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-   -   Phoenix Development News (3) (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=173764)

biggus diggus Apr 17, 2017 6:41 PM

Central station, Derby, the countless little things Lafferty has said he's going to build, the stuff by the capitol, central and Pierson apartments, the list goes​ on.

It's generally pretty transparent which projects are real and which ones are land bank projects.

ASUSunDevil Apr 17, 2017 6:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obadno (Post 7775530)
The only major flop I can think of in recent years is the Central station tower.

The lead developers death didn't help Central Station's chances of getting built.

The only reason to be bearish on Downtown Phoenix stems from the bonehead city leaders that cater to Nimby's.

Obadno Apr 17, 2017 6:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biggus diggus (Post 7775541)
Central station, Derby, the countless little things Lafferty has said he's going to build, the stuff by the capitol, central and Pierson apartments, the list goes​ on.

It's generally pretty transparent which projects are real and which ones are land bank projects.

and by the same token we have Block 23, Barrister, Hampton Inn and apartment tower, ASU law School, Alta, Portland on the park, Enhannce, Muse, Arthaus, Macayos, broadstone both at Mcdowell and 3rd street, Roosevelt Point, Illuminate, Proxy, that other one at third street, Desoto, Central and Roosevelt, Banner tower, UofA medical center, capitol place condos etc. etc. etc.

there is more good news than bad don't be a party pooper dude:cheers:

CrestedSaguaro Apr 17, 2017 6:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biggus diggus (Post 7775509)
Negativity is the realistic point of view learned from years of watching this kind of thing in downtown Phoenix be teased and never built. It's also based on looking at something which is, simply put, a far fetched idea in a market which will have trouble justifying it.

I'd say easily 75% of proposals never get off the ground here.

Back in the early 2000's, yes...75% of the proposal never got off the ground. The economy was struggling, people were not moving (especially to Downtown) and the LTR was not even in operation yet. In the last 3 years, it's more like 10% and that is higher than it should be because of the first failed Fillmore RFP, Central Station (and I think we all can agree that it shouldn't have been built as proposed) and Barrister going through multiple developers.

As for 3rd and Pierce, the GPLET has city counsel support and will most likely be approved. An FAA Obstruction evaluation has been submitted and meetings with the locals and the RAA have occurred regarding 3rd and Pierce and it seems to have their support (compared to Circles and Derby).

biggus diggus Apr 17, 2017 7:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASUSunDevil (Post 7775547)
The lead developers death didn't help Central Station's chances of getting built.

The only reason to be bearish on Downtown Phoenix stems from the bonehead city leaders that cater to Nimby's.


I'm not trying to start an argument with you guys but the reason for the development not happening is irrelevant to me. The fact is most stuff doesn't get built and as the project gets more expensive and more grand the likelihood diminishes. The sheer number of 'developers' trying to sell build-ready projects is astounding and makes up a pretty good majority of the "failed" projects, that practice is not unique to the 90's, 2000's, or today. Land banking has been going on for as long as this country has existed.

I get that some of you really love skyscrapers and yearn for more development, as I do or I would not be posting here, but you have to look at things with a realistic perspective. It's either do that or constantly set yourself up for disappointment.

mdpx Apr 17, 2017 8:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biggus diggus (Post 7775573)
I'm not trying to start an argument with you guys but the reason for the development not happening is irrelevant to me. The fact is most stuff doesn't get built and as the project gets more expensive and more grand the likelihood diminishes. The sheer number of 'developers' trying to sell build-ready projects is astounding and makes up a pretty good majority of the "failed" projects, that practice is not unique to the 90's, 2000's, or today. Land banking has been going on for as long as this country has existed.

I get that some of you really love skyscrapers and yearn for more development, as I do or I would not be posting here, but you have to look at things with a realistic perspective. It's either do that or constantly set yourself up for disappointment.

He's right everyone. Hope is dangerous. Just die so you won't be disappointed.

CrestedSaguaro Apr 17, 2017 8:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biggus diggus (Post 7775573)
I'm not trying to start an argument with you guys but the reason for the development not happening is irrelevant to me. The fact is most stuff doesn't get built and as the project gets more expensive and more grand the likelihood diminishes. The sheer number of 'developers' trying to sell build-ready projects is astounding and makes up a pretty good majority of the "failed" projects, that practice is not unique to the 90's, 2000's, or today. Land banking has been going on for as long as this country has existed.

I get that some of you really love skyscrapers and yearn for more development, as I do or I would not be posting here, but you have to look at things with a realistic perspective. It's either do that or constantly set yourself up for disappointment.

I'm not setting myself up for disappointment in a city that I was very disappointed with in it's downtown core when I first moved here 4 years ago. The first place I worked for was Xerox in Midtown and believe me....I could walk across Central during lunch without the slightest worry about traffic. That's not the case now. Good luck getting across Central without a crosswalk.

This city has grown by leaps and bounds in a place that technically...like Vegas...should not even be nowhere near this size. But yet, people still move here in troves. Development will always happen here. Its the nature and draw of this place. The core has to play catch up, but it will. The demographic is changing. It's no longer just for retired people which constitute a great deal of the NIMBY'ism mentality here. That era is coming to an end. As the demographic gets younger, the city will mature and that includes Downtown/Midtown.

We probably will never see a Supertall built here. But I see no reason for a few developments like 3rd and Pierce to pop up and get built...especially when the market is hot which it is right now. No one can dispute that.

If 3rd and Pierce doesn't get built, I won't be disappointed. It's already been beyond anything I ever expected to happen. There's still plenty of other projects in the pipeline that will get built and I'm happy to see the progress :tup:

combusean Apr 17, 2017 8:42 PM

I kind of like the spaghetti approach. Throw enough at the wall and hope something sticks.

I think every developer thinks they're going to be the lucky noodle.

combusean Apr 17, 2017 8:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickw252 (Post 7775461)
Wow how times have changed. I can't imaging a building like that, in the middle of the lot surrounded by surface parking, would be built today.

That's not surface parking, that's the street.

biggus diggus Apr 17, 2017 8:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by combusean (Post 7775666)

going to be the lucky noodle.

We all want to be the lucky noodle every now and then, reminds me of Vegas with the boys in 1998 hitting every strip club in town and... nevermind.

biggus diggus Apr 17, 2017 8:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos (Post 7775664)
I'm not setting myself up for disappointment in a city that I was very disappointed with in it's downtown core when I first moved here 4 years ago. The first place I worked for was Xerox in Midtown and believe me....I could walk across Central during lunch without the slightest worry about traffic. That's not the case now. Good luck getting across Central without a crosswalk.

This city has grown by leaps and bounds in a place that technically...like Vegas...should not even be nowhere near this size. But yet, people still move here in troves. Development will always happen here. Its the nature and draw of this place. The core has to play catch up, but it will. The demographic is changing. It's no longer just for retired people which constitute a great deal of the NIMBY'ism mentality here. That era is coming to an end. As the demographic gets younger, the city will mature and that includes Downtown/Midtown.

We probably will never see a Supertall built here. But I see no reason for a few developments like 3rd and Pierce to pop up and get built...especially when the market is hot which it is right now. No one can dispute that.

If 3rd and Pierce doesn't get built, I won't be disappointed. It's already been beyond anything I ever expected to happen. There's still plenty of other projects in the pipeline that will get built and I'm happy to see the progress :tup:

I hope it all gets built, but I'm cautiously optimistic that just a bit of it will come to fruition. I agree with you the city has grown tremendously, I first noticed it about 3 years ago, getting frustrated every time I drove somewhere. It felt like all of a sudden everything was just busier, it's a very different place. I still remember living in Maryvale in the nineties when Olive Garden and a movie Westridge Mall was a big night out. Now we have more one-off restaurants than we can shake a stick at.

exit2lef Apr 18, 2017 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by combusean (Post 7775666)
I kind of like the spaghetti approach. Throw enough at the wall and hope something sticks.

I think every developer thinks they're going to be the lucky noodle.

"Lucky Noodle" sounds like a good name for a restaurant, maybe one in ground floor retail space in the proposed 3rd St. & Pierce development.

Quote:

Originally Posted by combusean (Post 7775671)
That's not surface parking, that's the street.

Agreed. Speaking of parking, the rendering of the project that was never built does not appear to have the first few floors dedicated to a parking podium. Unfortunately, the new proposal looks like it does. Since the new proposal is adhering to an old school 1:1 ratio of dwelling units to parking spaces, all that vehicle storage must go somewhere. Nevertheless, if the developer truly wants / needs to build all that parking, it would make the project even more attractive it were built underground or in a central garage situated among all the buildings.

Obadno Apr 18, 2017 4:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exit2lef (Post 7775877)
"Lucky Noodle" sounds like a good name for a restaurant, maybe one in ground floor retail space in the proposed 3rd St. & Pierce development.



Agreed. Speaking of parking, the rendering of the project that was never built does not appear to have the first few floors dedicated to a parking podium. Unfortunately, the new proposal looks like it does. Since the new proposal is adhering to an old school 1:1 ratio of dwelling units to parking spaces, all that vehicle storage must go somewhere. Nevertheless, if the developer truly wants / needs to build all that parking, it would make the project even more attractive it were built underground or in a central garage situated among all the buildings.

I honestly dont mind large parking podiums so long as they are attractively designed and the first 15-20 feet be engaging at the street level with retail etc.

phoenixwillrise Apr 18, 2017 4:44 AM

Thank you Goldwater Foundation
 
For your narrow myopic vision. The greater good could be achieved by the City of Phoenix giving tax breaks to some potential high rise developers but it appears the Goldwater Foundation wants to make it "fair" for everybody which in turn sticks us with a low rise downtown forever. Can't you clowns go to some other major city and make life miserable for them instead of Phoenix?

KEVINphx Apr 18, 2017 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos (Post 7773599)
That clears up a lot. Thanks for clarifying!

IMO, Derby is one of the best potential developments we have going right now. It would be a shame to see this go. If Goldwater rules in favor of the lawsuit, I see something similar to Circles happening...a few adjustments to appease the RAA (I don't think Matt can be appeased no matter what on this) and they get the go ahead.

Either way, I think Derby will still get built and money will be spent and wasted on a frivolous lawsuit that won't stop the development.

Goldwater is the plaintiff or suing party in this case - they will not be "making" the ruling, the Arizona Supreme Court is.

phoenixwillrise Apr 18, 2017 2:44 PM

My point exactly
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KEVINphx (Post 7776139)
Goldwater is the plaintiff or suing party in this case - they will not be "making" the ruling, the Arizona Supreme Court is.


No plaintiff no ruling. Go away Goldwater Institute

biggus diggus Apr 18, 2017 2:49 PM

I don't think you understand how court works.

CrestedSaguaro Apr 18, 2017 3:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KEVINphx (Post 7776139)
Goldwater is the plaintiff or suing party in this case - they will not be "making" the ruling, the Arizona Supreme Court is.

Yea...I know that. It was mistyped. Thanks for pointing out something petty :breakcomp:

azsunsurfer Apr 18, 2017 3:34 PM

Nor does he fully grasp what corporate welfare is...I think it's time these projects get off the ground without a break from the taxpayer. During a recession or when they are trying to build some synergy off of a depressed area, I get it. Now land prices should pencil most of these projects out.

fawd Apr 18, 2017 3:37 PM

Empty lot across from Renaissance hotel on Adams (behind Hanny's) is being torn up.

I assume for streetscape improvements.


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