)
I may be wrong, but I don't think there is much of a legal risk to employers (or universities) for having a vaccine mandate. The employer wouldn't face liability for side effects from the vaccine since there is a special statutory liability system for that and any concern about an exemption can be handled on a case by case basis. The issue the U of Chicago is likely facing is that they have unionized staff and faculty and they don't want to have to bargain over vaccines. The reason most employers aren't mandating vaccines is because they (a) don't care, (b) know it will be unpopular and difficult to enforce or (c) don't think it's necessary.

I've heard from friends at various finance places that they have similar legal concerns and as many as 25% of their employees have said they won't get the vaccine. But maybe that's cover for not wanting to piss specific people off...

Anyway while faculty are unionized, other academic staff (including postdocs) are not. Much of the service staff is externally contracted, so that might be another barrier.

jtown,man May 23, 2021 9:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9289255)
My local grocer lifted their mask requirement for those who’ve been vaccinated.

I was self conscious last week so I kept it on.

Then yesterday I said “screw it” and went in without the mask. It felt odd. I then realized I had not done a very good job of trimming my nose hairs.

May sound silly, but after a year of wearing a mask everywhere these little details become important again.

Yeah, I was out in the burbs and forgot I didn't need to wear a mask. I only saw like 6 people not wearing their masks in the grocery stores so I just kept mine on (I am also completely burnt from being outside all day on Sat, so it worked out for me lol). It will probably take the burbs a few more weeks until we see a significant minority of people going maskless in places like Wal Mart.


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