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-   -   CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87889)

Steely Dan Mar 29, 2019 7:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy (Post 8523112)
Great news on Air New Zealand!!

Maybe this will push Qantas and Singapore to start direct flights to ORD faster. Singapore does have cargo 747 flights and did fly the 1 stop service via Europe with a 777 a few years ago but nothing direct. Qantas has never had direct service other than blocked seats on AA. Little by little this will eat away at the west coast hubs. The 787 and A350 are international east and west coast hub busters due to their range on Asian and African routes.

" Air New Zealand Taipei and Chicago services, which both operate thrice weekly, will be upgraded to five weekly due to significant success on the routes. The upgrades will take place from the Winter. "

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/air-...seoul-flights/

with the good news comes some bad news.

Avianca is pulling out of O'hare entirely, ending non-stop service to Bogota and Guatemala City this summer.

that will leave ORD with non-stop service to only one SA city: Sao Paulo on United.

OrdoSeclorum Mar 29, 2019 8:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sentinel (Post 8523494)

Holy cow. This really drives home how much more room there's going to be in that place once it's expanded. It looks like triple the total volume from this rendering.

Steely Dan Mar 29, 2019 10:11 PM

another new international route for ORD has been approved by the USDT!

Chicago - Chengdu via Hainan Airlines.

Chengdu is deep into the interior of china. currently all of ORD's flights to china serve more coastal markets (beijing, shanghai, & hong kong).

no word on when service might start.

https://twitter.com/airlineroute/sta...816861185?s=21

galleyfox Mar 30, 2019 3:15 AM

http://studiogang.com/project/ohare-...lobal-terminal

It's interesting to see the pictures paired with the sectional diagram of the terminal.

Also, arriving and departing passengers are segregated on different levels as they go from landslide to airside and vice versa.
International arrivals travel via the second story sterile corridor to customs which is next to baggage claim, while domestic passengers travel via ground level.

It also looks like the retail roofs are doubling as the floor for the sterile corridor in some sections, but I could be seeing that wrong...

Overall, I have to say that Studio ORD's design excels at crowd control and foot traffic flow.

F1 Tommy Mar 30, 2019 2:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan (Post 8523623)
with the good news comes some bad news.

Avianca is pulling out of O'hare entirely, ending non-stop service to Bogota and Guatemala City this summer.

that will leave ORD with non-stop service to only one SA city: Sao Paulo on United.

They are chopping a lot because they are in trouble and have sold off their EMB fleet. Hope someone else replaces them on atleast 1 of these routes.


https://qcostarica.com/avianca-suspe...lombia-and-us/

bnk Mar 30, 2019 4:31 PM

...

Steely Dan Apr 1, 2019 7:45 PM

just keeping some tabs on upcoming changes in ORD's international service:



adds:

Puerto Vallarta - seasonally on Volaris (starts May 5th) - UA, AA, and Frontier all currently fly to PV seasonally from ORD

Athens - seasonally on AA (starts May 10th)

Chengdu - on Hainan (starts May 10th)

Lisbon - on TAP (starts June 1st)

Barcelona - seasonally on Norwegian (starts on june 7th) - AA currently flies to Barcelona seasonally from ORD

Querétaro, Mexico - on Volaris (starts on June 16th) - Volaris currently flies this route out of MDW, but is switching it over to ORD

Tel Aviv - on El Al (starts March 22nd, 2020)



deducts:

Bogota - Avianca (ends on May 1st)

Guatemala City - Avianca (ends on June 1st) - AA will continue to fly to Guatemala City from ORD




while the Bogota loss is not cool, on balance the new international pick-ups are a very big net positive for ORD.

J_M_Tungsten Apr 2, 2019 2:56 AM

Not an exact comparison, but you get the idea.
http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/t...B25C9233E7.jpg
Ugh, photobombed by photobucket

chiphile Apr 2, 2019 3:25 AM

Foster was my first choice because of the airfield views - I really hated Gang's design because it was all about the interior. It's a fantastic interior no doubt, but the airfield facing windows are short and it doesn't seem like aircraft will be visible from a distance unless you're at the gate. I can tolerate feeling like I'm in a mall, as long as I see the planes.

The planes that will park at terminal 2 will be the greatest feats of aviation engineering, they will be the largest planes used for international flight, and they will carry flags from all over the world.

The aircraft should be seen and celebrated - the airport is about THEM -magnificent ships that traverse the world at unimaginable speed and height. Instead, Gang made the airport about her/her team, or about trees and wood, or whatever the hell they were thinking of - but it sure wasn't aviation. Terminal 2's location near the two most active parallel runways would've been great to see simultaneous takeoffs and landings as well.

Gang missed an opportunity to capture the grandeur of aviation. As domestic flight has become a miserable experience, international trips, and the aircraft that make those trips, are the last remaining experiences in civil aviation that still carry some golden age romance to them. Studio ORD doesn't capture any of it.

https://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnb...g?v=1510065573

Via Chicago Apr 2, 2019 3:40 PM

i fully agree. Foster of all the proposals was really the only one that tried to at least rekindle and honor the romance and nostalgia of air travel, and tried to forge a connection between the traveler and what it was they were actually participating in. who needs CNN blathering at the loading gates when you can disconnect from that nonsense entirely and just enjoy the simple childlike pleasure of watching planes takeoff and land. thats why i voted for it as well. it directed itself, and the air traveler, outward rather than inward. im still fairly bummed thats not the one we'll be getting. i think it had the most potential to truly set itself apart as something really unique and showstopping on the global stage. Gang's design i just dont feel reaches those heights, and at the end of the day will just blend into the background as a "new modern terminal" in a sea of new modern terminals but without anything super declarative to say about itself, especially in the context of aviation. it ticks the boxes of everything the selection committee wanted, but dosent rise above that in the intangible way that great works of architecture do.

patrick84 Apr 2, 2019 4:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan (Post 8526302)
just keeping some tabs on upcoming changes in ORD's international service:



adds:

Puerto Vallarta - seasonally on Volaris (starts May 5th) - UA, AA, and Frontier all currently fly to PV seasonally from ORD

Athens - seasonally on AA (starts May 10th)

Chengdu - on Hainan (starts May 10th)

Lisbon - on TAP (starts June 1st)

Barcelona - seasonally on Norwegian (starts on june 7th) - AA currently flies to Barcelona seasonally from ORD

Querétaro, Mexico - on Volaris (starts on June 16th) - Volaris currently flies this route out of MDW, but is switching it over to ORD

Tel Aviv - on El Al (starts March 22nd, 2020)



deducts:

Bogota - Avianca (ends on May 1st)

Guatemala City - Avianca (ends on June 1st) - AA will continue to fly to Guatemala City from ORD




while the Bogota loss is not cool, on balance the new international pick-ups are a very big net positive for ORD.

Alitalia also starts seasonal to FCO May 29. It runs through Sept 24.

Steely Dan Apr 2, 2019 4:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrick84 (Post 8527351)
Alitalia also starts seasonal to FCO May 29. It runs through Sept 24.

that's an existing seasonal route.

i was only listing new international routes for ORD.

Via Chicago Apr 2, 2019 5:23 PM

i was pretty close to doing that new Lisbon route. during the times i was looking to go in August it was simply much cheaper to do a layover, but if you go in October its seriously affordable (like $600 round trip)

chiphile Apr 4, 2019 10:42 PM

Column: An escalating problem: Jeanne Gang's O'Hare design looks anything but stress-free, especially for wheelchair users


By Blair Kamin
Chicago Tribune
April 4, 2019

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...406-story.html

"Gang proposes to have departing travelers ride up escalators to a raised check-in and security floor, then take escalators down to gate level."

---

Studio ORD's design is looking more like a total clusterf*** and Kamin is trying to sink it. I hope he does.

Has she ever been on an international flight or stood in line to check in bags? International passengers, especially families, have carts loads of luggage when they are checking in. A family of four with 2 kids and six suitcases going to get dropped off will have to wait in the most massively backlogged elevator line, ever, because the elevator will be the only way to get those luggage carts up to that level, especially with kids.

The most basic principle of any design is to NOT have to do that with luggage carts.

What a joke. Lightfoot needs to re-open the process, OR select the plan that was done by a real, accomplished, airport terminal design firm (foster).

It boggles me how disconnected these architects are from reality, and the fact that they couldn't hire an airport consultant to come up with practical considerations.

N830MH Apr 4, 2019 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrick84 (Post 8527351)
Alitalia also starts seasonal to FCO May 29. It runs through Sept 24.

That's good to know. Let make it happens.

LouisVanDerWright Apr 5, 2019 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiphile (Post 8530253)
Column: An escalating problem: Jeanne Gang's O'Hare design looks anything but stress-free, especially for wheelchair users


By Blair Kamin
Chicago Tribune
April 4, 2019

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...406-story.html

"Gang proposes to have departing travelers ride up escalators to a raised check-in and security floor, then take escalators down to gate level."

---

Studio ORD's design is looking more like a total clusterf*** and Kamin is trying to sink it. I hope he does.

Has she ever been on an international flight or stood in line to check in bags? International passengers, especially families, have carts loads of luggage when they are checking in. A family of four with 2 kids and six suitcases going to get dropped off will have to wait in the most massively backlogged elevator line, ever, because the elevator will be the only way to get those luggage carts up to that level, especially with kids.

The most basic principle of any design is to NOT have to do that with luggage carts.

What a joke. Lightfoot needs to re-open the process, OR select the plan that was done by a real, accomplished, airport terminal design firm (foster).

It boggles me how disconnected these architects are from reality, and the fact that they couldn't hire an airport consultant to come up with practical considerations.

Do you really believe any of these details are settled at this point? This is why I'm sick of Kamin, he should know that there are YEARS worth of actual design work to be done here. These are conceptual renderings, not bid drawings, the real design is just about to start.

woodrow Apr 5, 2019 2:15 PM

His point was that THIS design, which Gang discussed at length, was the one accepted. It isn't just conceptual, and even if it is, a MAJOR part of the design is the airy and open arrivals hall, which can only happen with raising the departure level.

That said, with the important exception of differently abled people, I think he is clutching his pearls a bit. He worries about not only those in wheelchairs and with other limits to mobility, but the general traveler. Well guess what? I am a general traveler and when I take the Blue Line I take THREE escalators or sets of stairs to get to the departure level.

I do think he doesn't like the Gang design generally and especially dislikes the selection process and is using his column to rile things up, which is irritating.

galleyfox Apr 5, 2019 5:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodrow (Post 8530800)
His point was that THIS design, which Gang discussed at length, was the one accepted. It isn't just conceptual, and even if it is, a MAJOR part of the design is the airy and open arrivals hall, which can only happen with raising the departure level.

That said, with the important exception of differently abled people, I think he is clutching his pearls a bit. He worries about not only those in wheelchairs and with other limits to mobility, but the general traveler. Well guess what? I am a general traveler and when I take the Blue Line I take THREE escalators or sets of stairs to get to the departure level.

I do think he doesn't like the Gang design generally and especially dislikes the selection process and is using his column to rile things up, which is irritating.

I agree. He fails to note that every. single. design. required escalators and elevators because O'Hare has at least 3 levels of infrastructure and that doesn't even include the CTA. There is no getting around that. Baggage Claim and pick-ups HAVE to go on the lower level. Drop-offs HAVE to enter on the upper level. Parking and CTA HAVE to use the skybridge on the 3rd level or the underground tunnel.

Every single disabled O'Hare traveler must change levels at some point in the process. The main advantage of the Gang design over others is that travelers are separated based on their direction of travel to ease congestion and collisions. And all the gates in T2 are equidistant from T1 and T3 gates.

Not to mention families with kids and lots of luggage tend to bring the family car, which means you either have to put ticketing on the skybridge level, or you force them to take an elevator down to the 2nd level.

AMWChicago Apr 5, 2019 5:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodrow (Post 8530800)
His point was that THIS design, which Gang discussed at length, was the one accepted. It isn't just conceptual, and even if it is, a MAJOR part of the design is the airy and open arrivals hall, which can only happen with raising the departure level.

That said, with the important exception of differently abled people, I think he is clutching his pearls a bit. He worries about not only those in wheelchairs and with other limits to mobility, but the general traveler. Well guess what? I am a general traveler and when I take the Blue Line I take THREE escalators or sets of stairs to get to the departure level.

I do think he doesn't like the Gang design generally and especially dislikes the selection process and is using his column to rile things up, which is irritating.

You hit the nail on the head.

glowrock Apr 5, 2019 8:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiphile (Post 8530253)
Column: An escalating problem: Jeanne Gang's O'Hare design looks anything but stress-free, especially for wheelchair users


By Blair Kamin
Chicago Tribune
April 4, 2019

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...406-story.html

"Gang proposes to have departing travelers ride up escalators to a raised check-in and security floor, then take escalators down to gate level."

---

Studio ORD's design is looking more like a total clusterf*** and Kamin is trying to sink it. I hope he does.

Has she ever been on an international flight or stood in line to check in bags? International passengers, especially families, have carts loads of luggage when they are checking in. A family of four with 2 kids and six suitcases going to get dropped off will have to wait in the most massively backlogged elevator line, ever, because the elevator will be the only way to get those luggage carts up to that level, especially with kids.

The most basic principle of any design is to NOT have to do that with luggage carts.

What a joke. Lightfoot needs to re-open the process, OR select the plan that was done by a real, accomplished, airport terminal design firm (foster).

It boggles me how disconnected these architects are from reality, and the fact that they couldn't hire an airport consultant to come up with practical considerations.

This is ridiculous. Escalators are no huge issue for anyone but the disabled/mobility impaired, and there can be multiple elevators for that purpose. As for luggage, how about having a cart-escalator for baggage carts just like the supermarkets use when there is parking above or below the store? These aren't exactly a rare thing, you know.

The opinions laid out by Kamin are garbage.

Aaron (Glowrock)

SIGSEGV Apr 5, 2019 10:25 PM

The Schipol train station in Amsterdam has these awesome ramp escalators that are really easy to use with luggage.

k1052 Apr 5, 2019 10:36 PM

I'm getting the feeling that a number of people are peeved she was picked, but not for any really defensible reason. Hence that whiny Kamin screed about how we need to not have escalators in an airport already FULL of them.

ardecila Apr 6, 2019 2:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galleyfox (Post 8531098)
I agree. He fails to note that every. single. design. required escalators and elevators because O'Hare has at least 3 levels of infrastructure and that doesn't even include the CTA. There is no getting around that. Baggage Claim and pick-ups HAVE to go on the lower level. Drop-offs HAVE to enter on the upper level. Parking and CTA HAVE to use the skybridge on the 3rd level or the underground tunnel.

Yeah, Kamin's take is definitely the take of a dude who takes cabs and Ubers to the airport all the time.

"Wait, you mean I can't go from my private car to my first class plane seat all on one level? How barbaric!!"

OrdoSeclorum Apr 6, 2019 2:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright (Post 8530359)
Do you really believe any of these details are settled at this point? This is why I'm sick of Kamin, he should know that there are YEARS worth of actual design work to be done here. These are conceptual renderings, not bid drawings, the real design is just about to start.

Plus, I was just in Madrid's airport--considered by many to be a top 10 current design--and to get from jet to luggage you simply must use elevators or several long, long escalators. I was immediately reminded of Gang's design, with the long, elevated sterile corridor to customs. They have these huge elevators that look big enough to accommodate a small theater stage and I noticed that most crew took them instead of the escalators.

F1 Tommy Apr 17, 2019 5:08 PM

ORD Springtime airline equipment change news:

Finnair is back using their A330's on service to ORD from Helsinki.

British Airways A380 is back on the London route.

Iberia will upgrade to a A350 next month.

Lufthansa has already upgraded 1 flight to the A350.

KLM is now using the 787 9 on Chicago route along with 777-300 and 747.

TAP starts service June 1st with A330 service to Lisbon

kbud Apr 19, 2019 2:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy (Post 8543577)
ORD Springtime airline equipment change news:

Finnair is back using their A330's on service to ORD from Helsinki.

British Airways A380 is back on the London route.

Iberia will upgrade to a A350 next month.

Lufthansa has already upgraded 1 flight to the A350.

KLM is now using the 787 9 on Chicago route along with 777-300 and 747.

TAP starts service June 1st with A330 service to Lisbon

I didn’t realize the 773, I thought it was the 772. Please post some pics of the 300 at ORD as I have not seen it there.

nomarandlee Apr 20, 2019 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum (Post 8531867)
Plus, I was just in Madrid's airport--considered by many to be a top 10 current design--and to get from jet to luggage you simply must use elevators or several long, long escalators. I was immediately reminded of Gang's design, with the long, elevated sterile corridor to customs. They have these huge elevators that look big enough to accommodate a small theater stage and I noticed that most crew took them instead of the escalators.

Though I haven't been to Madrid I imagine that it will resemble the most to Gangs new terminal than maybe any other in the world primarily because of Madrid's Terminal 4? bamboo wood roof which makes it very distinct.

N830MH Apr 23, 2019 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbud (Post 8546087)
I didn’t realize the 773, I thought it was the 772. Please post some pics of the 300 at ORD as I have not seen it there.

Actually, it's 777-300ER aircraft. Soon, KLM 747-400M will be retired. Replaces to 77W or 787-9 Dreamliner.

bnk Apr 23, 2019 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy (Post 8543577)
ORD Springtime airline equipment change news:

Finnair is back using their A330's on service to ORD from Helsinki.

British Airways A380 is back on the London route.

Iberia will upgrade to a A350 next month.

Lufthansa has already upgraded 1 flight to the A350.

KLM is now using the 787 9 on Chicago route along with 777-300 and 747.

TAP starts service June 1st with A330 service to Lisbon

Rare chance to see this goliath. Seeing they are pretty much obsolete.

Chicago O’Hare

The BA A380 will fly to Chicago O’Hare daily on flights BA213 & BA212 for the summer season from Sunday 31 March 2019 to Saturday 26 October 2019.


Will BA order more Airbus A380s?


This decision rests with BA’s parent company, International Airlines Group. It has options for a further 7 aircraft, which it has not yet exercised.
IAG had expressed an interest in leasing second hand Airbus A380s, but nothing has come of this. ...


https://londonairtravel.com/2019/01/...bus-a380-2019/

nomarandlee Apr 29, 2019 12:37 AM

So I think I remember reading somewhere saying that Emanuel wanted to select the full O'hare expansion designs before he leaves office, including the mid-field terminals. I also thought I remember reading where the would essentially be a consolation prize for those who didn't win the main terminal design.

So provided that Gang's designs would be out of the running what designs for the mid-field terminals would people like to see win out?

emathias Apr 29, 2019 5:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum (Post 8531867)
Plus, I was just in Madrid's airport--considered by many to be a top 10 current design--and to get from jet to luggage you simply must use elevators or several long, long escalators. I was immediately reminded of Gang's design, with the long, elevated sterile corridor to customs. They have these huge elevators that look big enough to accommodate a small theater stage and I noticed that most crew took them instead of the escalators.

Madrid's airport is crazy spread out. It's absurdly inconvenient for it's size.

Will O' Wisp Apr 29, 2019 6:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emathias (Post 8555534)
Madrid's airport is crazy spread out. It's absurdly inconvenient for it's size.

I'm looking this thing over on google maps and it's absurdly inconvenient for any size. Looks they started off with a set of 60s-70s style curvilinear terminals and two crossing runways on the south end, and then instead of replacing them like like any sane planner they build a new 80s-90s style concourse with a mid-field satellite just to the north. Except there were already a set of roadways in the way so instead of moving them they built the satellite concourse an absurd distance away. So now you have three widely spread out terminal complexes that make transfers needlessly difficult.

OrdoSeclorum Apr 29, 2019 2:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emathias (Post 8555534)
Madrid's airport is crazy spread out. It's absurdly inconvenient for it's size.

I agree. That's one of the reason's I suspect that Gang's design won. With the gates lining a wedge-shaped terminal, it's easy to get right to the gate from the retail/dining space or to gain egress to Terminals 1 or 3, without having to walk down a long spur.

Chicagoguy May 1, 2019 9:13 AM

Asiana Airlines Cuts Chicago, Other Unprofitable Routes

This is a bit of a blow to what has been a rather good year for ORD. I wonder if United may consider taking up this route seeing as Asiana is a fellow Star Alliance member?

"Asiana Airlines will be discontinuing their flight between Seoul Incheon and Chicago as of October 27, 2019."

https://onemileatatime.com/asiana-ai...chicago-route/

F1 Tommy May 1, 2019 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicagoguy (Post 8558227)
Asiana Airlines Cuts Chicago, Other Unprofitable Routes

This is a bit of a blow to what has been a rather good year for ORD. I wonder if United may consider taking up this route seeing as Asiana is a fellow Star Alliance member?

"Asiana Airlines will be discontinuing their flight between Seoul Incheon and Chicago as of October 27, 2019."

https://onemileatatime.com/asiana-ai...chicago-route/

Although the passenger flights may be unprofitable they will keep the cargo routes. I am not sure what their load factors(to lazy to check) are but they do have direct competition on the route from Korean Air. If the below comment is 100% accurate I would look for a Korean flight aircraft upgrade, maybe to a 7478I again or even a A380.

Quote:

Asiana is in financial trouble, because of the mother group Kumho. They are cutting the Seoul-Chicago route, not because the occupancy rate is too low to make profit, since it has average of 80% of occupancy, but because their occupancy rate for SFO and LAX is average of 90%, so Chicago route is not so profitable compare to LAX and SFO route. Another reason is there is severe competition with Korean Air for Chicago route. So they want to cut it after summer high season, when so many Korean students return to US schools.

N830MH May 2, 2019 5:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy (Post 8558261)
Although the passenger flights may be unprofitable they will keep the cargo routes. I am not sure what their load factors(to lazy to check) are but they do have direct competition on the route from Korean Air. If the below comment is 100% accurate I would look for a Korean flight aircraft upgrade, maybe to a 7478I again or even a A380.

Quote:

Asiana is in financial trouble, because of the mother group Kumho. They are cutting the Seoul-Chicago route, not because the occupancy rate is too low to make profit, since it has average of 80% of occupancy, but because their occupancy rate for SFO and LAX is average of 90%, so Chicago route is not so profitable compare to LAX and SFO route. Another reason is there is severe competition with Korean Air for Chicago route. So they want to cut it after summer high season, when so many Korean students return to US schools.

You can ask Chicago Aviation fans on Facebook group. Go for it! They will tell you why.

takascar May 7, 2019 2:28 PM

When will construction start
 
Don't see any specific time lines on the ORD21 website about when specific phases will start.

Was at O'Hare yesterday and still don't see anything starting over by Terminal 5. Anyone know when they'll actually start work on the extension to Terminal 5?

RockfordSoxFan May 16, 2019 12:42 PM

Not ORD or MDW news but Chicago-Rockford Intl, Pinnacle/Amazon is adding another 500 jobs.

https://www.mystateline.com/news/pin...obs/2005137131

F1 Tommy May 16, 2019 2:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockfordSoxFan (Post 8575021)
Not ORD or MDW news but Chicago-Rockford Intl, Pinnacle/Amazon is adding another 500 jobs.

https://www.mystateline.com/news/pin...obs/2005137131

Good news for northern Illinois. High cost ramp leases and landing fees(Chicago is the highest BIG airport for landing fees in the country) make this seem like a good move and plan. Rockford is becoming Chicago's 3rd airport(or 4th if you count Milwaukee) :)

Now all we need is a regional airport authority to take over control of all three airports like they do in every other big city metro area in the USA so they can work together rather than against each other.

Chicagoguy May 18, 2019 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy (Post 8575141)
Good news for northern Illinois. High cost ramp leases and landing fees(Chicago is the highest BIG airport for landing fees in the country) make this seem like a good move and plan. Rockford is becoming Chicago's 3rd airport(or 4th if you count Milwaukee) :)

Now all we need is a regional airport authority to take over control of all three airports like they do in every other big city metro area in the USA so they can work together rather than against each other.

I would love to see Rockford gain more popularity for discount carriers. I think RFD would be a great option for Spirit, Southwest, Sun Country, or Frontier to expand their Chicago-area services.

ardecila May 20, 2019 2:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicagoguy (Post 8577362)
I would love to see Rockford gain more popularity for discount carriers. I think RFD would be a great option for Spirit, Southwest, Sun Country, or Frontier to expand their Chicago-area services.

Would much rather see Gary attract the LCCs. They've already got the South Shore adjacent to the airport, and it is already surrounded by Chicagoland unlike Rockford which is a signficant distance outside the bleeding edge of sprawl. The recent runway expansion means that all but the biggest jets can land... the biggest problem there is simply the dysfunctional government of Gary which controls the airport with 4 out of 7 seats on the board.

Ideally the State of Indiana could step in and offer to help fund a speculative terminal (on the south side of the airfield, with a skybridge over the toll road to South Shore platforms) in exchange for one or two board seats being stripped away from Gary... they just cut a similar deal with South Shore, an honest-to-god commercial airport along the South Shore could seriously boost ridership and justify the state's investment in the railroad.

jpIllInoIs May 20, 2019 3:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 8578428)
Would much rather see Gary attract the LCCs. They've already got the South Shore adjacent to the airport, and it is already surrounded by Chicagoland unlike Rockford which is a signficant distance outside the bleeding edge of sprawl. The recent runway expansion means that all but the biggest jets can land... the biggest problem there is simply the dysfunctional government of Gary which controls the airport with 4 out of 7 seats on the board.

Ideally the State of Indiana could step in and offer to help fund a speculative terminal (on the south side of the airfield, with a skybridge over the toll road to South Shore platforms) in exchange for one or two board seats being stripped away from Gary... they just cut a similar deal with South Shore, an honest-to-god commercial airport along the South Shore could seriously boost ridership and justify the state's investment in the railroad.

(RFD) Rockford is serving a purpose as a large cargo hub. Amazon-UPS and others are finding it a perfect location to access the Chicagoland market. And its PAX market is the typical Florida/Carribean/Sunbelt market that can thrive with multiple flights a week to several popular destinations.

I cant believe that it is the fault of the Gary (GYY) governance that this airport has not matured. The GM at GYY is the former GM at RFD so he knows the market. Why have vacation airlines of Allegiant and Apple rejected GYY? SWA could set up shop their, Frontier, Spirit even Delta could operate out of GYY. I think it is simply the marketplace at work. The market around GYY is non-existent, the closer to GYY the fewer flying passenger. As the crow fly further from GYY the closer the resident is to other more attractive airports, including South Bend on the eastern side of GYY.

The fact is that SWA and Frontier and Delta are finding that Milwaukee Mitchell is more to their liking to access a much larger base of passengers. And they do not see the need to add another port in the Chicago region. Delta is at ORD, MDW and MKE. AA & UA & Frontier are at MKE and ORD. SWA is at MDW & MKE. Even Volaris operates at MKE and MDW. Nothing is preventing any operator from setting up shop in GYY - nothing is attracting them either.

Tom In Chicago May 20, 2019 7:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpIllInoIs (Post 8578714)
(RFD) Rockford is serving a purpose as a large cargo hub. Amazon-UPS and others are finding it a perfect location to access the Chicagoland market. And its PAX market is the typical Florida/Carribean/Sunbelt market that can thrive with multiple flights a week to several popular destinations.

I cant believe that it is the fault of the Gary (GYY) governance that this airport has not matured. The GM at GYY is the former GM at RFD so he knows the market. Why have vacation airlines of Allegiant and Apple rejected GYY? SWA could set up shop their, Frontier, Spirit even Delta could operate out of GYY. I think it is simply the marketplace at work. The market around GYY is non-existent, the closer to GYY the fewer flying passenger. As the crow fly further from GYY the closer the resident is to other more attractive airports, including South Bend on the eastern side of GYY.

The fact is that SWA and Frontier and Delta are finding that Milwaukee Mitchell is more to their liking to access a much larger base of passengers. And they do not see the need to add another port in the Chicago region. Delta is at ORD, MDW and MKE. AA & UA & Frontier are at MKE and ORD. SWA is at MDW & MKE. Even Volaris operates at MKE and MDW. Nothing is preventing any operator from setting up shop in GYY - nothing is attracting them either.

All these things are interesting, but the fact that GYY is not in the state of Illinois is probably it's biggest burden. . . there's no incentive to promote an out of state airport when it's home state of Indiana doesn't even seem to care about it. . .

. . .

Jim in Chicago May 23, 2019 4:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago (Post 8578947)
All these things are interesting, but the fact that GYY is not in the state of Illinois is probably it's biggest burden. . . there's no incentive to promote an out of state airport when it's home state of Indiana doesn't even seem to care about it. . .

. . .

Even with all the issues outlined in the above postings, I also think the very fact that it's in Gary is a turn-off for many pax and potential airlines. It just has a huge bad rep. Even though you'd hop right on the toll road or the South Shore (also not exactly an award-winning option) no one wants to fly to Gary. So many airlines have tried and failed, that I'd be skittish about starting flights there.

Now, if Indiana could get their act together and the prices were cheap enough traffic would emerge. While Gary withers away, there is a huge population in the surrounding areas, and the option of quick transit into Chicago after a cheap-o flight could work.

Certainly, I'd rather see Gary develop than to bring Peotone back to life - I thought is was dead, but now some are talking about it again.

F1 Tommy May 23, 2019 7:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim in Chicago (Post 8582069)

Certainly, I'd rather see Gary develop than to bring Peotone back to life - I thought is was dead, but now some are talking about it again.



Peotone is also in the path of the worst weather around the Chicagoland area. To bad the foolish lawmakers in Indiana cannot come to an agreement for northern Indiana and the Gary airport. That airport could become a cashcow, but instead they live and love central and southern Indiana and neglect the north. Maybe that's for the best as do we really want Indiana getting part of the Illinois tax base??

Steely Dan May 23, 2019 7:49 PM

peotone is such a monumentally bone-headed idea.

why won't it just die. forever.

Tom In Chicago May 23, 2019 9:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan (Post 8582405)
peotone is such a monumentally bone-headed idea.

why won't it just die. forever.

It is dead. . . for some it's just not politically convenient to acknowledge that fact. . .

. . .

Jim in Chicago May 24, 2019 2:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy (Post 8582375)
Peotone is also in the path of the worst weather around the Chicagoland area. To bad the foolish lawmakers in Indiana cannot come to an agreement for northern Indiana and the Gary airport. That airport could become a cashcow, but instead they live and love central and southern Indiana and neglect the north. Maybe that's for the best as do we really want Indiana getting part of the Illinois tax base??

True this - every time a storm rolls through it heads right for that area (except those that head north). A veritable storm magnet, it seems.

ardecila May 24, 2019 6:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy (Post 8582375)
Peotone is also in the path of the worst weather around the Chicagoland area. To bad the foolish lawmakers in Indiana cannot come to an agreement for northern Indiana and the Gary airport. That airport could become a cashcow, but instead they live and love central and southern Indiana and neglect the north. Maybe that's for the best as do we really want Indiana getting part of the Illinois tax base??

Sure we do. If passenger, it won't be a huge airport, so not a lot of spillover growth.. just check out all the "growth" around the Rockford or South Bend airports. If freight-only, it might be a net gain for the region, but it also might end up being a magnet for firms who are currently based in older, first-ring suburbs. That's just shifting the tax base around, and damaging existing communities and civic finances in the process.

The region as a whole will win if a third airport, be it for passenger or freight, is well-connected to the existing transit system and brings any growth to benefit existing communities instead of being isolated in a cornfield. The challenge for leaders is to find a way around the corruption and the image problems that drove investment away from Gary in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago (Post 8582526)
It is dead. . . for some it's just not politically convenient to acknowledge that fact. . .

. . .

Our governor is the one "refusing to acknowledge" the death of the Peotone plan, and he is the one with the power to bring it back from the dead. Maybe it's just a trick to get votes from south suburban reps, but those reps clearly think Peotone's time has come, and apparently they can't think of any other ideas for economic development beyond this idiotic plan that will only hasten the decline of existing, struggling suburbs. It's weird that somehow a leftward lurch in politics is pushing us toward more destructive urban sprawl, but welcome to Illinois I guess... :shrug:

BVictor1 May 24, 2019 6:43 PM

https://chicago.suntimes.com/metro-s...ight-191-crash

O’Hare western access tollway planned for field where Flight 191 crashed 40 years ago

40-acre parcel where American Airlines jet went down is critical in plan for long-promised entry to airport

By David Roeder@RoederDavid May 24, 2019, 11:01am CDT

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/I7Ds...3_100005.0.jpg

Quote:

Forty years ago, when American Airlines Flight 191 crashed just beyond O’Hare Airport’s boundaries, the jetliner struck earth — not the trailer park next door, nor the oil tankers nearby, nor any of the many commercial buildings in the area.

What the DC-10 hit on May 25, 1979, was a field north of Touhy Avenue and east of Elmhurst Road.

To this day, the land remains an open field. Even as the airport and surrounding suburbs have grown, the property where 273 people died has remained as it was.

But that could change in the next few years, with plans for a highway to cut through the roughly 40 acres that now serves as a natural memorial, marshy and peaceful, the dandelions and shrubs looking as they might have looked on that awful day 40 years ago Sunday.

Why wasn’t the land ever developed? And why did the site never get even a memorial plaque or statue? The crash was, after all, the deadliest U.S. aviation disaster until the 9/11 terror attacks.


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