One problem might be the Light Rail. There was some serious undergound utility work that took place for the construction of the light rail. My friend was an inspector through the downtown portion of the light rail construction and he told me stories of all sorts of crazy stuff they dug into underground downtown. In some cases (let's say it was an old tunnel/walkway) they cut through it, walled off the sides, and put the utility work for the light rail through. There's a chance, if the tunnel between the Ho and the adjacent block on the other side of light rail was shallow enough, they blew through it and it's not connected anymore.

Yesterday, I took my 55 fifth graders on a light rail trip downtown. We got on at Priest and Washington. We took it to the Symphony Hall stop, walked to the Science Center, and watched the cool 3-D movie on waves. We walked across the streets to TGI Friday Front Row Grill and had lunch. We got back on the rail and went to the Civic Space park where I told them all about the park and then they were in groups with digital cameras, going on an alphabet photo scavenger hunt where they had to find nouns in the park that started with each letter of the alphabet. ( A-ant, B- Bench, C- children...even X- for xeriscape!!!!) Then we got back on and took it all the way up to Central and Camelback. That ended our day. It rocked, and they had a blast. The whole way, I was telling them about city growth and sustainability (Our theme this year). They also can get extra credit if they take their parents on a Light Rail trip, type up a half page paper about it, and staple their tickets to the paper.

I remember distinctly a writeup in the paper wherein engineers discovered a tunnel under Central connecting the Westward Ho to the bowling alley/speakeasy across the street but everyone was too chicken shit to try actually see where it went--a collapse would have been rather deadly.

Ya somewhere on this forum there are pictures of the inside of that bowling alley. They were awesome.

I don't know if these were the pics you speak of, but I once took pictures through the tiles in the sidewalk (since fixed) down into the bowling alley bathrooms and posted it. I may still have them...

OK, found them, here are my pics. They aren't awesome, so I'm sure you're talking about something else. They were taken before the columns were torn down and the whole lot became surface parking:

http://members.cox.net/mmblueaz/P1000087.JPG

http://members.cox.net/mmblueaz/P1000090.JPG

http://members.cox.net/mmblueaz/P1000089.JPG

http://members.cox.net/mmblueaz/P1000091.JPG

Fail at making downtown a place where people could enjoy living car-free. There are very few places in the Phoenix metro that have that opportunity. It requires dense jobs, services, and entertainment, which in turn requires dense residential to support it. This is mathematically impossible with 2-3 story buildings, especially since people in Phoenix think they need a lot more sqft than people in other cities.

Until we can get the residential density high enough to support a fully-equipped retail/commercial density, we'll keep having to contribute massive amounts of land to storing cars.

sorry if that came across wrong: i wasn't saying to waste land, i was just saying that multiple small-footprint projects are just as good (or better) than a single large-footprint project on the same land.

A 25-story building taking up 25% of a block can be great (e.g. 44 Monroe). Just build more stuff on the other 75%. The land-wasting Chase bldg is obviously the anti-example.

There are probably have two or three cities (NYC, and maybe a combo of DC, SF, and Chi) in the entire US where living car free is realistic. These cities have very built out transportation systems and of which will never happen in Phoenix. Phoenix should examine what we are good at right now and build and fit a downtown into that system. Trying to force Phoenix into a NYC mold will just end in absolute failure and we would get no where. Unfortunately cars are going to be part of our future no matter how we look at it but we can integrate this by building better and smarter garages which interact with the street.

What Phoenix does have is a great sense of community. I compare this to area like Dupont Circle, Adams Morgan, Georgetown, etc. in DC and Lincoln Park, Wicker Park, Wrigleyville in Chicago. All areas with lower densities. Phoenix has CenPho, Arcadia and Roosevelt Row. All but Roosevelt Square are doing very well. For some reason though, the key players that have a say in Downtown Phoenix seem like they ignore Roosevelt Row. Build upon Roosevelt Row's community strength and you will get success.

Denser entertainment, amenities and services does not equal better attraction for residents. I actually think of the opposite. Cityscape is becoming over sterile. You don't want to fall into that trap because the local community will not support it. As I believe it was Gammage who said that Cityscape is becoming too corporate and essentially loses its identity (with chains like Lucky Strike, Five Guys, Jimmy Johns, etc.).

I think we're splitting hairs a bit with the 2-3 vs higher thing. A good mix is what will make Central PHX a walkable, urban place. I don't think PhxDowntowner is saying everything needs to be giant condo towers like 44 Monroe or Summit*.

A key thing that hasn't been brought up in this is the form of the buildings. Hopefully the Urban Form code will help with this, but we can't have any more St Croix Villas or The Met, suburban style complexes. They're walled off and just look out of place.

My neighborhood here in Boston is very walkable and we have a huge variety of densities:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/638/2story.png
2 story. This street is all 2 story duplexes. 2 story buildings can be done densely as seen here.

http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/8442/14storyj.png
About 2 blocks from me there's even a random 14 story building

http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/3459/3story.png
My block has many 3 story apartment buildings that are plenty dense

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6458/5story.png
My building is the tallest on our little street at 5 stories. Most on our street are 3 and 4 stories.

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/1589/aerialblock.png
This is an aerial of my block, its pretty dense. The only non dense area is the Mosque and its small surface lot. Downtown needs many blocks at least this level of density to succeed.

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4516/phxdensity.png
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/847/phxdensity2.png
PHX does have some pockets of good density. These are in Mid and Uptown respectively. Sadly they suffer from things like cul de sacs & don't have enough adjacent walkable retail even though their densities would support it.


I'd love to see the neighborhoods outside the 7's (Lower Grand, Capitol Mall, Garfield, Eastlake) fill their empty lots with complexes that are 2-5 stories. Anything more than that probably doesn't fit in with the neighborhood character. We need more of these in those areas:
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8977/garfieldo.png
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5097/roosevelt.png
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3480/2ndave.png
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1...tempmodern.png

The Downtown core should probably stick to 4+ story stuff, with occassional smaller stuff thrown in. Have Downtowns feeder neighborhoods focus more on the 2-4 story developments.

What we can't have is more of these sorts of developments:
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5703/mets.png
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/719/stcroix.png

They thing is filling up the dirt lots. If 25% or so of the buildings are 2-3 story, thats probably an OK mix.

*which btw, is this going to become apartments now too? Seems like whoever is in control over there would be wise to rent the empty units until the condo market comes back in a few years.

I'm not defending St Croix's regrettable suburban form, but make sure to realize that it better utilizes its land than Artisan Village does. (30 units/acre vs 22 units/acre.) And in fact way down the road, when/if downtown achieves an environment that marginalizes the need for a car, St Croix's 1/2 acre parking lot could be sold off for more development (which would raise St Croix's density to 40 units/acre). I don't think that's really possible with Artisan Village.

Form alone, is not enough. Density alone, is not enough. In order to make a healthy, vibrant urban area that allows a critical mass of people to ditch their cars (which CAN happen for select parts of Phoenix along the LR), we must build high-density w/ good ped-friendly form. Not just one or the other.

Unrelated: the SkyTrain progress is making me hawt. :banana:

I've always considered Roosevelt Square a success -- not only in terms of creating a genuine pedestrian-friendly area from Central to Third Avenue, but also in terms of occupancy rates. Am I missing something?

One reason key players ignore Roosevelt Row is that it lies north of the historic northern boundary of Downtown, which was Fillmore. Keep in mind that the Downtown Phoenix Partnership is based on an assessment district that extends only that far north (with the exception of a special contractual arrangement with the Downtown Phoenix Public Market, a block north of Fillmore on Pierce).

I think it's no coincidence that some of the most exciting and entrepreneurial activity has occured outside the area that the Parternship and other "big project" advocates have focused on. South of Fillmore, the focus is on sports, concerts, and conventions. North of there, the focus is more on unique business that are destinations on their own.

Ugh... There've been a few times on my way to work in the morning when a crapload of elementary school students piled on the light rail for a field trip.. Great for the kids, but hell for me when all I wanna do is sleep on my way to work lol

Did anyone else see the column by Max Jarman in the Republic on Sunday? It says that Whole Foods is scouting for a location in Central Phoenix and that they've looked at the former Linen's 'n Things at Town & Country. Also, it mentions Nordstrom Rack looking at that location, too.

Those, especially Whole Foods would be a huge coup. Even though we all have dreams of a Whole Foods downtown, they're not crazy and they're going to go where the real money is and the Biltmore has it. Not to mention, cheap retail space. They would probably renovate the hell out of that space and really make it something special. Also, renovating and adding quality tenants to T & C would really help that center which has had very high vacancy for the past few years.

And whole foods is known for opening near trader joes

Whoops, meant to say Roosevelt Row is not doing as well compared to CenPho and Arcadia (not Roosevelt Square).

Can people please stop calling it 'CenPho'? Abbreviated neighborhood names are so trite and overdone, especially when those areas haven't been historically called that.

What's wrong with downtown?

Almost as bad as the strange people who are pushing to call everything between downtown and Century City in LA 'West Central'. It's just lame.

Central Phoenix... Happy? The fact that the area has re-invented/branded itself speaks volumes about the development of the area. As people have already said, Central between Indian School and Missouri has become a real place of life. From the coffee shops, unique restaurants and shopping this area has propelled itself into the forefront of what it takes for urban success.



In other news...

http://downtowndevil.com/2011/05/02/...wn-campus-src/

Talk about redundancy. That land should be used for new housing that way talked about in Gordon's last speech.

Thank you x's 5 million. Anyone who says "cenpho" i just assume is a waterhead or they want Vietnamese Beef soup.

I agree with this too and cannot imagine people actually saying this in person...I mean do people really say "Hey, let's meet in CenPho tonight?" Sounds retarded as hell. Like Plinko said, what's wrong with downtown or midtown?

I agree x100. It sounds gay as hell...