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-   -   CHICAGO | The 78 Site (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum//showthread.php?t=233449)

woodrow Jul 10, 2018 3:52 PM

^^to be fair, the 2 PT buildings between Jefferson & Desplaines still have a godawful street presence. Still, that area has REALLY improved.

The only "trophy lot" is the half block bounded by Jefferson, Desplaines, Monroe, and Adams - because of Heritage Green Park to the south and Old St. Patrick's complex to the west it will have light and views, it is 2 blocks from Union Station, quick highway access.

The Lurker Jul 10, 2018 8:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright (Post 8246656)
Here's a hint: they ain't building shit over by the freeway until all the super desirable sites that are along the river or right on top of the train station are filled up. Why? Because what tenant is going to be like "yes, I'd like to anchor this tower that's 3 blocks further from the train stations, not on the river, and much further from the loop and L because the skyline needs to see more office towers on these vacant lots"... No, they are going to go into the trophy tower with permanent river views every. single. time.

That's a ridiculous argument. Not all tenants can afford Class A office space on the river, nor do all tenants want to be next to the river. And not all developers own land next to the river. Mcdonald's and googke realky dropped the ball huh? Some tenants operate in the real world where there are unfortunately automobiles and expressways and they may even DESIRE to be closer to the expressway.
Imagine apartment hunting if it were simply a choice between an apartment overlooking the lake or one between a railroad and a freeway interchange in a bad area. If location and price werent factors I would live in One Museum Park but I'm not rich and I am employed in a different state

10023 Jul 10, 2018 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright (Post 8246656)
^^^ There's also as much space as is contained in those two office towers currently under construction in the Post Office which is also between the freeway and the river...

What a silly question anyhow, as if people build skyscrapers places because that's the aesthetically pleasing place to put them in the skyline. Here's a hint: they ain't building shit over by the freeway until all the super desirable sites that are along the river or right on top of the train station are filled up. Why? Because what tenant is going to be like "yes, I'd like to anchor this tower that's 3 blocks further from the train stations, not on the river, and much further from the loop and L because the skyline needs to see more office towers on these vacant lots"... No, they are going to go into the trophy tower with permanent river views every. single. time.

When did I ever say anything about being aesthetically pleasing in the skyline?

There are easily developable, essentially vacant, large parcels of land within walking distance of both major commuter rail stations. It’s not absurd to think they’d be developed at some point soon, probably before “the 78” (which is much less prime real estate).

10023 Jul 10, 2018 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 8246688)
Wow, you really are out of touch. Here goes:

Already addressed by Steely above

Already preserved and incorporated into a highrise apartment building that probably has wrapped up construction

Already done years ago. Redesigned, and retail storefronts now largely facing the street

No I’m not.

I’m not talking about the couple of buildings along the river. I’m talking about the surface lots and under-utilized land closer to the expressway.

Which are already preserved? There are lots of 19th century brick buildings in the area.

And if they’ve already rehabbed Presidential Towers, then they did a shitty fucking job. There’s still a blank wall on two sides of that parking garage, and so on. I walked past it on the way to dinner last fall.

k1052 Jul 11, 2018 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Lurker (Post 8247108)
Some tenants operate in the real world where there are unfortunately automobiles and expressways and they may even DESIRE to be closer to the expressway.

Literally not a consideration I ever hear when talking to people about office leasing downtown. Distance to train station/transit? Sure. Hot hood with bars/food/entertainment so companies can attract the younger skilled employees they need? Yup. Must be next to a highway off ramp and major artery belching exhaust? Nope. Firm Nope.

AlpacaObsessor Jul 11, 2018 1:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 8246675)
It's a weird zone of desirability, not prestigious enough for marquee office towers compared to riverside or Wacker Drive sites, but too close to the CBD and too business-like for a real residential boom.

So, we get a slow trickle of the so-called "econoboxes" that aim for cost-conscious corporations who don't want to pay top-dollar rents, and a slow trickle of residential towers from people who want to be close to work but don't demand a bunch of amenities right outside the door.

^this

Here's a quote from a Crain's article published a few months ago about 625 W Adam's struggle to find tenants

Quote:

"It's going to be great for somebody, it's just not where everybody is looking," said Ari Klein, a tenant rep at brokerage Cushman & Wakefield who has toured 625 W. Adams with clients. "One could argue really well that it's somewhat off the beaten path today."

Location may be the biggest challenge for the property. The building is separated by the Kennedy Expressway from the heart of the West Loop's popular restaurant and office core. While it is close to Union Station, the area between Metra and the highway has yet to prove itself as an office hub, making leasing more difficult."

10023 Jul 11, 2018 8:09 AM

^ well it’s a better office hub than residential hub with the stations, so hopefully it stays zoned that way until the demand is there.

Still think “the 78” is far more out of the way and less desirable, so I don’t know why they think they can land big corporate tenants here.

Baronvonellis Jul 11, 2018 3:39 PM

I have to agree, how is 625 W Adams not a good location for offices? It's right on top of the metra stations! Blocks from the loop and river. The 78's location is way worse for offices. There's nothing around there. I'd much rather be at 625 W Adams.

k1052 Jul 11, 2018 4:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baronvonellis (Post 8247947)
I have to agree, how is 625 W Adams not a good location for offices? It's right on top of the metra stations! Blocks from the loop and river. The 78's location is way worse for offices. There's nothing around there. I'd much rather be at 625 W Adams.

If you're going to lease piecemeal to a bunch of companies that's true but that is not how the 78 is being marketed. They're shopping it to big corporate entities that would want millions of square feet and the ability to have it and the surroundings built to their specification. Absent that interest I think it will end up more like Lakeshore east. Either way Related will make out fine, the latter course will just take longer.

In the end it's really hard to argue that 625 Adams is a superior office location if tenants don't agree by actually leasing space. As pointed out that area is in a weird zone that isn't particularly desirable.

ardecila Jul 11, 2018 4:34 PM

^ Exactly, the proof is in the pudding. The law firms, media firms, etc that drive new construction want to be in buildings with a marquee address, dramatic architecture/setting, and proximity to transit, restaurants, etc. 625 W Adams satisfies only the transit box. The architecture isn’t even particularly good. Sometimes value-conscious corporations like Quaker, PepsiCo, USG, etc have moved to this area in an attempt to save money while remaining close to Metra. Think about the area around Penn Station in NY, which also remained an undesirable location for office until the city, Related, and other groups built up the Hudson Yards brand and hype.

Also, this section of the West Loop can’t be “zoned for office”. That’s not how the zoning code works. Downtown zoning categories are agnostic on office vs. residential. The only exception is DS, which bans residential, but that’s really more of a light industrial category for service uses or large-scale retail.

As for The 78.... it only works as an office site if a Fortune 500 level company comes in and builds their own ecosystem. It will obviously have a good Red Line connection at both ends of the site, so it is very accessible from the North Side City neighborhoods where a lot of young workers live. I’d also expect a pretty big boom in Bronzeville, especially in the former Robert Taylor Homes area close to the Red Line stop at 35th. Also some pretty serious gentrification pressure on Chinatown.

aaron38 Jul 11, 2018 8:44 PM

I agree on 625 Adams. If I was looking to relocate an office from Schaumburg to downtown, I’d park as close to Ogilvee as possible. Why do I want my workers going out to 2 hour 3 cocktail power lunches? (I eat at my desk). What do I care if there are good restuarants next door?
I’d want to minimize the commute as first priority. That maximizes my draw.

If restaurants want our business, they’ll come to the offices.

k1052 Jul 11, 2018 8:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaron38 (Post 8248280)
I agree on 625 Adams. If I was looking to relocate an office from Schaumburg to downtown, I’d park as close to Ogilvee as possible. Why do I want my workers going out to 2 hour 3 cocktail power lunches? (I eat at my desk). What do I care if there are good restuarants next door?
I’d want to minimize the commute as first priority. That maximizes my draw.

If restaurants want our business, they’ll come to the offices.

This is one of the more epic misunderstandings of modern recruitment and employee hiring strategy I've seen lately.

Also lol at how many people think 625 is a no brainer but it can't lease up. This is up there with the argument that Fulton Market isn't an office district and never will be but is getting a shit ton of office built because tenants are simply wrong.

aaron38 Jul 11, 2018 9:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8248295)
This is one of the more epic misunderstandings of modern recruitment and employee hiring strategy I've seen lately.

Also lol at how many people think 625 is a no brainer but it can't lease up. This is up there with the argument that Fulton Market isn't an office district and never will be but is getting a shit ton of office built because tenants are simply wrong.

It’s a 9 minute walk from Ogilvee.
You’re saying that modern recruitment says make my workers walk farther, take longer to get to/from work (thus reducing my draw and/or the time I can get from them) so that it’s easier for them to party during lunch (thus reducing their productivity)? LOL. Okay. Game on.

k1052 Jul 11, 2018 9:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaron38 (Post 8248308)
It’s a 9 minute walk from Ogilvee.
You’re saying that modern recruitment says make my workers walk farther, take longer to get to/from work (thus reducing my draw and/or the time I can get from them) so that it’s easier for them to party during lunch (thus reducing their productivity)? LOL. Okay. Game on.

Amazingly out of touch.

left of center Jul 11, 2018 11:03 PM

I wonder if and when the Union Station parking garage tower project gets started, if that would bring in a critical mass of workers and office tenants that would help liven up this stretch of downtown and make it more desirable for tenants, and ultimately driving demand for more office towers?

This neighborhood isn't really all that bad. Excellent transportation connections, both Metra and CTA), and honestly Randolph and Fulton aren't too much of a walk away. Randolph east of 90/94 definitely has a growing scene with quite a few good restaurants and bars; Sepia, avec, Proxi, Blackbird (which is Michelin star rated). If this section of downtown has a sleepy reputation, I think it will shed it sooner rather than later.

ardecila Jul 12, 2018 4:02 PM

^ To be fair, I think the leasing struggles at 625 West Adams are just generally indicative of how difficult it is to lease office space in Chicago. Even with a hot economy right now, office developers are still competing intensely for a relatively small number of anchor tenants and relocations, and changes in office design plus consolidations are reducing the footprint that each company occupies. If you want to fill office space, you have to be the coolest kid on the block... right now Sterling Bay is the coolest kid after landing Google and McDonalds and basically building a whole ecosystem in Fulton Market. They have the Morgan stop to bring in city workers, and they've figured out how to run private shuttle systems that bring people from Metra.

rgarri4 Jul 15, 2018 12:41 AM

Still working on detailing these.

https://images2.imgbox.com/b2/fb/HL0SYpOr_o.jpg

https://images2.imgbox.com/1d/58/GzCIHJHV_o.jpg

https://images2.imgbox.com/48/e7/5MPjF8I5_o.jpg

https://images2.imgbox.com/d1/47/xAj0BKkw_o.jpg

https://images2.imgbox.com/76/6d/admDbcvZ_o.jpg

Mr Downtown Jul 15, 2018 2:03 AM

Um, you know those are mere placeholders, right? No building will ever be built that looks like any of the ones in the renderings we've seen so far (with the possible exception of the Discovery Partners Institute, which may be far enough along in design that something real was included).

rgarri4 Jul 15, 2018 2:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown (Post 8251313)
Um, you know those are mere placeholders, right? No building will ever be built that looks like any of the ones in the renderings we've seen so far (with the possible exception of the Discovery Partners Institute, which may be far enough along in design that something real was included).

Yes. My model is full of placeholders.

HowardL Jul 15, 2018 2:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgarri4 (Post 8251318)
Yes. My model is full of placeholders.

And your model is wonderful! Those shots from the east/south east are exciting because they anticipate the impact this project will have in adding layers of interest to the southern skyline. Keep up the awesome work. We appreciate it! (and silently envy your skills)


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