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-   -   Phoenix Development News (3) (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=173764)

Leo the Dog Nov 18, 2009 5:14 PM

Don,
Thank you for posting that. People in AZ are still living in fantasy land. Sometimes the truth hurts a little.

The only reason the growth may be stable is because natural births are higher than natural deaths here. Thats it.

PHX31 Nov 18, 2009 5:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4565000)
Don,
Thank you for posting that. People in AZ are still living in fantasy land. Sometimes the truth hurts a little.

That's not the truth at all. "Detroit in the Desert?" "Surrounded by miles of those subdivisions". A picture of a rotten pool that's obviously no where near Phoenix (unless Phoenix suddenly moved to the Florida Keys or Hawaii).

Compare Detroit's unemployment to Phoenix's unemployment. Compare anything you want. That post is nothing but someone that gets their jollies from sadomasochism.

Leo the Dog Nov 18, 2009 5:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX31 (Post 4565030)
That's not the truth at all. "Detroit in the Desert?" "Surrounded by miles of those subdivisions". A picture of a rotten pool that's obviously no where near Phoenix (unless Phoenix suddenly moved to the Florida Keys).

Compare Detroit's unemployment to Phoenix's unemployment. Compare anything you want. That post is nothing but someone that gets their jollies from sadomasochism.

I think the decline of Phoenix's economy is just entering the tip of the iceberg. The over-reliance on a growth based economy over many decades is really going to hurt this region. Did you read the article about the state borrowing money from lenders for the first time in history to cover the $2B shortfall just for the fiscal year. The state is digging itself into a deeper hole as it'll have to pay that off at interest in the future. Where is that money going to come from considering we can't pay for it now...hmm.

Considering how bad it is in CA right now, isn't it amazing that AZ isn't having a huge influx of Californians trying to find jobs here? (Considering that pop. is flat since 07).

As for unemployment rates, yeah we do luckily have a relatively low-rate, but the quality of jobs here are below average. Education levels are low and not surprisingly income levels are low. Despite our low cost of living, this area has a difficult time attracting a well educated workforce with high paying jobs.

Lets not pretend that Phoenix wasn't one of the hardest hit regions in the nation. Time to step out of fantasy land.

vwwolfe Nov 18, 2009 6:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwonger06 (Post 4563931)
Sounds like BS on the hotel + office combo at OCPE unless we are talking about 7+ years down the road. The downtown office market is already saturated, (empty OCPE, CityScape not full, and Luhrs is still completely empty even though its been on the market for over a year).

Are you a complete idiot? He wasn't talking about a new building on the OCPE site. He was talking about the lower floors of the current building being hotel and the upper floors office.

bwonger06 Nov 18, 2009 8:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwwolfe (Post 4565174)
Are you a complete idiot? He wasn't talking about a new building on the OCPE site. He was talking about the lower floors of the current building being hotel and the upper floors office.




Quote:

Originally Posted by gymratmanaz (Post 4563312)
Here is a scoop. I was told by the architect of OCPE that the lower floors of OCPE will have a boutique hotel, with the upper floors having offices.


ohh mis-read (my mistake, i remember a few post about a week ago talking about a new hotel on the same OCPE block). but wow, talk about totally making one thing into something different. I am not a architect, but seems like something that would waste a lot of money (hotel floors are shorter than commercial), and they already sunk the cost to build taller floors although the building is still a shell, but i guess desperate times call for desperate measures.

gymratmanaz Nov 18, 2009 9:32 PM

Wouldn't you like a boutique hotel to have distinctive rooms with tall or vaulted ceilings? Could be very classy!!!!!

PHX NATIVE 929 Nov 18, 2009 9:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4565064)
I think the decline of Phoenix's economy is just entering the tip of the iceberg. The over-reliance on a growth based economy over many decades is really going to hurt this region. Did you read the article about the state borrowing money from lenders for the first time in history to cover the $2B shortfall just for the fiscal year. The state is digging itself into a deeper hole as it'll have to pay that off at interest in the future. Where is that money going to come from considering we can't pay for it now...hmm.

Considering how bad it is in CA right now, isn't it amazing that AZ isn't having a huge influx of Californians trying to find jobs here? (Considering that pop. is flat since 07).

As for unemployment rates, yeah we do luckily have a relatively low-rate, but the quality of jobs here are below average. Education levels are low and not surprisingly income levels are low. Despite our low cost of living, this area has a difficult time attracting a well educated workforce with high paying jobs.

Lets not pretend that Phoenix wasn't one of the hardest hit regions in the nation. Time to step out of fantasy land.

Incredibly, $2 billion is merely a drop in the bucket compared to the nearly $12 TRILLION debt we're approaching as a country. But hey, we're winning Nobel Peace prizes....

dtnphx Nov 18, 2009 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 (Post 4565672)
Incredibly, $2 billion is merely a drop in the bucket compared to the nearly $12 TRILLION deficit we're approaching as a country. But hey, we're winning Nobel Peace prizes....

Thanks, that was useful. Drink another glass of half full.... :tup:

PhxPavilion Nov 19, 2009 7:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 (Post 4565672)
Incredibly, $2 billion is merely a drop in the bucket compared to the nearly $12 TRILLION deficit we're approaching as a country. But hey, we're winning Nobel Peace prizes....

Yeah yeah, you like to blame everything on the opposing party and ignore the Bush era, we get it.

gymratmanaz Nov 19, 2009 12:46 PM

PHX Native 929....you are a broken record when it comes to your politics.

Meanwhile back to Phoenix construction topics.......

mwadswor Nov 19, 2009 4:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 (Post 4565672)
Incredibly, $2 billion is merely a drop in the bucket compared to the nearly $12 TRILLION deficit we're approaching as a country. But hey, we're winning Nobel Peace prizes....

Check your reading/listening comprehension, that's a $12 trillion dollar debt, not deficit. The national deficit (how much we're short this year) is certainly too high, but the national debt has been accumulating since Andrew Jackson was president (really since the revolutionary war, but Jackson managed to briefly eliminate it).

While it is a cause for concern at certain levels for macroeconomic reasons, it does not affect the country like your personal debt affects you. People who scream about "common sense" politics and try to equate government budgets with personal budgets simply do not understand how economics and national monetary policy work. Here's common sense for you: this country has had a large national debt through all political parties, recessions, depressions, economic booms, war, and peace. There have even been economists that have argued that some level of national debt is good for the economy.

Long story short, while there are reasons to be concerned about the national debt, it is simply incorrect to equate a large national debt with the country being broke. And it's completely inane to blame the national debt on any political party: they've all had a hand in creating it. Contrary to popular logic about democrats and budgets, since 1980 the Clinton years actually saw by far the lowest growth of the national debt.

Leo the Dog Nov 19, 2009 4:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 (Post 4565672)
Incredibly, $2 billion is merely a drop in the bucket compared to the nearly $12 TRILLION deficit we're approaching as a country. But hey, we're winning Nobel Peace prizes....

Exactly.

Quote:

Yeah yeah, you like to blame everything on the opposing party and ignore the Bush era, we get it.
As soon as people realize that both parties are to blame, then we'll start solving some problems.

Leo the Dog Nov 19, 2009 5:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwadswor (Post 4567036)
Check your reading/listening comprehension, that's a $12 trillion dollar debt, not deficit. The national deficit (how much we're short this year) is certainly too high, but the national debt has been accumulating since Andrew Jackson was president (really since the revolutionary war, but Jackson managed to briefly eliminate it).

While it is a cause for concern at certain levels for macroeconomic reasons, it does not affect the country like your personal debt affects you. People who scream about "common sense" politics and try to equate government budgets with personal budgets simply do not understand how economics and national monetary policy work. Here's common sense for you: this country has had a large national debt through all political parties, recessions, depressions, economic booms, war, and peace. There have even been economists that have argued that some level of national debt is good for the economy.

Long story short, while there are reasons to be concerned about the national debt, it is simply incorrect to equate a large national debt with the country being broke. And it's completely inane to blame the national debt on any political party: they've all had a hand in creating it. Contrary to popular logic about democrats and budgets, since 1980 the Clinton years actually saw by far the lowest growth of the national debt.


1791-2002 It took the US all of these years to accumulate $5.98 Trillion debt. (This included civil war, and 2 world wars, cold war, 9/11 etc...)
2002 Debt = 5.98 Trillion
2009 Debt = 12 Trillion
Next Year = 14-15 Trillion

But don't worry, the $1T healthcare bill is "deficit neutral".

CANUC Nov 19, 2009 6:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4567053)
1791-2002 It took the US all of these years to accumulate $5.98 Trillion debt. (This included civil war, and 2 world wars, cold war, 9/11 etc...)
2002 Debt = 5.98 Trillion
2009 Debt = 12 Trillion
Next Year = 14-15 Trillion

But don't worry, the $1T healthcare bill is "deficit neutral".

Uhg, your talking points are getting old go back and get new ones.

Leo the Dog Nov 19, 2009 7:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CANUC (Post 4567253)
Uhg, your talking points are getting old go back and get new ones.

Really? That was the first time I posted that.

Vicelord John Nov 19, 2009 7:03 PM

Im tired of reading about politics. Please stfu.

PHX NATIVE 929 Nov 19, 2009 7:21 PM

I should have known not to say anything that might rile up the ultra-defensive, mindless Obama Zombies. My apologies to all of the libbies on this left-wing dominated board. I aways forget that politics is unwanted here when it comes with any right-wing point of view.

No matter, Combusean will surely come along to scrub things up for you shortly.

CANUC Nov 19, 2009 7:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4567279)
Really? That was the first time I posted that.

No, in general it wasn’t.

Politics Software Program:

First Release = Phoenix 929 v.1.0

Second Release = Leo the Dog v.2.0

Phoenix, Whaa Software:

First Release = Soleri v.1.0

Second Release = Don B v.2.0

Third Release = Leo the Dog v.3.0

See, its repetitive and still the same software.

note: Updated patch: Phoenix 929 v.1.1

PHX NATIVE 929 Nov 19, 2009 7:33 PM

:previous:

Was that an attempt at humor?

Stick to Dungeons and Dragons.

Vicelord John Nov 19, 2009 7:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glynnjamin (Post 4562731)
So the SE Corner of 7th Ave & McDowell will have a Smashburger, Ace Hardware, and the Pita Jungle that was supposed to go into Gold Spot.

You were right, i apologize. Saw the Smashburger sign today.

glynnjamin Nov 19, 2009 9:06 PM

I'll accept that I'm right when the fucker gets built...

Smashbuger is also going in somewhere around 24th & Camelback. Don't have an exact location yet but probably near the Culvers on Camelback.

gymratmanaz Nov 19, 2009 9:25 PM

Smashburger....talk to me. I love the name. How is the food and all??? I have never heard of the place.

glynnjamin Nov 19, 2009 9:36 PM

There is one in Tempe just south of the Veterans LRT stop. It is pretty damn good, IMHO. The meat is pretty salty though. Just a basic burger joint though. http://www.smashburger.com/menu_main.php

pbenjamin Nov 19, 2009 9:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glynnjamin (Post 4563165)
What does that have to do with my credibility?

In any event, Smashburger has confirmed that they are going there. Hell, their logo is on the damn sign. It was over a year ago that someone on here said Pita Jungle was going into Gold Spot and that still hasn't happened. It wouldn't surprise me to see them move up the street but I'm not really sure why they would. As far as an Ace goes - downtown needs a hardware store, just wish it was more in town.

The only other piece of information I got from him was that the refurb project would start in January and should be finished by "summer". If the antique place is out by December, maybe there is some truth.

Im just passing the info along.

So you are saying that the building will be refurbished and that at least 4 businesses (Pita Jungle, Smashburger, Ace and whatever was left for them to quote you a price on) will go in there? Seems awfully small for that, particularly for an Ace Hardware. Sound like a great addition to the neighborhood though.

PhxMatt Nov 20, 2009 12:48 AM

I read somewhere recently that Smashburger was opening at 20th Street and Camelback... Maybe Colonade or Town and Country...?

Culvers is going up on 8th Steet and Camelback.

HX_Guy Nov 20, 2009 4:37 AM

Kick ass!

Quote:

Local businesses finally scoring

Nov. 20, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

A bit more than a year ago, downtown Phoenix business owners wondered out loud where all the Arizona State University students were. There may have been more than 8,000 registered for classes downtown, they said, but they weren't showing up in their shops and restaurants.

One year later . . . check that concern. Parts of downtown, particularly the region north of the downtown ASU campus, are being overrun with Sun Devils.

Or perhaps it is simply young people in general. Whoever these kids are, they are beginning to swarm throughout central Phoenix in impressive numbers at last.

The most notable demonstration of the blossoming of the central city continues to be the First Friday events, of course.

On Nov. 5, the city closed off East Roosevelt from North Central Avenue to Seventh Street to traffic for the first time, allowing the throngs of attendees to overflow the streets without fear of automobiles.

The growing First Friday crowds and the widening ASU footprint have attracted entrepreneurs like Kyle Simone and Jeff Mann to open shops like their Phoenicia Association, a combination men's clothier and art gallery.

The youth traffic persuaded restaurateur Wade Moises to open the popular PastaBAR at First Street and Pierce Street, in the same building with Sens Asian Tapas and the now popular Irish bar Turf.

First Friday itself is expanding exponentially. When the event began 15 years ago, 13 art galleries collaborated in busing patrons between Grand Avenue and Roosevelt Street. Now, more than 100 galleries and other businesses participate, and the event itself has expanded into Heritage Square.

Yes, the Valley's central city is lurching in many respects, like all parts of this economically ravaged region. But to witness the kind of growth that we are seeing now, in this economy, is delightfully counterintuitive.

By rights, the new downtown farmers market should not be overflowing with customers in an economic downturn as fierce as this one. But on Saturdays, especially, it is choked with shoppers.

Once upon a time, the tiny, tasty Matt's Big Breakfast was an anomaly. An outpost attraction in a desert of empty buildings and weedy lots. Now, lines of customers snake out of numerous downtown restaurants that seem to be sprouting regularly out of downtown's bank of old buildings, especially as the weather cools.

A year ago, business owners were wondering out loud where all the ASU students were.

"We definitely hope that it will get better," one said.

In many surprising respects, it has. Even in these tough economic times, downtown - of all places - is beginning to thrive.

glynnjamin Nov 20, 2009 5:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbenjamin (Post 4567619)
So you are saying that the building will be refurbished and that at least 4 businesses (Pita Jungle, Smashburger, Ace and whatever was left for them to quote you a price on) will go in there? Seems awfully small for that, particularly for an Ace Hardware. Sound like a great addition to the neighborhood though.

I dont know if you've ever been in that antique shop but it is huge. That alone is more than enough for an Ace. The Japanese place is huge as well and has a front and rear entrance. It is supposed to be split in half and house two places. Then, there is the cleaners spot that faces 7th. That is supposed to be the fourth spot. That's what the guy showed me. He said the Smashburger would face McDowell, Pita Jungle would face 7th, and the available space would face the parking lot (south). Obviously he hasn't be able to move it because it won't have much street-side exposure. His drawings show a similar tower to the one across the street with the Pei Wei. Wish I could copy it but he just brought it with him to our meeting so I had no way to copy it. I told him I heard that Pita Jungle was going into Gold Spot with Lola's and he said "those rumors are flat out wrong" but he did seem a bit defensive.

Honestly, I don't know anymore. The way he's trying to snake oil me with the other lot, I'm beginning to believe this space will get refurbished in late 2010, not January.

AZ KID Nov 20, 2009 5:27 AM

Wonderful article

gymratmanaz Nov 20, 2009 5:36 AM

Awesome Awesome Awesome!!!

nickkoto Nov 20, 2009 6:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gymratmanaz (Post 4567589)
Smashburger....talk to me. I love the name. How is the food and all??? I have never heard of the place.

I gave the Smashburger in Tempe a try.

I guess it's OK, but the Chuckbox is still way better, they're only about a minute's walk away from each other, and you can expect to spend about $2 more in Smashburger. I see no reason to go back.

HX_Guy Nov 21, 2009 2:13 AM

http://nitnelav.com/Campus.jpg

UA in talks with Phoenix to build $140M center on downtown campus
Phoenix Business Journal - by Angela Gonzales

After searching for the past few years for a hospital partner to develop a $140 million cancer center on the Phoenix Biomedical Campus, the [CompanyWatch allows you to receive email alerts with stories related to your companies of interest. University of Arizona is moving ahead on its own.

UA is talking with the city about building a five-story, 250,000-square-foot structure on or near the downtown campus.

Such a facility would join the ranks of Mayo Hospital in north Phoenix, Cancer Treatment Centers of America in Goodyear and the planned Banner Health-University of Texas [CompanyWatch allows you to receive email alerts with stories related to your companies of interest. <p>You can watch up to ten companies at a time.</p>] M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Gilbert, adding to the Valley’s growing cachet as a cancer research and treatment hub.

Dr. William Crist, UA vice president for health affairs, said he is in preliminary discussions with Phoenix officials to build on city land.

“We haven’t got the details worked out,” he said. “We’ve got quite a lot of people interested in helping with this. There are a lot of people affected by cancer.”

Crist hopes to raise money from the private sector and work with the city to borrow money to fund the center.

Phoenix Mayor Phil Gor­don said it is too early to say how much money would be raised from the private sector and how much would be borrowed.

“We are working on some exciting new financing vehicles to ensure that the cancer center, which has always been part of the original biomedical campus concept, is accelerated substantially,” Gordon said. “I’m working on this with federal agencies, with private individuals, with pharmaceutical and drug companies and foundations, and others to add to the biomedical campus.”

Banner Health had been a potential partner to develop a hospital with UA on the Biomedical Campus, but those talks ended in 2007. Banner turned instead to University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center to jointly develop a cancer center on the Banner Gateway Medical Center campus in Gilbert. Plans for that facility call for breaking ground Dec. 1 and opening in 2011, said Banner spokesman Bill Byron.

Meanwhile, Crist continues to discuss UA’s relationship with Maricopa Integrated Health System, which for several years has indicated an interest in building a replacement hospital for Maricopa Medical Center near the Phoenix Bio­medical Campus.

“There’s no question MIHS is interested in building a new hospital,” said Betsey Bayless, CEO of MIHS. “The focus of our conversation with the (UA) medical school is what’s our relationship going to be. That’s still where we are.”

Crist said he would like to see MIHS build a hospital near the campus, which houses the Translational Genomics Research Institute and the UA College of Medicine-Phoenix, in partnership with Arizona State University.

“That talk continues,” he said. “We’re very excited about that.”

He said a new MIHS hospital would complement the UA outpatient cancer treatment center, which would not have any patient beds.

The proposed cancer center would offer initial consultations, outpatient surgery, chemotherapy, radiation and opportunities to participate in clinical trials for new drugs and treatments.

“We will be interacting with a number of hospitals in our work on cancer,” Crist said.

The Arizona Cancer Center at UA’s Tucson campus is the only one in the state designated by the National Cancer Institute as a Comprehensive Cancer Center, offering world-renowned translational research programs and patient care.

Crist said the Phoenix center would be an extension of the Tucson facility, sharing its NCI designation. The Phoenix location would be focused heavily on research, working in conjunction with scientists at TGen, Arizona State University and local hospitals.

In the past few years, UA’s relationship with Scottsdale Healthcare has diminished because that hospital is beefing up its relationship with Mayo’s cancer program, Crist said.

“We’re still on good terms with Scottsdale,” he said. “They had more things going on in certain studies with Mayo.”

HX_Guy Nov 21, 2009 2:25 AM

Finally a rendering of the aloft hotel that was supposed to go in at Central/Adams. I think the project is dead...they didn't meet any of the deadlines and the permit on the city's website has disappeared.

This is from the Fourth Quarter 2009 Downtown Activity Report released by the city...so who knows...

http://nitnelav.com/aloft1.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/aloft2.jpg

HooverDam Nov 21, 2009 2:32 AM

Damn that Aloft wouldve really been nice there. With their XYZ lounges and stuff they usually do it wouldve also added another nightlife sort of component to the core.

Its interesting that the (very early) renderings of the new UA medical buildings show them not continuing the current metal and concrete style of the existing biomed campus.

PHX31 Nov 21, 2009 4:24 AM

I mirror what HooverDam has said about the aloft. And I can't believe they aren't following through. It seems like the hotels are doing very well downtown, especially with the conventions.

Don B. Nov 22, 2009 2:33 PM

^ Perhaps the issue is financing? Or, fear that Arizona's tourism industry is over-saturated and exhausted? Certainly numbers are way down all across the board on tourism...

--don

HX_Guy Nov 22, 2009 6:31 PM

Sonoma is closing down, to be replaced by The Breakfast Joynt, another 7am-3pm eatery.
They have another location in North Scottsdale off Raintree and the 101.

Edit: Apparently Sonoma will stay open for dinner, or at least that's what the people over on Yelp are saying... http://www.yelp.com/topic/phoenix-br...joynt-downtown

http://nitnelav.com/DTNov222009/1.jpg

Vicelord John Nov 22, 2009 8:05 PM

sonoma was awful, and unfortunately places in Phoenix without even on street parking are going to fail, miserably. There are two parking spaces metered out front but hard to get to for most feeble minded Phoenicians.

vertex Nov 22, 2009 9:00 PM

...

CraftTeutonic Nov 22, 2009 11:01 PM

hey everyone awhile back azcentral.com posted an article about the governments plans for the region in the next 50 years. it seemed like a really horrible plan that would allow unchecked population and urban land growth with increased freeways. i was wondering if any of you could provide a link to it because i can't seem to find it. thanks

Don B. Nov 23, 2009 3:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX31 (Post 4565030)
That's not the truth at all. "Detroit in the Desert?" "Surrounded by miles of those subdivisions". A picture of a rotten pool that's obviously no where near Phoenix (unless Phoenix suddenly moved to the Florida Keys or Hawaii).

Compare Detroit's unemployment to Phoenix's unemployment. Compare anything you want. That post is nothing but someone that gets their jollies from sadomasochism.

Other sources back up my version of the reality:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...ation0107.html

Phoenix may be losing people

by Michael Clancy and Casey Newton - Jan. 12, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

For the first time in modern history, Phoenix's population could be shrinking.

It's an idea that would have been unimaginable just a few years ago, when Phoenix was surging up the list of the nation's most populous cities. Now, a variety of indicators suggest that fewer people are living here than a year ago.

No one knows for sure exactly how many people have moved in or out. But with the 2010 census about to get under way, some indicators suggest Phoenix's population may be smaller than the
projected 1,636,170 people.

City records show declining trends in several key areas. Among them:

• Foreclosure numbers have skyrocketed, meaning fewer city homes are occupied.

• Water hookups are down, suggesting the same.

• Some aspects of trash collection have ebbed because fewer people are buying things that produce waste.

• Crime has declined across the city while police are getting fewer calls for services, a possible indicator of fewer people.

• Sales-tax revenues are likely to drop for the second year in a row, with this year's collections off almost 8 percent from last year.

Experts say each trend can be explained in part by other factors, such as the national recession and the bursting of the housing bubble. When consumer spending decreases, so do tax revenues and the amount of trash that people throw away. Still, an Arizona Republic analysis of the trends suggests Phoenix has anywhere from a few hundred to several thousand people fewer than projected.

"I think the number is minor, but with all these indicators moving down, I think it is real," said City Manager Frank Fairbanks, declining to speculate of the number of people the city may have lost.

Several factors could be behind a population loss, Fairbanks and others say. The state law requiring employers to verify immigration status of their workers is believed to have driven many immigrants out of the state in 2008. The regional decline in construction jobs also could be behind an exodus.

Statewide, growth has slowed to a crawl. A population report released in December showed Arizona grew by 1.6 percent, or about 100,000 residents, in the previous fiscal year - less than half the growth rate of two years prior. But the possibility that Phoenix has declined relative to other cities has leaders worried.

Tax revenue at risk

Losing any fraction of the city's population could mean less revenue to Phoenix from the state.

Arizona shares 15 percent of its income-tax collections with cities based on those cities' population.

Phoenix's population now represents about 30 percent of Arizona's population. This year, Phoenix got $435 million from the state. That made up 38.7 percent of the city's general fund.

Assuming that the suburbs maintain or grow their current populations, Phoenix's share of revenue from the state could shrink in coming years, compounding the city's budget crisis.

Phoenix already is facing cuts of $270 million, or more than 22 percent, from its budget this year. The city is weighing cuts from community centers, senior centers, libraries, police and fire protection, and other services.

"It's an important, pressing issue for all of our cities here, but Phoenix probably most of all," said Rita Walton, who monitors population for the Maricopa Association of Governments. "They're the biggest and stand to lose the most."

The evidence

Several indicators exist showing that the population could be declining. Among them:

• Water: The number of water-using accounts fell about 5,600 from fiscal 2007-08 to 2008-09. The number of accounts using no water almost doubled, on average, meaning those homes still have water connections but are probably empty.

Tracking population by water hookups is "a good way of watching for population change," said Steve Doig, a journalism professor at Arizona State University who used a similar method to track the return of people to southern Florida after Hurricane Andrew.

Evidence about the increasing number of water accounts using no water and the decreasing number of accounts generally indicates population decline.

• Trash: Trash collection dropped 2 percent overall from fiscal year 2006-07 to 2007-08. While the amount of recyclable material picked up increased slightly, bulk-trash pickup dropped almost 15 percent during the same period.

Dennis Hoffman, professor of economics at the W. P. Carey School of Business at ASU, said trash collections, just like electrical and water hookups, frequently are used to gauge more precise population shifts than a census provides.

• Foreclosures: Bank repossessions of homes continue to increase. The key areas of decline are in the western part of the city. Phoenix overall had a staggering 534 percent increase in foreclosures in the first half of 2008, or an increase of about 5,000 additional homes in foreclosure compared with the first half of 2007. Figures for the last half of the year are not yet available.

• Taxes: Sales-tax collections have declined dramatically. Although not tied to growth as directly as water hookups, increases in sales-tax collections began slowing in 2006-07, then dropped in the next two years.

Hoffman said that since the retail sector thrives on population growth, it is reasonable to conclude that with the retail sector in so much trouble, declining sales-tax revenue could correlate to declining population.

• Crime: Phoenix saw violent crime decrease 0.3 percent last year, along with a 0.3 percent decrease in total property crimes. Crime has continued to fall in 2008, records show. In addition, Phoenix police have had fewer calls for service this year than last year, Police Chief Jack Harris said. Growing populations almost always result in more calls to police.

Hope ahead?

Not everyone is pessimistic. Mayor Phil Gordon expressed skepticism at the idea of a shrinking city.

"The growth of Phoenix, like all cities in the Valley, has slowed significantly. But Phoenix's net growth is still positive, both in jobs and population," he said.

Gordon said the city is poised to resume steady growth as soon as the economy emerges from the current recession.

"When the recovery comes, we will be better positioned to recover faster and take advantage of it than many other cities locally and throughout the U.S. The world and the nation know Phoenix.... Whether it's national or international, we're first on the list of cities to invest in as the economy turns."

--don

dtnphx Nov 23, 2009 9:47 PM

Don. You have an extraordinarily jaded thought process and continue to believe that the world is not only flat, but it is flat because it is trying to somehow upsurp your life goals in some way. Citing an AZ Republic article as your proof that this city is done for is kinda weak. One can look at other data that would show we didn't lose population at all and how it will again grow once people in other places can sell their homes and then move here. Jobs will come back and people will move here again, too. If you think it can't and won't happen in a place like Phoenix, then you must believe the whole nation is doomed. Right now, things suck. At some point they will suck less. Then not suck. Sucking can be good :yes: but enough, now.

gymratmanaz Nov 23, 2009 10:17 PM

WOW- well said. Who knew there was a moral to any story so involved with "Sucking" ?

Vicelord John Nov 23, 2009 10:22 PM

depends on what type of sucking. I knew a girl in high school that a couple guys really learn a hard lesson from... that shit never goes away.

Different moral.

dtnphx Nov 24, 2009 11:08 PM

From COP Website
http://phoenix.gov/news/112309award.html

Phoenix's Civic Space Park Wins Prestigious National Design Award

Nov. 23, 2009

The city of Phoenix’s Civic Space Park has earned a coveted national award for Landscape/Urban Design. The park was the “Best of 2009” winner in the Engineering News-Record’s annual awards of notable design and construction from throughout the country.

Civic Space Park entered the national competition because it was named the regional winner in the Landscape/Urban Design category by Southwest Contractor magazine. Civic Space Park beat out 10 other regional winners in the Landscape/Urban Design category. The Engineer News Record (enr.com) is a major trade publication for the design and construction industries.

Civic Space Park, developed as a partnership between community members, the city of Phoenix and Arizona State University, utilizes sustainable design techniques to generate power, keep the area cool and capture rain water. Sustainable park features include:


Solar panels on the park’s shade structures will generate 75 kilowatts of power (enough to power 8-9 residential homes) to offset the park’s lighting and electrical needs.
Extensive shade; more than 70 percent of the park’s surface area will be shaded when its trees and vegetation reach maturity.
Hard surfaces made with pervious concrete and pavers that reduce heat reflection and allow rainfall to seep through. Water passing through the pervious concrete and pavers will enter an underground rainfall collection system that allows water not used by the park’s plants to seep naturally back into the ground.
Trees planted with a system that utilizes grates and specially engineered soils to protect roots, minimize compaction and allow ample room for root expansion.


The park also houses the A.E. England building, named for the business formerly housed there. The building houses Fair Trade Café in its storefront retail space on the basement level. The building also offers space for meetings, presentations, small banquets, art events, classes, offices and restrooms. Arizona State University and the Phoenix Parks and Recreation Department will collaborate to manage and program the building.

HX_Guy Nov 25, 2009 12:21 AM

Students design projects for vacant Phoenix lots

Low-cost ideas, including the construction of planter boxes, to transform vacant lots in downtown Phoenix for temporary use until their development, will be presented at 11 a.m. Dec. 8 on the Arizona State University Downtown Phoenix campus.

The multimedia presentation of research models was developed by university students in an urban design practice class taught by Nan Ellin, an associate professor and director of the planning program in the School of Geographical Sciences and Urban Planning in ASU's College of Liberal Arts and Sciences. She also is an affiliate faculty member with ASU's School of Sustainability.

"In 2000, the Phoenix metropolitan area contained 42.6 percent vacant land, significantly higher than most American cities," said Pei Zhai, a doctoral student in sustainability.

"To address this vexing challenge, the office of the mayor requested that ASU students develop a model for the temporary use of publicly-owned vacant lots," explained Ellin.

"In response, students developed the Desert TULIP - Temporary Urban Laboratory Infill Project - a low-cost strategy to transform vacant lots until their development," Ellin said.

The students were asked to focus specifically on lots south of Garfield between 3rd and 6th Streets, an area designated to become part of the Phoenix Biomedical Campus.

Undergraduate and graduate students, of various backgrounds and majors, searched worldwide for city vacant lot strategies, Ellin said.

"In Phoenix, they spoke with citizens, community organizations, local businesses and city officials for input on the project. High-resolution 3-D models of Phoenix were employed to envision Desert TULIP projects; and a collaborative project constructing planter boxes was undertaken as a first step toward turning Phoenix's vacant lots into urban amenities," Ellin said.

The multimedia presentation with results from the class research, including the introduction of the demonstration planter box project, will be followed by a panel discussion that includes representatives from the city of Phoenix, the Phoenix Community Alliance, and Roosevelt Row. The presentation is scheduled from 11 a.m. to noon in the Phoenix Urban Research Laboratory, located on the 8th floor of the Security Building, southwest corner of Van Buren Street and Central Avenue.

For more information about Desert TULIP, contact Ellin at nan.ellin@asu.edu, 480-965-6160.

HooverDam Nov 25, 2009 3:14 AM

^Wow that sounds wonderful, just what we need. Lets hope something actually happens and its not just another good student design project that just sits there.

On another note, I went to the Radiate Phx meeting tonight and I think I was the only one from the forum there and boy howdy are you guys lucky you missed it. The host, this ignoramus named Taylor Hurst just ended up yelling and doing a (very shitty) monologue for about an hour and would shout down and swear at anyone trying to get a word in. I hope no one here has had the displeasure of meeting this guy, it was like watching a drunken frat boy Howard Stern wannabe try to emcee an event, it was just awful.

EDIT: VV Yah if you check out his post on that list I (I posted under my real name, Will Novak) corrected him about his claim that the Civic Space park 'has no shade'. He continues to argue with me about it, when he doesn't have a leg to stand on, its quite silly. The guy is really immature and intolerable.

NIXPHX77 Nov 25, 2009 4:13 AM

i thought about going to that but now am glad i did not. He had some list of 17 things Phx needs to do or something like that, and it seemed kind of odd and unproductive or unrealistic. but i was curious that he seemed interest in promoting the city. thanx for being the fall guy Hoover!

glynnjamin Nov 25, 2009 4:42 AM

Hoover - he called you out on Twitter. Pretty weak.

glynnjamin Nov 25, 2009 4:50 AM

on a somewhat related note - I don't really understand what the point of these groups are. UrbanAffair, Radiate, etc. I mean, they do what we do...but without focus. They have no power, they really have no numbers, and they have a disjointed voice. In other words, they get about as much accomplished as we do on here when we suggest that LRT run down Glendale or Northern (or Thomas) instead of the freeway. Sure, we all feel better for saying how it should have been done better but Simonetta isn't reading this going "dammit, they are right!" and storming off to the city counsel meeting...and he's not doing it after a Radiate mtg. I'm all for grass roots but this whole thing reminds me of college. A bunch of self-righteous hippies would get together and complain about something stupid like Nalgene making the plastic that houses animals used in lab testing. They would protest it and tell people to get rid of their bottles. As long as you didn't leave the campus, you felt like you were making a difference. Once you noticed the rest of the world didn't give a shit - the apathy set in.

HooverDam Nov 25, 2009 5:44 AM

I see where you're coming from. I guess I feel sometimes theyre generally useful because people from the city planning commissions are there and such. But really they're more useful as a means for private citizens to network, bounce ideas off each other, etc. For instance I overheard some guys today talking about a performance/venue space they want and discussing where and what type of building would be best, I mentioned a few for sale warehouses and such that I am aware of and they seemed appreciative, so I guess its good for that kinda thing.

About the Twitter thing, ah well, who cares? If you read his Tweets you can see the guy is an overgrown child. If you read what he posted on the DPJ site you can see he's ignorant, and if you saw the way he behaved tonight you know for sure the guys a tool. I mentioned what a wreck the guy was to a friend (who wasnt there tonight) and she said "Oh was it Tyler Hurst?" so the guy has a reputation that proceeds him.

Its also funny he's asking who I am considering Ive been to about twice as many of those Radiate meetings as he has, am a native, and have been active/supporting downtown shit since I got back from St Louis/college in 06. I guess when you don't wear a self promoting T-shirt with your Twitter account handle on it people don't know who you are. :/

EDIT: The whole night kinda made me want to have a Forum Meet sometime soon. It would be nice to spend a night with intelligent urban enthusiasts who can at least try to disagree without being disagreeable.


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