Yes, No and Sorta: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...postcount=2893

I've spent months in downtown Chicago. I stayed at the Hampton Inn on State and Monroe for over a month which is in the center of the loop. Tourists don't hang out at Mellinnium Park at night unless there is an event, and the streets are dead enough to skateboard on. You just named a lot of places that aren't even in the loop. As far as LA LIVE being downtown, of course a developer would say downtown. They wouldn't say "located close to downtown in a shitty area" would they?

anyway, now we are arguing semantics which is just retarded. The point is, LA is as vibrant, cultural, and interesting a city as any in North America and if you don't realize that, then you owe it a visit. Chicago is my second home, lol... don't even try to argue the loop with me.

Who cares if L.A. LIVE isn't in the center of downtown it is still in downtown be it on the fringe; I've posted a map which shows all the areas I named being within the Loop... The Loop is a small area of Chicago; that city is much more exciting than L.A. When were you last "home" (Chicago) because there are plenty of people in the Park at night (not at midnight but still). The sculptures, Buckingham Fountain are illuminated beautifully at night and from Thanksgiving until March the ice rink is packed after dark...

L.A. has some interesting stuff, but my argument leans more towards its unsustainable aspects and why Phoenix should avoid its development pitfalls.

??? Not sure what point you're trying to make...

I was there less than two months ago, and I still think Los Angeles is a more interesting and more culturally diverse city, with much more to do. It's every bit as dense as Chicagoland as well.

I'm done arguing with you, several people have already countered your opinions and It's a dumb thing to argue about in the first place.

No one has really countered but argued around the main issue. But getting back to development in Phoenix:

TakeFive, you asked about interest in building more office space in downtown and the current market situation. I don't think that midtown has to have high occupancy rates in order for downtown to attract development. There is interest in building downtown (this has been mentioned before) and by a Chicago developer; what a coincidence. Some interesting facts about Phoenix office vacancy rates and future real estate trends were stated in the article about the development near 2nd and Monroe:

"David Roderique, CEO of the Downtown Phoenix Partnership, acknowledged the real estate market is down, but he said the downtown area would be first to get off the mat when a recovery occurs.

Roderique said the downtown office vacancy rate is 13 percent, compared with 22 percent for the entire Valley."
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/p...wn.html?page=2

To be fair, I did argue for that possibility back in November, but my last comment was:
That was also before I became aware of more than a little vacancy up the street.

You're right though that the vacancy rate is reasonable in downtown, the question is what kind of demand is out there. Remember, One Central Park East enticed Freeport-McMoran into leasing space for their HQ,
then converted the rest of the building to a Westin Hotel (because of lack of demand for office space).

Sorry 'bout the Suns. Perhaps the good news is that the upcoming road trip should send them up near the top... if you're looking at the Draft List. At least the Heat lost in a fun game to my Nuggets. :tup:

Its nice to see the wheels of a tower project starting to move now, however slowly, so that when the market recovers things can happen right away. It seems like Central Phx always misses the front half of a boom due to overly cautious developers.

I expected the Suns to have a horrible year again; no playoffs but they still play some exciting games.

As for the Westin, it wasn't a lack of demand that drove them into the building, but need for hotel rooms and the developer seeking their brand. When Freeport-McMoRan moved into One CPE the Phoenix School of Law moved into their old headquarters.

There is potential demand for office space... this is one reason why companies have overlooked a possible move to downtown like Bar-S (eventually moving to Camelback). If there was a nice, new tower in downtown I bet they would have leased space there (CityScape was/is nearly full and One CPE is fully leased). Furthermore, most of the office vacancies in downtown aren't in the towers but in older, low-slung buildings that probably will never be used again as offices; e.g. that building across from the 3 tall townhouses where Moira is located. The Midtown office vacancy rate is high; it is 24% but those buildings will be used again in the future.

That doesn't make any sense. Those "low slung" buildings have such a small number of offices available, how could they contribute such a high percentage?

13% is high? The "downtown market" also stretches into south Phoenix for market analysis...fyi.

No, I'm saying those tiny buildings could never have such a high effect on the total number.

They do because the market analysis for downtown includes offices just past the Salt River. I haven't come across a report that focuses on vacancy rates for the area we consider downtown nor one limited to an area where only the towers stand.

The occupancy rates in the towers makes up for the lower vacancy rates in the rest of the downtown market; an important indicator of current trends and potential for expanding highrise office space in DT.

The Downtown Office market if distinct is not very big (that much space). But downtown 'A' space also competes with the Biltmore area as well as Tempe to an extent. Indeed Biltmore has taken tenants from mid-town.

Given the market, tenants that have been able to, have played musical chairs for either/and/or better space, cheaper space and space they can grow into. This will continue for a bit.
It is very likely that CityScape settled for rates/incentives packages much less than what they had originally anticipated.

I do believe the allure for more downtown 'A' space will develop soon enough but exactly how soon is a different question. A nice new downtown tower will throw a lot of space into that marketplace.
Short of an identifiable tenant or two there will likely be some delay.

But in hindsight it will happen fast.

Christown Mall Changes Looming

Vestar Development Co. has taken over management of the landmark Christown Spectrum Mall in central Phoenix with plans to bring new vitality and increased traffic to the 51-year-old shopping center.

It's the third major property-management deal the company has landed in the past few months. Vestar recently took over management of the troubled Westgate City Center project in Glendale

The 85-acre Christown property is one of metro Phoenix's most successful infill-retail-redevelopment projects. But McGinley believes Vestar's local focus and expertise can take the center to a new level.

"We want to bring some of the programs and marketing expertise we gained at Tempe Marketplace and Desert Ridge (Marketplace) to create a more exciting shopping environment at Christown," he said.

Although Christown anchors such as Target, Costco, J.C. Penney and Walmart are thriving, some of the interior spaces are struggling. McGinley hopes to find ways to direct the traffic from the anchors to the interior of the mall to attract new tenants there.

Read more here.

As from a post on Roosevelt Row's facebook page...

"Word on the street is that a book shop might be coming to fifth street South of Roosevelt"

It is my proud duty to annouce this!!!!!! I've been waiting a long freakin time for downtown to have it!!!!!1!
http://downtowndevil.com/2012/01/19/...lt-publishing/:banana::banana:

Well That's Pretty Cool
 

http://www.metrolic.com/wp-content/u...ading_Book.gif
http://www.metrolic.com/wp-content/u...ing-a-book.gif

Timing Is Everything....
 

New York firm buys Metrocenter Mall for $12.2M
Phoenix Business Journal by Jan Buchholz, Reporter
Date: Thursday, January 19, 2012, 6:23pm MST - Last Modified: Friday, January 20, 2012, 9:28am MST
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...nter-mall.html Not sure we'll see anything dramatic soon, but it has to be a big positive to get this out of Bankruptcy/Receivership back into private hands. Apparently as the markets wobbled, so did this deal, but they got her done.

I would think the buyers timing is excellent, that there's good opportunity for upside so here's hoping the owners help and do well. :tup:

I can't imagine if we'll ever see anything dramatic, as it's just not a location in which retailers really want to sign leases.

Of course I can remember when it was just a pup. Has something changed?

We might all be pleasantly surprised by the next decade. With ten new skyscrapers downtown it's hard to gauge the spillover affects.

It's the hood. I used to go there after school when I went to Washington High Shool back in 2001-2003 and it was a little shady but fine. Nowadays the mall is full of brand x shops, airbrush kiosks, really the same crap you find at Desert Sky/Westridge. There are videos of youtube of people brawling in the food court, it's the carjacking capital of Arizona, and it's just an awful place. Comp USA, Trader Joe's, and everything else in that plaza to the west moved out years ago, the plaza to the south is struggling, and the mall looks like it's in shambles. Maybe I'm snobby, but when I pull into a place and the parking lot is full of weeds and potholes, it's an obvious sign that they are having trouble paying for maintenance.

Sad, truly, since I have so many good memories there. The girl I was dating at the time worked in that Paradise Bakery and I'd go get cookies and walk around being bastard teenagers with my idiot friends.

RIP My Friend
 

With the announcement of legendary Blues singer Etta James passing and as a casual but long time Blues fan, I was temped to go down to "Char's Has The Blues" on 7th Avenue.
Opening in 1985, I used to hang here in 1986/87 when I spent some extended time in Phoenix.

Nice to see it's still cookin' up some Blues. http://www.charshastheblues.com/

A tribute to an Urban classic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=LsSS9VcMidA#!

why is that development news?

At least he didn't post more 5 year old happy cartoons about how fun reading is.

Well.

I like to lurk around different City Development forums and couldn't help but notice that there seems to be an argument about L.A. going on in this one. phxSUNSfan seems very, very misinformed. Now, as someone who actually lives in Los Angeles, I think that I have a better idea of how it works then he does.

First off, phxSUNSfan seems to really hate decentralized cities. Ummm... why? I rather love them. Tokyo, for example, is extremely decentralized, and still manages to be an urban mecca. Actually, most of the very dense Asian and South American cities are decentralized. L.A. is very Asian and South American in its culture, so it makes sense that the city itself would follow suit. Even New York is decentralized, though to a lesser extent. Midtown and Downtown are two separate CBDs, not to mention all the new CBD popping up over in the Hudson Yards area. Seems pretty decentralized to me.


Well, don't tell that to L.A. L.A. has more subway/light rail construction right now then any other city in the United States does. Two lines are under construction right now, two more will start within the year, and another (the Purple Line extension, a full subway) will start the year after that. In fact, in 40 years, the L.A. Metro should look like this:

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/w...ransit-Map.jpg

Looks like a pretty good metro system to me....

This is the most common misconception about L.A. Downtown Los Angeles has 55,000 residents, with a median income of $83,000. There are dozens of high-end botiques, uncountable restaurants, two movie theaters, multiple playhouses, nightclubs, bookstores, barbershops, art stores, galleries, and more. Maybe in the 90s, which to me seems like the last time you visited L.A., Downtown was empty. Now? Well, I only started going to downtown a few years ago, and have never seen it empty. Literally, hipsters everywhere, which is not a bad thing.

[QUOTE=TakeFive;5549072]Whether L.A. Live is downtown is a debate I'll leave to others /QUOTE]

From a technical standpoint, it is. Downtown is defined as the area in the middle of two freeways and the L.A. river. L.A. Live is in that area. However, some might say it is separated from downtown due to the parking lots between South Park and the Financial District. This is true, but there is always new development filling the parking lots in. For example, this March, a 22 story hotel will break ground next to L.A. Live, filling in a parking lot and bringing L.A. Live closer to the rest of downtown from an urban fabric standpoint.

This will never change, yet it has nothing to do with smog or cars. This is because L.A. is a basin, making it hard for smoke to escape. Even hundreds of years ago, the Native American tribes used to call L.A. the 'valley of smoke' because the smoke from all the campfires they had would stay in the valley.

Should have 500,000 riders? Not really. The subway only goes from Downtown to Hollywood, and the rest of the rail only goes to East L.A. At the moment, the Metro doesn't enter the most densely populated part of L.A., the Westside. With that in mind, the amount of riders we are getting is pretty great. And, as the map has shown above, the fact that the Metro doesn't enter the Westside will be remedied soon.


That's about all I will do to defend L.A. You folks can come to your own conclusions.

Peace.

Guilty... Weekend filler?
Ever been to Char's?

EDIT: (after Nuggets win 2OT thriller over Knicks at the Gawden)

It was/is my intent to mothball this creative phase. I only posted this b/c
1. It has been SOOO slow here of late
2. But more importantly "it" made me recall some "good times" I'd had at Char's. Doing a quick Google check, I see that it has gotten lots of love from Phoenix New Times and from the Yelp crowd - etc.
Still around after 25 years comes close to making it an Urban Legend. It reminds a bit of the great Dive Bar in Denver called El Chapultepec.

Fair question: Apologies.... Here's to a new year with new cranes.


http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...ra4u/Sleep.gif

Thanks for your well crafted post and opinion.

Many cities suffer from being in a basin or valley including Phoenix and Denver.

TransportPolitc is an excellent site, I enjoy it.

Personal Discovery
 

Speaking of excellent web sites, perhaps some are already familiar, even though time is typically squeezed, this appears to be very well done, a site that I just discovered.

It's called Project for Public Spaces. ... http://www.pps.org/

TakeFive, do me a favor and post those random things in the Coffee Talk thread. :) All of the cross talk lately is clouding up what *should* be a Phoenix development news forum.

In the spirit of which, did anyone know Downtown has another tower crane up? :9

Lofts at McKinley... it's starting to be a nice addition to the corner. Unfortunately it's a mini westward ho. At least the Circle K's will enjoy the new customers.

http://emvis.net/~sean/ssp/projects/.../20120122a.jpg

http://emvis.net/~sean/ssp/projects/.../20120122b.jpg

The construction company is posting regular photo updates on their website:

http://tofelconstruction.com/LoftsMc...sMcKinley.html

Metrocenter for $12.2 million? Now that was a firesale if there ever was one. LOL.

I haven't been to a mall in many months, maybe even a year. They do nothing for me.

--don

Well unfortunately in Arizona if you want any designer stuff you have to go to one. I wish old town had been developed as a shopping district like Beverly hills rather than a mall.

Nice pics of the new crane! Thanks Combusean!!!

It wasn't for the whole mall, just most of the smaller stores, none of the anchors or food court or theaters.

nobody in their right mind goes to Metrocenter.. everything you need is at Fashion Square

There is a Dillard's clearance store with some incredible deals if you look for them. You won't find that at Fashion Square.

-Someone clearly not in his right mind

Never been to the Scottsdale Fashion Mall, if I'm lucky I never will go.

Agreed.

I can't afford to breath the air in Scottsdale Fashion Square. Plus I hate getting in and out of there. Goodwill is my store of choice these days. Maybe a sale rack at Ross, otherwise I don't do malls, period.

I recently received an update on the happenings on the dirt lot between My Florist and 5th Ave. The site plan showed that there would be two new restaurant pads and parking.

The developer has apparently told the Willo neighbors that until it acquires funding, there will be a grassy area where the buildings will "eventually" go. So if you were one of the people who guessed that this lot would be parking, you get a gold star for now.

According to this article, the sale was for the entire mall, except for three anchor stores:

http://www.azcentral.com/business/re...hows-woes.html

....Metrocenter's $12.2 million sale price represents a fraction of the mall's peak value and reflects the recent difficulties mall operators have faced keeping the retail project viable. Two of the mall's anchor spaces have been vacant for years, and the Dillard's department store now sells only clearance merchandise. The sale did not include three anchor-store spaces occupied by Sears, Macy's and Dillard's, each of which is independently owned, Hackett said.

Metrocenter has been in decline for several years, but in recent months, the retail-intensive area surrounding the mall has experienced a rebirth of sorts. Retail establishments including In-N-Out, Texas Roadhouse, Raising Cane's and QuikTrip have opened in recent months in the area immediately surounding the mall. Those ventures have performed well, Hackett said, a sign that a properly repositioned Metrocenter could succeed....

--don

Really? That's stupid!

I've been wondering as I drive by there several times a week.... I figured it would be just a parking lot, so I guess a grassy area is better than a paved lot or a dirt lot (although I guarantee you the grass will suck and die, they'll probably eventually put gravel there, if not from the beginning). Was still holding out hope for them to start building the new structures, I even searched the permits this morning to try to find out.

As long as it doesn't become a knoll.

Fence is being worked on at the Children's Museum...they have four concrete posts up, two at the front stairs and one at each corner of the property...looks like it will have a nice proper fence. Anyone know if they are changing the front entrance to be off of 7th St instead of through the back?

http://nitnelav.com/DTJAN262012/3.jpg

Sincerely doubt they would move the entrance after spending all that money on their fancy ass entry way out back. The gift shop and everything are in the new building so it would be weird if they used the main entrance.

Was I the only one not informed that they were planning to turn the front of the Heard Museum from an open grassy area to a minimum security prison? Why are they putting up the giant black fences? It's one place in the area where I had surprisingly never seen homeless people sleeping.

Yes, plus ADA requirements favor the rear entrance.

What about a dual entrance?

nevergonnahappen.

the fence they are putting in is niiiiiiiiiice.

Interesting tidbit:

http://downtowndevil.com/2012/01/27/...rity-building/

County committee approves plan for bike co-op in historic downtown building
By Aiyana Havir, On Friday, January 27th, 2012

The Maricopa County Facilities Review Committee approved on Thursday a proposal that could establish a full-time bike co-op downtown.

The Bicycle Cellar successfully jumped over the first of many hurdles when the FRC approved its business expansion to the first floor of downtown’s historic Security Building in Thursday’s meeting.

“This is a need for downtown,” Maricopa County Sustainability Manager Jonce Walker said. “It’s a need that will bridge multi-mobile transportation since it’s adjacent to Central Station, the hub of mass transit.”

The meeting was the Tempe-based bicycle-commuter facility’s fourth with the FRC over the proposed expansion....

--don

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's awesome they got it done!!!!!!